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Old 05-23-2007, 02:15 PM   #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii
I think the jury is still out on the best and most appropriate method to break in this engine. Some idle it, run rich on the track and then lean it - and some use WOT. Even though the engine is Picco based, does that mean that all Picco based engines should be broken in the same way? Are all the pistons and sleeves made of the same material?

We all know how important it is to properly break-in the engine. Choose the wrong method or do a certain method incorrectly and you'll have nothing but trouble.
This is kinda Redundant information...
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Old 05-23-2007, 02:33 PM   #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan
This is not good. That light colored ring around your piston should actually be on the very top of the piston and nt way down there. It means that the taper of the piston is off and the compression is built where the ring is. This engine will not make any serious power.
That is because these engines can't be broken-in with any WOT method...I tried it myself with my first JLR, and didn't last much without it giving me problems. The Picco Evo2 Edo. I gtot afterwards I run it in according to Picco's instructions and made a world of difference. These engines don't have the traditional high pinch that other engines have, so it needs very little time to break-in.
Don’t confuse compression with pinch; Sleeve Pinch is not that important contrary to popular belief. The question is how well it seals as soon as the piston starts to close the exhaust port and if it holds compression after you roll it to top dead center.
Place a few drops of after run oil trough the top (removing plug), then place plug in place, then roll piston to top dead center and listen and look for air bubbles through exhaust port. If there’s none, then your engine still has compression, even if it has no pinch.


RUN-IN

Proper run-in of the engine is a very important step in ensuring that you get the highest performance and lifetime of your engine. Take your time for proper run-in. Do not use run-in benches, but use your car for run-in. Use the same fuel as you will be using for the life of the engine.
Special run-in fuel is not needed. If your engine doesn’t start easily you may try loosen the glow plug by ˝-turn to decompress the engine and try again. Don’t forget to tighten the glow-plug
again once the engine started!
Procedure:
• Start the engine and set the main-needle very rich, i.e. excessive smoke coming from the muffler.
• Let the engine idle for 2mins first to warm it up.
• Now start driving your car, it will be slow and sluggish, but this is an important step.
• Do not allow the engine to rev-up too high, run the engine at half speed on the straightaway.
• The engine should not be too cold and not too hot during run-in, 70-80°C (160-180°F) is perfect.
• Let the engine cool down for 15mins after each tank during the run-in period.
• We recommend doing so for 5 tanks of fuel before you start tuning your engine.

Regarding carburator: Don't use Nova carbs you will have flame out problems due to excesive temp on body. These engines need composite bodied carbs (Sirio, STS).

Tuning the engine: I agree 100% with RayJ's findings, that is how i run it.
I run the LSN very rich at 8 to 8.5 turns out. This coupled with running the clutch to the point where it slips, then just back it enough so the clutch doesn't slip,eliminates any lean bogging the engine had. Then just tune your HSN accordingly for top speed.

AFM
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Old 05-23-2007, 02:49 PM   #408
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Now this isnt redundant info. LOL. Yeah I had a feeling the wot method did this motor in. I should have more strictly followed the instruction manual. The tip that pointed to this was the quicker than usual break-in. Sadly I had no time to break in the motor and had to race within the hour. So I used the wot method to get it done quickly.

Thanks AFM!
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Old 05-23-2007, 03:02 PM   #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artificial-I
Now this isnt redundant info. LOL. Yeah I had a feeling the wot method did this motor in. I should have more strictly followed the instruction manual. The tip that pointed to this was the quicker than usual break-in. Sadly I had no time to break in the motor and had to race within the hour. So I used the wot method to get it done quickly.

Thanks AFM!
Trust me on OS Rocket. Send him your P/S/R set and you won't regret spending the 15 bucks. After he's done, you'll have an engine that will last for a long time.
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Old 05-23-2007, 04:41 PM   #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelico
Hey AI, would u happen to have the part # for the rear bearing also. At that price it would be better to change both bearings when putting in another piston and sleeve. Thanks.
Boca Bearing rear Picco Ceramic bearing:

MR6801C-TH9/C3


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Old 05-23-2007, 04:51 PM   #411
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Default Running in the JLR

AFM kinda hit the nail on the head with running in the JLR. The piston and sleeve fit is not nearly as tight as many of the motors out there now. I personally don't understand why so many mfr's do this since it puts a huge strain on the rod bushings and wrist pin bushings. Alot of people wonder if the JLR is not so tight will it last as long? I'm on my second gallon with it, and I'm running the original rod and everything else. Compression is fine..... and I do a test similar to afm's.......(afew drops of oil in the compression chamber turn the motor to close to TDC and observe if there are air bubbles at the sides of the piston skirt wanting to leak out. Some leakage is okay alot is not.

