4LikesViper RC -
01-14-2014 | 08:16 AM
#9692
Currently looking at getting the vtx8, I've had both a RX8 and MMP go out in my tekno. My main concern is being able to limit torque while not affecting top speed. I really liked how the RX8 was setup in the hotwire app, and the MMP was horrible at torque limiting. Is the viper easy to adjust torque?
I plan to pick up the combo ESC and Program card, my other concern is how smooth or liner is the throttle profile? When comparing the RX8 to MMP, the RX8 felt more aggressive, were as the MMP felt a little more laid back. I preferred the MMP honestly but its other features really bothered me. I know you can adjust the throttle profile but both the RX8 and MMP were set to a straight liner profile. I hope that makes sense, I'm not a very good driver, and the aggressive nature of the RX8 did not help me to much.
One last question, I promise. How is the Cut off setup? The RX8 Gen 1 only had one setting of 6v where as the MMP could be fine tuned to different settings. Does the viper allow fine tuning of the Cut off volts?
I plan to pick up the combo ESC and Program card, my other concern is how smooth or liner is the throttle profile? When comparing the RX8 to MMP, the RX8 felt more aggressive, were as the MMP felt a little more laid back. I preferred the MMP honestly but its other features really bothered me. I know you can adjust the throttle profile but both the RX8 and MMP were set to a straight liner profile. I hope that makes sense, I'm not a very good driver, and the aggressive nature of the RX8 did not help me to much.
One last question, I promise. How is the Cut off setup? The RX8 Gen 1 only had one setting of 6v where as the MMP could be fine tuned to different settings. Does the viper allow fine tuning of the Cut off volts?
01-14-2014 | 08:37 AM
#9693
Currently looking at getting the vtx8, I've had both a RX8 and MMP go out in my tekno. My main concern is being able to limit torque while not affecting top speed. I really liked how the RX8 was setup in the hotwire app, and the MMP was horrible at torque limiting. Is the viper easy to adjust torque?
I plan to pick up the combo ESC and Program card, my other concern is how smooth or liner is the throttle profile? When comparing the RX8 to MMP, the RX8 felt more aggressive, were as the MMP felt a little more laid back. I preferred the MMP honestly but its other features really bothered me. I know you can adjust the throttle profile but both the RX8 and MMP were set to a straight liner profile. I hope that makes sense, I'm not a very good driver, and the aggressive nature of the RX8 did not help me to much.
One last question, I promise. How is the Cut off setup? The RX8 Gen 1 only had one setting of 6v where as the MMP could be fine tuned to different settings. Does the viper allow fine tuning of the Cut off volts?
I plan to pick up the combo ESC and Program card, my other concern is how smooth or liner is the throttle profile? When comparing the RX8 to MMP, the RX8 felt more aggressive, were as the MMP felt a little more laid back. I preferred the MMP honestly but its other features really bothered me. I know you can adjust the throttle profile but both the RX8 and MMP were set to a straight liner profile. I hope that makes sense, I'm not a very good driver, and the aggressive nature of the RX8 did not help me to much.
One last question, I promise. How is the Cut off setup? The RX8 Gen 1 only had one setting of 6v where as the MMP could be fine tuned to different settings. Does the viper allow fine tuning of the Cut off volts?
I've ran Castle MMP and MMM, Tekin RX8's and now the Viper.
Cutoff voltage can be adjusted to the 10th using the Progauge.
Adjusting punch control and throttle PWM will give you a very smooth, or very aggressive throttle feel, as well as using either a linear, or convex/concave profile.
Not to mention, its solid as a rock. I have 2 of them that have been in use for almost a year now running in an RC8 E buggy, and a Tekno SCT.
01-14-2014 | 08:42 AM
#9694
I'm wondering if i'm lost to much front drive with this setup.
Could the
5. Forward Power – 75%
be holding it back or the
2. Throttle Punch – 95%
My radio epa is set on 100%
I just need a little more power in some spots.
