416 WE made in China
09-04-2009, 02:18 AM
#436
At my place.This car was hot for a while especially for those who are switching from their old top to the phonton,they used this car temperory.But they spent about 65% of the original price of the original kit to replace parts and stuff.Total up include the parts and the china kit, i think they could just buy a original.The only thing that i broke in My original 416WE is a knuckle and 4 suspension blocks which got bent but now i have ordered the split blocks so i think it would be more durable now.I have raced the car since March
09-07-2009, 12:59 AM
#437
Tech Adept
Reading the Trf416 thread , these are exactly the same parts that the original unit needs replacing when building ( as suggested by one or two drivers )
http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...416we-431.html
09-07-2009, 03:37 AM
#438
Those 416 copies are just the virtually same "by looking at photos" and possibly functionally same, but reliability, build quality..are way........ worse then you might think of 
Try it yourself, if you want to fool by those adv photos and 100% grantee, you won't get what you pay for!
Soft fibre glass chassis, damper stay, soft screws through out, wrong material fibre drive belts, bad machined Aluminium parts, cr@p anodizing through out, and the list goes on...
Not to say bushless, it wont even handle the power of a 23turn motor.
Try it yourself, if you want to fool by those adv photos and 100% grantee, you won't get what you pay for!
Soft fibre glass chassis, damper stay, soft screws through out, wrong material fibre drive belts, bad machined Aluminium parts, cr@p anodizing through out, and the list goes on...
Not to say bushless, it wont even handle the power of a 23turn motor.
09-07-2009, 05:22 AM
#439
Tech Adept
Those 416 copies are just the virtually same "by looking at photos" and possibly functionally same, but reliability, build quality..are way........ worse then you might think of
Try it yourself, if you want to fool by those adv photos and 100% grantee, you won't get what you pay for!
Soft fibre glass chassis, damper stay, soft screws through out, wrong material fibre drive belts, bad machined Aluminium parts, cr@p anodizing through out, and the list goes on...
Not to say bushless, it wont even handle the power of a 23turn motor.
Try it yourself, if you want to fool by those adv photos and 100% grantee, you won't get what you pay for!
Soft fibre glass chassis, damper stay, soft screws through out, wrong material fibre drive belts, bad machined Aluminium parts, cr@p anodizing through out, and the list goes on...
Not to say bushless, it wont even handle the power of a 23turn motor.
I dont think you loose money on this car, but you def dont gain either!
By the time you add every important part, barring the bottom deck and the bulkheads, the money left to pay for the real one would enable you to buy a real chassis plate!
Think of the car as a 'pay as you go' rc car LOL!
09-07-2009, 05:45 AM
#440
I wasnt going to post in here anymore- mainly because i dont really want to be associated with supporting the car because of its taboo origin.
BUT- let me clear a few things up for you all.
I ran the car yesterday in 13.5 rubber.
#1- Nothing broke. And the last time i drove an RC car was april (offroad) last time i drove a touring car was jan 4th. and the last time i drove rubber tires was 2001. Needless to say, i was a bit rusty and had quite a few rubs. The only thing that could be considered a break, was the front spindles- both upper kingpins pulled out- i replaced both with Tamiya parts.
#2- You cant machine junk aluminum all that well. All of the pieces on my car look good to me, and when holding it to an original 416, i couldnt see any notable difference. The owner of the other car did not know either- and i did not mention it.
#3- The car performed. I have had a lot of cars over the years. This car was quite dialed. I Qualified 2nd, only bested by 1 second, by the track owners kid who has gotten quite fast- and recently returned from the Tamiya NA finals. I ended up winning the main.
How did I prep the car? Im lazy. I pulled the CV's all apart and greased them. I rebuilt the diff, shortened the screw. Replaced the Orings in the shocks with Tamiya clear, 1 oring setup. Put losi 50 in the front, losi 40 in the rear.
and because i have a gross of them still, I used losi 20lb front spring and 17.5lb rear. The car was quite easy to drive, and like i said-- won.
used suspension locations from Cory Whiteman NEGS.
start out by loosening all of the chassis screws, setting the car on a flat surface and then with the car on the flat surface= tighten the top deck, then do the bottom.
the only thing i find strange about the car is that it seems to have Metric threaded screws, with a 5/64" head. Now i know that is close to 2mm, but my 2mm wrench does not fit in most of the screws, and the ballstuds do not fit tamiya cups.