My LSN settings are similar to AFM's with 8 turns out. In fact that's almost stock from the factory I believe. It seems rich but it's not. It's what the motor wants. Just give it what it wants. These motors are like children finicky sometimes but happy when you give them what they want.

Looking at Artificial-I's piston brought another thought to mind. Outside of the misplaced compression ring.........what kind of fuel are you running? What I really noticed is that there are almost no carbon deposits on the piston. That makes me wonder if your fuel has enough castor in it. I know there are raging debates about synthetic vs Castor oil as lubricants but I am a strong advocate of CASTOR!! I run Tornado fuel...........I don't know for sure what the castor content is but I'm thinking it's probably about 40% of the total oil content of 9%. The compression due to carbonization in my motor is actually going up! Nothing lubricates our engines at top end like castor. Previous to Tornado I ran Byrons fuel(also high castor content) My engines always last a long time. This "my engine needs to be perfectly clean inside" is just plain wrong. Carbonization is actually a GOOD thing.

I have run the low castor fuels before, and my motors never lasted very long. I run Tornado or Byrons because I know my engines will last.

I also experimented abit with compression on the motor. I actually took out a .004 shim, and the motor never fussed one bit(total head clearance .018)
No detonation......and the motor picked up abit of bottom end.
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Old 05-23-2007, 05:39 PM   #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
AFM kinda hit the nail on the head with running in the JLR. The piston and sleeve fit is not nearly as tight as many of the motors out there now. I personally don't understand why so many mfr's do this since it puts a huge strain on the rod bushings and wrist pin bushings. Alot of people wonder if the JLR is not so tight will it last as long? I'm on my second gallon with it, and I'm running the original rod and everything else. Compression is fine..... and I do a test similar to afm's.......(afew drops of oil in the compression chamber turn the motor to close to TDC and observe if there are air bubbles at the sides of the piston skirt wanting to leak out. Some leakage is okay alot is not.

My LSN settings are similar to AFM's with 8 turns out. In fact that's almost stock from the factory I believe. It seems rich but it's not. It's what the motor wants. Just give it what it wants. These motors are like children finicky sometimes but happy when you give them what they want.

Looking at Artificial-I's piston brought another thought to mind. Outside of the misplaced compression ring.........what kind of fuel are you running? What I really noticed is that there are almost no carbon deposits on the piston. That makes me wonder if your fuel has enough castor in it. I know there are raging debates about synthetic vs Castor oil as lubricants but I am a strong advocate of CASTOR!! I run Tornado fuel...........I don't know for sure what the castor content is but I'm thinking it's probably about 40% of the total oil content of 9%. The compression due to carbonization in my motor is actually going up! Nothing lubricates our engines at top end like castor. Previous to Tornado I ran Byrons fuel(also high castor content) My engines always last a long time. This "my engine needs to be perfectly clean inside" is just plain wrong. Carbonization is actually a GOOD thing.

I have run the low castor fuels before, and my motors never lasted very long. I run Tornado or Byrons because I know my engines will last.

I also experimented abit with compression on the motor. I actually took out a .004 shim, and the motor never fussed one bit(total head clearance .018)
No detonation......and the motor picked up abit of bottom end.
Wildcat , 20% w/ 10% oil, which uses the klotz oil package and yes all my motors are very clean when running this stuff. Theres a few tiny tarnish spots at the top of the piston but thats about it.

Here is a blip from wildcats website:

Oil content, Why is this important? The oil in the fuel provides many things to the engine all of which are important and none of which is more important than the other.