ELECTRONICS
ESC: VTX8
Battery:
Servo(s): Radiopost
Radio: 4pks-r
Motor: Tekin 2050
Pinion:17
Spur 44
1 Profile one
4WD 1/8 with 4S Li-Po and 4-pole motor
Brake
1. Brake Strength – 85%
2. Brake PWM Frequency– 12000hz
3. Brake Curve – Linear
a. Smart Brake System
• Dynamic Brake
o Max Brake Strength – 0%
o Dynamic Curve – Linear
o Trigger RPM – 12000 RPM
• Drag Brake – 30%
Throttle
1. Throttle PWM Frequency – 16000hz
2. Throttle Punch – 95%
3. Throttle Curve – -Exp2
4. Dead Band – Middle
Motor Power
1. Acceleration Boost – not on
2. Top Speed Timing – not on
Misc Control
1. Run Mode – Race Blinking
2. Motor Direction – Normal
3. Motor Type – 4 Pole
4. SBEC Voltage – 7.2v
5. Forward Power – 75%
6. Reverse Power – not on
7. Auto Power Off – 4min
Protection
1. Battery Cut Off – 12.8v
2. Motor Temperature Cut – 250F
3. ESC Temperature Cut – 250F
or could it be my diff set up.
I'm running 4f 4c 750cst rear.
My track is Blown out bad reason for the light diff oil setup.
Thanx for the help.
Could the
5. Forward Power – 75%
be holding it back or the
2. Throttle Punch – 95%
My radio epa is set on 100%
I just need a little more power in some spots.
ELECTRONICS
ESC: VTX8
Battery:
Servo(s): Radiopost
Radio: 4pks-r
Motor: Tekin 2050
Pinion:17
Spur 44
1 Profile one
4WD 1/8 with 4S Li-Po and 4-pole motor
Brake
1. Brake Strength – 85%
2. Brake PWM Frequency– 12000hz
3. Brake Curve – Linear
a. Smart Brake System
• Dynamic Brake
o Max Brake Strength – 0%
o Dynamic Curve – Linear
o Trigger RPM – 12000 RPM
• Drag Brake – 30%
Throttle
1. Throttle PWM Frequency – 16000hz
2. Throttle Punch – 95%
3. Throttle Curve – -Exp2
4. Dead Band – Middle
Motor Power
1. Acceleration Boost – not on
2. Top Speed Timing – not on
Misc Control
1. Run Mode – Race Blinking
2. Motor Direction – Normal
3. Motor Type – 4 Pole
4. SBEC Voltage – 7.2v
5. Forward Power – 75%
6. Reverse Power – not on
7. Auto Power Off – 4min
Protection
1. Battery Cut Off – 12.8v
2. Motor Temperature Cut – 250F
3. ESC Temperature Cut – 250F
or could it be my diff set up.
I'm running 4f 4c 750cst rear.
My track is Blown out bad reason for the light diff oil setup.
Thanx for the help.
01-14-2014 | 08:46 AM
#9695
I'm wondering if i'm lost to much front drive with this setup.
Could the
5. Forward Power 75%
be holding it back or the
2. Throttle Punch 95%
My radio epa is set on 100%
I just need a little more power in some spots.
ELECTRONICS
ESC: VTX8
Battery:
Servo(s): Radiopost
Radio: 4pks-r
Motor: Tekin 2050
1 Profile one
4WD 1/8 with 4S Li-Po and 4-pole motor
Brake
1. Brake Strength 85%
2. Brake PWM Frequency 12000hz
3. Brake Curve Linear
a. Smart Brake System
Dynamic Brake
o Max Brake Strength 0%
o Dynamic Curve Linear
o Trigger RPM 12000 RPM
Drag Brake 30%
Throttle
1. Throttle PWM Frequency 16000hz
2. Throttle Punch 95%
3. Throttle Curve -Exp2
4. Dead Band Middle
Motor Power
1. Acceleration Boost not on
2. Top Speed Timing not on
Misc Control
1. Run Mode Race Blinking
2. Motor Direction Normal
3. Motor Type 4 Pole
4. SBEC Voltage 7.2v
5. Forward Power 75%
6. Reverse Power not on
7. Auto Power Off 4min
Protection
1. Battery Cut Off 12.8v
2. Motor Temperature Cut 250F
3. ESC Temperature Cut 250F
or could it be my diff set up.
I'm running 4f 4c 750cst rear.
My track is Blown out bad reason for the light diff oil setup.
Thanx for the help.
Could the
5. Forward Power 75%
be holding it back or the
2. Throttle Punch 95%
My radio epa is set on 100%
I just need a little more power in some spots.
