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Old 01-16-2004, 04:22 AM   #3016
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Quote:
Originally posted by ammdrew
okay I hate to get technical here but ackerman is not bump steer, moving the arms up or down in the same location will change how the front toe reacts through the suspension movement, to change ackerman you need to change mounting positions, like shorter or longer arms, this also would require a new servo saver to compensate for the different angle created between the two side.. the 710 has fixed ackerman.. but you can adjust bump steer by moving the arm mount form top to bottom, and in on and off road bump steer is usually never considered a good thing....
Yeah I hate to be technical too...
I have more fun in my racing hours...

Im trying to put my 710 to its limit.
Do you think that 10 deg. split is good ? Im not ackerman expert (in fact Im no Rudolf sons ) so please tell me.

About the bump steer is usually never considered a good thing.. Im not so sure about this.
But in front suspension of a car that having a caster angle, bump steer is always present. How much ?? than we will start a geometri design thread
In rear, we must ask Rene.... coz he was the first man to put this in rear.
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Old 01-16-2004, 04:25 AM   #3017
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Default Re: Steering Arms

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Originally posted by JABRONI
Originally Posted By Goldfinger:

I kind of feel the same way, and appears to make sense !!
I would also like some input on this issue !!! Ideas/Tips/Trick/Good/Bad ????
Dont get it wrong, it is not a good or bad thing, it just different and all is about balance. Be patient.
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Old 01-16-2004, 06:27 AM   #3018
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Default Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand

Quote:
Originally posted by InitialD
This is what Bruno Heeramans has got to say about Ackerman...

A large Ackermann angle (ball joints above the servo saver) gives you smooth, predictable steering. You'll be able to round the corners nicely without all four tires trying to force the car in a different direction. A smaller Ackermann angle (ball joints below the servo saver) on the other hand can give you more aggressive steering, aspecially entering the corners. However, it isn't guaranteed that the front won't wash out now and then. Neither is a smooth cornering radius. It can be useful an high-traction tracks, if your car tends to oversteer in the middle of the corners, and you'd like a little more turn-in. Not to mention the psychological impact on the person driving right in front of you when you're entering corners.
This is only usefull info if you define large and small.....
We didn't design the car without thinking about ackerman. There is a reason the balls are below the saver Try both ways on the track and see if there is a difference!
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Old 01-16-2004, 06:29 AM   #3019
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Quote:
Originally posted by ammdrew
okay I hate to get technical here but ackerman is not bump steer, moving the arms up or down in the same location will change how the front toe reacts through the suspension movement, to change ackerman you need to change mounting positions, like shorter or longer arms, this also would require a new servo saver to compensate for the different angle created between the two side.. the 710 has fixed ackerman.. but you can adjust bump steer by moving the arm mount form top to bottom, and in on and off road bump steer is usually never considered a good thing....
Although you are right in that moving the balls on top introduces bump steer, it also changes the ackerman slightly because the servo saver and steering hub do not rotate around the same axis (due to camber, caster and offset).
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Old 01-16-2004, 06:34 AM   #3020
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Default Re: Shock Oil and Piston Hole Relation

Quote:
Originally posted by InitialD
Rene / Julius or anybody,

Is 35wt shock oil with 4 holes the same as 40wt shock oil with 5 holes in terms of shock damping?

How does the 5 hole shock (the fifth hole being 1.2 mm in diameter if I'm not mistaken) throw into the equation? Why was this done? Thanks.
No it is not the same. Because part of the oil goes through the holes and part around the piston.

The 5th hole is the same size as the others. It was done so you'd have 2-5 holes instead of 1-4 holes. This means the adjusment steps are smaller. The initial damping is slightly softer (always 2 holes).
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Old 01-16-2004, 07:20 AM   #3021
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand

Quote:
Originally posted by Julius
This is only usefull info if you define large and small.....
We didn't design the car without thinking about ackerman. There is a reason the balls are below the saver Try both ways on the track and see if there is a difference!
Thanks for the pointers Julius. Will try mounting the ball linkage below the servo saver this weekend.
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Old 01-16-2004, 07:31 AM   #3022
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Default Re: Re: Shock Oil and Piston Hole Relation

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Originally posted by Julius
The 5th hole is the same size as the others.
Are the holes the same size (1 mm) as the previous older 1-4 hole shocks?