The Tamiya manual calls for a 5x.5mm shim in the diff, which is not in there. I took 5mm of shims out of the bell crank and used them there as it would be easier to replace them, than tare down the diff at the track. BUT- i couldnt get the diff to work with .5mm in it. I think i finally ended up with .2mm of shims (2 shims)
the arms on the car feel just like the tamiya ones i bought.. although i didnt go in depth in messing with them.
the caster blocks are very soft and flexible- i was worried about this- until the other 416 I saw at the track had the exact same feel.
100% of the binding in my car was caused by Ballcups. I replaced all ballcups with losi JRXS-R capture cups- the tamiya ones i bought did not fit the balls. EDIT= the only problem with this setup is that I cannot use the very longest setting for the camber link. I am going to mill the bulkhead a tiny bit so it works. Show pics later this week.
I had to open up the 5th and 6th battery slot to accomodate my new hyperdrive lipo trays.
Other than the diff screw being in backwards, the car was built fine for a starting point.
I even ran the stock spur gear. I bought a new one that i have yet to install, ONLY because i have no idea how many teeth are on the stock one. for 13.5, i put a 42 tooth pinon on and left it there all day. Motor temp was about 165-170 every race and the car was plenty fast. I think i needed a tad more gear.
Im not going to tell anyone not to buy the car. I have 2 of them. BUT- i will be buying a real 416 in the near future. There are a lot of TCS races at fastcats and i think i would enjoy competing in them.
BUT- let me clear a few things up for you all.
I ran the car yesterday in 13.5 rubber.
#1- Nothing broke. And the last time i drove an RC car was april (offroad) last time i drove a touring car was jan 4th. and the last time i drove rubber tires was 2001. Needless to say, i was a bit rusty and had quite a few rubs. The only thing that could be considered a break, was the front spindles- both upper kingpins pulled out- i replaced both with Tamiya parts.
#2- You cant machine junk aluminum all that well. All of the pieces on my car look good to me, and when holding it to an original 416, i couldnt see any notable difference. The owner of the other car did not know either- and i did not mention it.
#3- The car performed. I have had a lot of cars over the years. This car was quite dialed. I Qualified 2nd, only bested by 1 second, by the track owners kid who has gotten quite fast- and recently returned from the Tamiya NA finals. I ended up winning the main.
How did I prep the car? Im lazy. I pulled the CV's all apart and greased them. I rebuilt the diff, shortened the screw. Replaced the Orings in the shocks with Tamiya clear, 1 oring setup. Put losi 50 in the front, losi 40 in the rear.
and because i have a gross of them still, I used losi 20lb front spring and 17.5lb rear. The car was quite easy to drive, and like i said-- won.
used suspension locations from Cory Whiteman NEGS.
start out by loosening all of the chassis screws, setting the car on a flat surface and then with the car on the flat surface= tighten the top deck, then do the bottom.
the only thing i find strange about the car is that it seems to have Metric threaded screws, with a 5/64" head. Now i know that is close to 2mm, but my 2mm wrench does not fit in most of the screws, and the ballstuds do not fit tamiya cups.
The Tamiya manual calls for a 5x.5mm shim in the diff, which is not in there. I took 5mm of shims out of the bell crank and used them there as it would be easier to replace them, than tare down the diff at the track. BUT- i couldnt get the diff to work with .5mm in it. I think i finally ended up with .2mm of shims (2 shims)
the arms on the car feel just like the tamiya ones i bought.. although i didnt go in depth in messing with them.
the caster blocks are very soft and flexible- i was worried about this- until the other 416 I saw at the track had the exact same feel.
100% of the binding in my car was caused by Ballcups. I replaced all ballcups with losi JRXS-R capture cups- the tamiya ones i bought did not fit the balls. EDIT= the only problem with this setup is that I cannot use the very longest setting for the camber link. I am going to mill the bulkhead a tiny bit so it works. Show pics later this week.