ELECTRONICS
ESC: VTX8
Battery:
Servo(s): Radiopost
Radio: 4pks-r
Motor: Tekin 2050
1 Profile one
4WD 1/8 with 4S Li-Po and 4-pole motor
Brake
1. Brake Strength 85%
2. Brake PWM Frequency 12000hz
3. Brake Curve Linear
a. Smart Brake System
Dynamic Brake
o Max Brake Strength 0%
o Dynamic Curve Linear
o Trigger RPM 12000 RPM
Drag Brake 30%
Throttle
1. Throttle PWM Frequency 16000hz
2. Throttle Punch 95%
3. Throttle Curve -Exp2
4. Dead Band Middle
Motor Power
1. Acceleration Boost not on
2. Top Speed Timing not on
Misc Control
1. Run Mode Race Blinking
2. Motor Direction Normal
3. Motor Type 4 Pole
4. SBEC Voltage 7.2v
5. Forward Power 75%
6. Reverse Power not on
7. Auto Power Off 4min
Protection
1. Battery Cut Off 12.8v
2. Motor Temperature Cut 250F
3. ESC Temperature Cut 250F
or could it be my diff set up.
I'm running 4f 4c 750cst rear.
My track is Blown out bad reason for the light diff oil setup.
Thanx for the help.
01-14-2014 | 08:48 AM
#9696
I'm wondering if i'm lost to much front drive with this setup.
Could the
5. Forward Power – 75%
be holding it back or the
2. Throttle Punch – 95%
My radio epa is set on 100%
I just need little more power in some spots.
ELECTRONICS
ESC: VTX8
Battery:
Servo(s): Radiopost
Radio: 4pks-r
Motor: Tekin 2050
1 Profile one
4WD 1/8 with 4S Li-Po and 4-pole motor
Brake
1. Brake Strength – 85%
2. Brake PWM Frequency– 12000hz
3. Brake Curve – Linear
a. Smart Brake System
• Dynamic Brake
o Max Brake Strength – 0%
o Dynamic Curve – Linear
o Trigger RPM – 12000 RPM
• Drag Brake – 30%
Throttle
1. Throttle PWM Frequency – 16000hz
2. Throttle Punch – 95%
3. Throttle Curve – -Exp2
4. Dead Band – Middle
Motor Power
1. Acceleration Boost – not on
2. Top Speed Timing – not on
Misc Control
1. Run Mode – Race Blinking
2. Motor Direction – Normal
3. Motor Type – 4 Pole
4. SBEC Voltage – 7.2v
5. Forward Power – 75%
6. Reverse Power – not on
7. Auto Power Off – 4min
Protection
1. Battery Cut Off – 12.8v
2. Motor Temperature Cut – 250F
3. ESC Temperature Cut – 250F
or could it be my diff set up.
I'm running 4f 4c 750cst rear.
My track is Blown out bad reason for the light diff oil setup.
Thanx for the help.
Could the
5. Forward Power – 75%
be holding it back or the
2. Throttle Punch – 95%
My radio epa is set on 100%
I just need little more power in some spots.
ELECTRONICS
ESC: VTX8
Battery:
Servo(s): Radiopost
Radio: 4pks-r
Motor: Tekin 2050
1 Profile one
4WD 1/8 with 4S Li-Po and 4-pole motor
Brake
1. Brake Strength – 85%
2. Brake PWM Frequency– 12000hz
3. Brake Curve – Linear
a. Smart Brake System
• Dynamic Brake
o Max Brake Strength – 0%
o Dynamic Curve – Linear
o Trigger RPM – 12000 RPM
• Drag Brake – 30%
Throttle
1. Throttle PWM Frequency – 16000hz
2. Throttle Punch – 95%
3. Throttle Curve – -Exp2
4. Dead Band – Middle
Motor Power
1. Acceleration Boost – not on
2. Top Speed Timing – not on
Misc Control
1. Run Mode – Race Blinking
2. Motor Direction – Normal
3. Motor Type – 4 Pole
4. SBEC Voltage – 7.2v
5. Forward Power – 75%
6. Reverse Power – not on
7. Auto Power Off – 4min
Protection
1. Battery Cut Off – 12.8v
2. Motor Temperature Cut – 250F
3. ESC Temperature Cut – 250F
or could it be my diff set up.
I'm running 4f 4c 750cst rear.