If I recall, the extra 5th hole on the piston shocks was slightly larger. I can't remember where I put the pic which I thought I took in the hotel room in Thailand while preparing the shocks in the ungodly hour !
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Old 01-16-2004, 08:06 AM   #3023
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Quote:
Originally posted by InitialD
Thaasman's the man !
Yeah right!
Glad we helped rcjavy with he's problem......
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Old 01-16-2004, 08:25 AM   #3024
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Default Re: Re: Re: Shock Oil and Piston Hole Relation

Quote:
Originally posted by InitialD
Are the holes the same size (1 mm) as the previous older 1-4 hole shocks?

If I recall, the extra 5th hole on the piston shocks was slightly larger. I can't remember where I put the pic which I thought I took in the hotel room in Thailand while preparing the shocks in the ungodly hour !
One piston was not changed. If I remember correctly only the moving part of the piston got an extra hole. That extra hole is slightly larger than the old ones, but because the corresponding hole in the other part of the piston is the regular size it makes no difference.
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Old 01-16-2004, 08:51 AM   #3025
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand

Quote:
Originally posted by Julius
Try both ways on the track and see if there is a difference!
This is what I "feel":
On top is absolutely better low speed steering (completely off throttle), bellow is better when partial throttle has to be applied to corners faster. Out corner is about the same, not enough steering.

Truly, when starting this ackerman thingy, my point is 25 deg turn for inside tire is more than enough. But in middle of corner when throttle has to be applied (partial/full) the weight is fully loaded in outside tire. And as you can see, they only able to turns 15 to 17 deg(max).I can only gain 17 deg. with all caster spacer in front.
Which is in my opinion... is not enough.

Julius, is there any chance that Serpent will release optional ackerman arm ? (But dont do 710R.. )
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Old 01-16-2004, 09:03 AM   #3026
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand

Quote:
Originally posted by GoldFinger
Truly, when starting this ackerman thingy, my point is 25 deg turn for inside tire is more than enough. But in middle of corner when throttle has to be applied (partial/full) the weight is fully loaded in outside tire. And as you can see, they only able to turns 15 to 17 deg(max).I can only gain 17 deg. with all caster spacer in front.
Which is in my opinion... is not enough.
The question is. Would you get more steering with more steering lock?
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Old 01-16-2004, 09:14 AM   #3027
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand

Quote:
Originally posted by Julius
The question is. Would you get more steering with more steering lock?
Pls describe more about "steering lock". I dont understand on this.
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Old 01-16-2004, 09:29 AM   #3028
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand

Quote:
Originally posted by GoldFinger
Pls describe more about "steering lock". I dont understand on this.
Steering lock = steering angle.
Maybe getting more steering lock/angle will only give more slip on the front wheels and no increase in steering.
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Old 01-16-2004, 09:49 AM   #3029
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael's Setup Sheet for Srinakarin Track in Thailand

Quote:
Originally posted by Julius
Steering lock = steering angle.
Maybe getting more steering lock/angle will only give more slip on the front wheels and no increase in steering.
...yes I agree, more steering angle is not always mean more steering. The traction amount will answer exactly how much we could gain. But at least we have an option.

Yesterday, me and Pyramid is trying to figure out how to change this ackerman. But we ended up that there is no space anymore.
The ball will hit the pulley or bulkhead if we change from current config.
I guess we have to work out in other area.
Have you ever try to swap the knuckles? is there any changes?
If I remember in 705,nothing changes. Only wider track widht.
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Old 01-16-2004, 10:24 AM   #3030
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Quote:
Originally posted by Julius
Although you are right in that moving the balls on top introduces bump steer, it also changes the ackerman slightly because the servo saver and steering hub do not rotate around the same axis (due to camber, caster and offset).
This is about as easy to visualize as a 5th dimension!
Thank God for CAD!
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