I had to open up the 5th and 6th battery slot to accomodate my new hyperdrive lipo trays.
Other than the diff screw being in backwards, the car was built fine for a starting point.
I even ran the stock spur gear. I bought a new one that i have yet to install, ONLY because i have no idea how many teeth are on the stock one. for 13.5, i put a 42 tooth pinon on and left it there all day. Motor temp was about 165-170 every race and the car was plenty fast. I think i needed a tad more gear.
Im not going to tell anyone not to buy the car. I have 2 of them. BUT- i will be buying a real 416 in the near future. There are a lot of TCS races at fastcats and i think i would enjoy competing in them.
Last edited by Keith Billanti; 09-07-2009 at 09:12 AM.
09-07-2009, 06:40 AM
#441
Thanx for the info Keith
Do you think IT's real Carbon Fibre Chassis ?
Cheers
Do you think IT's real Carbon Fibre Chassis ?
Cheers
09-07-2009, 07:03 AM
#442
I should also say that im not really one who should be making durability claims. I rarely break parts. I can say that i did have some wrecks and the car survived.
fast lap yesterday- i think was a 13.0xx and unfortunately, it was not mine. I did have at least one 13.1 and a boat load of 13.2. They dont post results on their site- or i would go into more detail.
the car was very consistent, it came off the track the same as it went on (on a tweak board).
I was thinking of putting a tamiya top deck on.. or milling a few thousandths off of this one.
I want different swaybars. the front one that comes with is very thick.. i ran no bars.
09-07-2009, 09:06 AM
#444
about 5 years ago, i decided i wanted all blue tools.. so i bought five 2.5mm integy wrenches and changed all of the tips to the sizes i needed.. lol.. all integy. 3 months later they offered an all blue set
the tool I use on the car now is a very old thorp amber handled 5/64".. probably has 200,000 miles on it..lol. I think i stabbed someone with it once too.. its bulletproof.
09-07-2009, 08:41 PM
#445
Tech Initiate
3 other racers from our tracks has got onto the 416we(C) bandwagon after weighing the pros and cons. Now we have 6 clones running on the tracks and having loads of fun.
09-08-2009, 01:39 AM
#446
I think you are wrong.
I actually would not be surprised at all if this was a Tamiya product (not necessarily officially recognised). This is a very frequent global strategy of big companies. A number of global companies did this kind of thing in SE Asia decades ago. Toyota went to Indonesia (and soon other companies- Suzuki, Daihatsu, etc- followed suit in other SE Asian countries) because they recognised the huge markets these countries have. They produced locally a cheap version of their product line for rich (but small market) countries and this allowed them to tap huge revenues building the local economy as they went along as well. On the back of the cheap product, they then imported their entire range including the top and luxury range in those countries for people with real money. After the early cars motorised the nation, they took it up a notch and now they produce a new line of cheap cars that don't look that cheap any more and are optioned like their equivalents on our markets (power everything, climate control, air bags, etc). Tamiya could do the same and it would not surprise me at all. In europe shrinking economies (read rich western countries) have shifted all manufacturing eastwards until it all went to China some time ago. It is just the economic rationale of our time. There are also plenty of well-garnished wallets in China (I hear they want to buy Aston Martin) these days and I am sure many will buy the real deal if it was available. Plus, they'll want to go racing and if the cheap car doesn't cut it, they'll have to buy the other one. Now if Tamiya sells a million more cars a year, just imagine how much the price will go down (I am not sure they can produce that many, actually, but let's say they could).
Even if the car is just a shameless copy the result is the same. They won't sell it outside China because they know they can't, but the hobby will spread in China (and other neighbouring countries), and once good drivers will rise, they'll buy the real deal to go and compete overseas. This again will allow Tamiya and others to enter the market with the results I have shown above.
They can't. That would be copyright infringement.