My track is Blown out bad reason for the light diff oil setup.
Thanx for the help.
I always run 100% forward power, but adjust the punch to traction. Right now im at 65% punch for loose to medium traction and its still a touch too much to where I actually have to modulate power with my throttle finger ( its still learning
)Try that and see how it feels, what pinion are you running in what vehicle?
Also, try running a -exp 1 on throttle profile.
Also, why are you running that much drag brake in a 4wd?!? Does it nose dive like crazy?
I've never ran drag brake in a 4wd, only use it in my 2wd buggy. Try turning that off.
For reference, I run a 1900kv motor with a 20t pinion in an RC8.2 and it has plenty of grunt off the bottom.
01-14-2014 | 08:59 AM
#9697
The VTX8 is one of the easiest to program, and smoothest esc's I have used.
I've ran Castle MMP and MMM, Tekin RX8's and now the Viper.
Cutoff voltage can be adjusted to the 10th using the Progauge.
Adjusting punch control and throttle PWM will give you a very smooth, or very aggressive throttle feel, as well as using either a linear, or convex/concave profile.
Not to mention, its solid as a rock. I have 2 of them that have been in use for almost a year now running in an RC8 E buggy, and a Tekno SCT.
I've ran Castle MMP and MMM, Tekin RX8's and now the Viper.
Cutoff voltage can be adjusted to the 10th using the Progauge.
Adjusting punch control and throttle PWM will give you a very smooth, or very aggressive throttle feel, as well as using either a linear, or convex/concave profile.
Not to mention, its solid as a rock. I have 2 of them that have been in use for almost a year now running in an RC8 E buggy, and a Tekno SCT.
01-14-2014 | 09:09 AM
#9698
epa is set on 100% Change when needed
BUGGY: TEKNO EB48.2
ELECTRONICS
ESC: VTX8
Battery:
Servo(s): Radiopost
Radio: 4pks-r
Motor: Tekin 2050
Internal Gear ratio: 4.3
Pinion:17
Spur 44
Final Ratio 11.13
34440 rpm
Speed 42
1 Profile one
4WD 1/8 with 4S Li-Po and 4-pole motor
Brake
1. Brake Strength 85%
2. Brake PWM Frequency 12000hz
3. Brake Curve Linear
a. Smart Brake System
Dynamic Brake
o Max Brake Strength 0%
o Dynamic Curve Linear
o Trigger RPM 12000 RPM
Drag Brake 0% CHANGE
Throttle
1. Throttle PWM Frequency 16000hz
2. Throttle Punch 75% CHANGE *(adjust the punch to traction)
3. Throttle Curve -Exp1 CHANGE
4. Dead Band Middle
Motor Power
1. Acceleration Boost not on
2. Top Speed Timing not on
Misc Control
1. Run Mode Race Blinking
2. Motor Direction Normal
3. Motor Type 4 Pole
4. SBEC Voltage 7.2v
5. Forward Power 100% CHANGE
6. Reverse Power not on
7. Auto Power Off 4min
Protection
1. Battery Cut Off 12.8v
2. Motor Temperature Cut 250F
3. ESC Temperature Cut 250F
Also, why are you running that much drag brake in a 4wd?!? Does it nose dive like crazy?
Just what I had it on.
Does it nose dive like crazy?
Now that you say that I was thinking it was the bad track.
I will take out the Drag brake
Thank you Doogie and Wildcat
Maybe 16 pinion will help too
Internal Gear ratio: 4.3
Pinion:16
Spur 44
Final Ratio 11.83
34440 rpm
Speed 40
To get little more pop
But it maybe like you all said the forward power was down
BUGGY: TEKNO EB48.2
ELECTRONICS
ESC: VTX8
Battery:
Servo(s): Radiopost
Radio: 4pks-r
Motor: Tekin 2050
Internal Gear ratio: 4.3
Pinion:17
Spur 44
Final Ratio 11.13
34440 rpm
Speed 42
1 Profile one
4WD 1/8 with 4S Li-Po and 4-pole motor
Brake
1. Brake Strength 85%
2. Brake PWM Frequency 12000hz
3. Brake Curve Linear
a. Smart Brake System
Dynamic Brake
o Max Brake Strength 0%
o Dynamic Curve Linear
o Trigger RPM 12000 RPM
Drag Brake 0% CHANGE
Throttle
1. Throttle PWM Frequency 16000hz
2. Throttle Punch 75% CHANGE *(adjust the punch to traction)
3. Throttle Curve -Exp1 CHANGE
4. Dead Band Middle
Motor Power
1. Acceleration Boost not on
2. Top Speed Timing not on
Misc Control
1. Run Mode Race Blinking
2. Motor Direction Normal
3. Motor Type 4 Pole
4. SBEC Voltage 7.2v
5. Forward Power 100% CHANGE
6. Reverse Power not on
7. Auto Power Off 4min
Protection
1. Battery Cut Off 12.8v
2. Motor Temperature Cut 250F
3. ESC Temperature Cut 250F
Also, why are you running that much drag brake in a 4wd?!? Does it nose dive like crazy?