Why does Wildcat use MORE oil than the competitions fuels? Oil is the life blood of the engine. It cools, lubricates, seals, and acts as a binder. The higher oil content actually acts to produce more power. This is accomplished by better sealing of the engine, this in turn builds superior compression. The higher oil content better removes the heat via the heat higher heat capacitance of the degummed racing castor Wildcat uses in our fuels.

Why are some car fuels priced so high, are these better fuels? No, the higher price usually reflects paying for simply the "NAME" and the price reflects what those companies have to charge to support their sponsored drivers. Remember, when you see the big name sponsored guys your paying for their ride.

Why do some fuels burn dirty leaving a nasty brown goo behind? This is due to the quality of the castor used. Standard grades such as Bakers AA and AAA have natural resins in them, these are the components that leave the brown varnish and goo behind after combustion. Wildcat uses the highest quality (and more expensive) Klotz BeNol Degummed Racing Castor in which the harmful resins are removed which reduces the carboning, varnish, and glazing. This process also increases the film strength and load carrying capacity of the oil by over 25% thus providing better protection for your engine. One great feature of Wildcat Fuels is their clean burning performance.

I have been very picky about my fuels and I truly think wildcat has a good package going. But thats just me. I think byrons is also a good fuel. Both of them list their nitro ratings and so forth. They use very high quality products which produce the results you see.
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Old 05-23-2007, 07:56 PM   #413
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Hey Guys......apart from othe Mega plugs, are there any other brand plugs that can be used with the Red Dot? Thanks.
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Old 05-23-2007, 08:01 PM   #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afm
Boca Bearing rear Picco Ceramic bearing:

MR6801C-TH9/C3


AFM
Thanks AFM.
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Old 05-23-2007, 08:03 PM   #415
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Here are some plugs you can use in your JL Red Dot engine
IDM glow plug
OFNA/PICCO glow plug
PICCO glow plugs
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Old 05-23-2007, 08:21 PM   #416
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LRP-Associated plugs are working OK for me- I believe they are just repackaged Piccos....
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Old 05-23-2007, 08:50 PM   #417
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They look totally different if compared to the picco plug.
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Old 05-23-2007, 09:28 PM   #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artificial-I
Wildcat , 20% w/ 10% oil, which uses the klotz oil package and yes all my motors are very clean when running this stuff. Theres a few tiny tarnish spots at the top of the piston but thats about it.

Why does Wildcat use MORE oil than the competitions fuels?.....

Why do some fuels burn dirty leaving a nasty brown goo behind? This is due to the quality of the castor used. Wildcat uses the highest quality (and more expensive) Klotz BeNol Degummed Racing Castor in which the harmful resins are removed which reduces the carboning, varnish, and glazing.....

I have been very picky about my fuels and I truly think wildcat has a good package going. But thats just me.......
While I won't argue about the quality of the Klotz oils beeing used on Wildcat's fuel, I will desagree with the statement that more oil is better. I think that more oil produces more friction thus higher temp on today's tight tolerance high revving engines.
I can assure you that most Italian manufacturers today suggest 9% total oil content.
The second statement about using degummed castor oil...well most top brands of fuel do so, but what Wildcat doesn't say is how much of the total 10% oil in their fuel is Castor oil....and that is where the difference might be, more Castor more protection to high temp friction loses off oter oils....hell in Europe the top brand fuels almost use only Castor oil...and degummed or not Castor oil will allways live black deposits on the long run, and if the fuel has more off it, surely faster....and there is nothing wrong with it, when you service your engine efter every race you just clean it out...big deal.

The bottom line here is that I would use a fuel with max 9% total oil and the one with more Castor oil in the blend with the synthetic....maybe 50-50.

Now if you ask me what fuel do I use....It's MAXY'S FUEL Clear Formula

AFM
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Old 05-24-2007, 05:26 PM   #419
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Very informative thread fellas! Took me an hour to read all through everything here but well worth it. Picked up my JLR Picco for my new CRT .5 and was wondering where i can buy the Picco P6TC plugs? Having a hard time locating them in Canada. Failing that, what is the equivalent plug in a Ofna/Picco plug? Thanks!
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Old 05-24-2007, 05:31 PM   #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Kamikaze
They look totally different if compared to the picco plug.
Its a wild plug , it has iridium / platinum coil.
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