Just what I had it on.
Does it nose dive like crazy?
Now that you say that I was thinking it was the bad track.
I will take out the Drag brake
Thank you Doogie and Wildcat
Maybe 16 pinion will help too
Internal Gear ratio: 4.3
Pinion:16
Spur 44
Final Ratio 11.83
34440 rpm
Speed 40
To get little more pop
But it maybe like you all said the forward power was down
01-14-2014 | 09:56 AM
#9699
Turning the forward power down is a big adjustment. If you need to "calm" down the power, start with a lower Punch. And if your track is really blown out don't be afraid to try really low like 40. Because this will limit wheel spin but keep you at full power down the straights. Now if its too fast down the straight, maybe limit Forward Power slightly, but 75 is pretty low.
01-14-2014 | 10:19 AM
#9700
What a great race weekend for Team Viper!!!
DHI Cup -- Denmark
Marc Fischer - 5th Mod Tourning Car
CRCRC Midwest Champs
JP Richards - 5th 2wd Mod (A Main in 4wd Buggy also)
Paul Sinclair - 9th 2wd mod (won the B to bump to the A Main)
Neil Pestka - 7th 2wd SC Stock
January Jam - RC Madness
Mark Smyka - TQ and win in F1, 1/12 17.5 and World GT
Brandon Dyche - 7th Stadium Truck at NW Tour Series at TCRC
Bunch of great club race wins around the country!!!!!
Join the Viper revolution!!!
DHI Cup -- Denmark
Marc Fischer - 5th Mod Tourning Car
CRCRC Midwest Champs
JP Richards - 5th 2wd Mod (A Main in 4wd Buggy also)
Paul Sinclair - 9th 2wd mod (won the B to bump to the A Main)
Neil Pestka - 7th 2wd SC Stock
January Jam - RC Madness
Mark Smyka - TQ and win in F1, 1/12 17.5 and World GT
Brandon Dyche - 7th Stadium Truck at NW Tour Series at TCRC
Bunch of great club race wins around the country!!!!!
Join the Viper revolution!!!
01-14-2014 | 10:31 AM
#9701
Turning the forward power down is a big adjustment. If you need to "calm" down the power, start with a lower Punch. And if your track is really blown out don't be afraid to try really low like 40. Because this will limit wheel spin but keep you at full power down the straights. Now if its too fast down the straight, maybe limit Forward Power slightly, but 75 is pretty low.
Just more fine tuning on my side.
01-14-2014 | 11:49 AM
#9702
Turning the forward power down is a big adjustment. If you need to "calm" down the power, start with a lower Punch. And if your track is really blown out don't be afraid to try really low like 40. Because this will limit wheel spin but keep you at full power down the straights. Now if its too fast down the straight, maybe limit Forward Power slightly, but 75 is pretty low.
Can the Viper limit the motor's torque output? I'm not talking about starting power or punch*. I'm interested in lowering the torque over the hole power band while still maintaining RPM's.
The RX8 calls it current limiter, but in essence it just lowers the torque of the motor makes while keeping overall speed.
*My understanding of punch is the limiting of starting power. When set to low, the ESC limites the current sent to the motor to keep the starting power low. When off the motor pulls as much as it needs or your batteries can give.
01-14-2014 | 11:51 AM
#9703
This makes me want to ask for some clarification.
Can the Viper limit the motor's torque output? I'm not talking about starting power or punch. I'm interested in lowering the torque over the hole power band while still maintaining RPM's.
The RX8 calls it current limiter, but in essence it just lowers the torque of the motor makes while keeping overall speed.
Can the Viper limit the motor's torque output? I'm not talking about starting power or punch. I'm interested in lowering the torque over the hole power band while still maintaining RPM's.
The RX8 calls it current limiter, but in essence it just lowers the torque of the motor makes while keeping overall speed.
01-14-2014 | 11:55 AM
#9704
ok, sweet thank you. It can get confusing between manufactures. The nomenclature used for one ESC or manufacture is very different for another one.
01-14-2014 | 12:04 PM
#9705
epa is set on 100% Change when needed
BUGGY: TEKNO EB48.2
ELECTRONICS
ESC: VTX8
Battery:
Servo(s): Radiopost
Radio: 4pks-r
Motor: Tekin 2050
Internal Gear ratio: 4.3
Pinion:17
Spur 44
Final Ratio 11.13
34440 rpm
Speed 42
1 Profile one
4WD 1/8 with 4S Li-Po and 4-pole motor
Brake
1. Brake Strength 85%
2. Brake PWM Frequency 12000hz
3. Brake Curve Linear
a. Smart Brake System
Dynamic Brake
o Max Brake Strength 0%
o Dynamic Curve Linear
o Trigger RPM 12000 RPM
Drag Brake 0% CHANGE
Throttle
1. Throttle PWM Frequency 16000hz
2. Throttle Punch 75% CHANGE *(adjust the punch to traction)
3. Throttle Curve -Exp1 CHANGE
4. Dead Band Middle
Motor Power
1. Acceleration Boost not on
2. Top Speed Timing not on
Misc Control
1. Run Mode Race Blinking
2. Motor Direction Normal
3. Motor Type 4 Pole
4. SBEC Voltage 7.2v
5. Forward Power 100% CHANGE
6. Reverse Power not on
7. Auto Power Off 4min
Protection
1. Battery Cut Off 12.8v
2. Motor Temperature Cut 250F
3. ESC Temperature Cut 250F
Also, why are you running that much drag brake in a 4wd?!? Does it nose dive like crazy?
Just what I had it on.
Does it nose dive like crazy?
Now that you say that I was thinking it was the bad track.
I will take out the Drag brake
Thank you Doogie and Wildcat
Maybe 16 pinion will help too
Internal Gear ratio: 4.3
Pinion:16
Spur 44
Final Ratio 11.83
34440 rpm
Speed 40
To get little more pop
But it maybe like you all said the forward power was down
BUGGY: TEKNO EB48.2
ELECTRONICS
ESC: VTX8
Battery:
Servo(s): Radiopost
Radio: 4pks-r
Motor: Tekin 2050
Internal Gear ratio: 4.3
Pinion:17
Spur 44
Final Ratio 11.13
34440 rpm
Speed 42
1 Profile one
4WD 1/8 with 4S Li-Po and 4-pole motor
Brake
1. Brake Strength 85%
2. Brake PWM Frequency 12000hz
3. Brake Curve Linear
a. Smart Brake System
Dynamic Brake
o Max Brake Strength 0%
o Dynamic Curve Linear
o Trigger RPM 12000 RPM
Drag Brake 0% CHANGE
Throttle
1. Throttle PWM Frequency 16000hz
2. Throttle Punch 75% CHANGE *(adjust the punch to traction)
3. Throttle Curve -Exp1 CHANGE
4. Dead Band Middle
Motor Power
1. Acceleration Boost not on
2. Top Speed Timing not on
Misc Control
1. Run Mode Race Blinking
2. Motor Direction Normal
3. Motor Type 4 Pole
4. SBEC Voltage 7.2v
5. Forward Power 100% CHANGE
6. Reverse Power not on
7. Auto Power Off 4min
Protection
1. Battery Cut Off 12.8v
2. Motor Temperature Cut 250F
3. ESC Temperature Cut 250F
Also, why are you running that much drag brake in a 4wd?!? Does it nose dive like crazy?
Just what I had it on.
Does it nose dive like crazy?
Now that you say that I was thinking it was the bad track.
I will take out the Drag brake
Thank you Doogie and Wildcat
Maybe 16 pinion will help too
Internal Gear ratio: 4.3
Pinion:16
Spur 44
Final Ratio 11.83
34440 rpm
Speed 40
To get little more pop
But it maybe like you all said the forward power was down