I actually would not be surprised at all if this was a Tamiya product (not necessarily officially recognised). This is a very frequent global strategy of big companies. A number of global companies did this kind of thing in SE Asia decades ago. Toyota went to Indonesia (and soon other companies- Suzuki, Daihatsu, etc- followed suit in other SE Asian countries) because they recognised the huge markets these countries have. They produced locally a cheap version of their product line for rich (but small market) countries and this allowed them to tap huge revenues building the local economy as they went along as well. On the back of the cheap product, they then imported their entire range including the top and luxury range in those countries for people with real money. After the early cars motorised the nation, they took it up a notch and now they produce a new line of cheap cars that don't look that cheap any more and are optioned like their equivalents on our markets (power everything, climate control, air bags, etc). Tamiya could do the same and it would not surprise me at all. In europe shrinking economies (read rich western countries) have shifted all manufacturing eastwards until it all went to China some time ago. It is just the economic rationale of our time. There are also plenty of well-garnished wallets in China (I hear they want to buy Aston Martin) these days and I am sure many will buy the real deal if it was available. Plus, they'll want to go racing and if the cheap car doesn't cut it, they'll have to buy the other one. Now if Tamiya sells a million more cars a year, just imagine how much the price will go down (I am not sure they can produce that many, actually, but let's say they could).
Even if the car is just a shameless copy the result is the same. They won't sell it outside China because they know they can't, but the hobby will spread in China (and other neighbouring countries), and once good drivers will rise, they'll buy the real deal to go and compete overseas. This again will allow Tamiya and others to enter the market with the results I have shown above.
They can't. That would be copyright infringement.
Anyway people need to stop saying China makes crappy stuff because they can make good stuff too.
For example Giant bicycles are very high quality and very competitive.
Another example is Fenix flashlights, very high quality flashlights.
It's only a matter of time until they start designing really competitive R/C cars/trucks. They already make a lot of quality hop ups for various cars out there. Designing their own chassis isn't rocket science. China has a lot of very good engineers. They could easily design an R/C car if they really wanted to. If you really look closely at a basic competition level R/C chassis it's quite simple. Carbon plates, shock towers, basic knuckles, suspension arms yada yada yada. Heck even I could design the chassis myself and hire a mechanical engineer to verfiy the weak points.
09-08-2009, 08:11 AM
#448
09-08-2009, 02:53 PM
#449
Tech Adept
I wasnt going to post in here anymore- mainly because i dont really want to be associated with supporting the car because of its taboo origin.
BUT- let me clear a few things up for you all.
I ran the car yesterday in 13.5 rubber.
#1- Nothing broke. And the last time i drove an RC car was april (offroad) last time i drove a touring car was jan 4th. and the last time i drove rubber tires was 2001. Needless to say, i was a bit rusty and had quite a few rubs. The only thing that could be considered a break, was the front spindles- both upper kingpins pulled out- i replaced both with Tamiya parts.
#2- You cant machine junk aluminum all that well. All of the pieces on my car look good to me, and when holding it to an original 416, i couldnt see any notable difference. The owner of the other car did not know either- and i did not mention it.
#3- The car performed. I have had a lot of cars over the years. This car was quite dialed. I Qualified 2nd, only bested by 1 second, by the track owners kid who has gotten quite fast- and recently returned from the Tamiya NA finals. I ended up winning the main.
How did I prep the car? Im lazy. I pulled the CV's all apart and greased them. I rebuilt the diff, shortened the screw. Replaced the Orings in the shocks with Tamiya clear, 1 oring setup. Put losi 50 in the front, losi 40 in the rear.
and because i have a gross of them still, I used losi 20lb front spring and 17.5lb rear. The car was quite easy to drive, and like i said-- won.
used suspension locations from Cory Whiteman NEGS.
start out by loosening all of the chassis screws, setting the car on a flat surface and then with the car on the flat surface= tighten the top deck, then do the bottom.
the only thing i find strange about the car is that it seems to have Metric threaded screws, with a 5/64" head. Now i know that is close to 2mm, but my 2mm wrench does not fit in most of the screws, and the ballstuds do not fit tamiya cups.
The Tamiya manual calls for a 5x.5mm shim in the diff, which is not in there. I took 5mm of shims out of the bell crank and used them there as it would be easier to replace them, than tare down the diff at the track. BUT- i couldnt get the diff to work with .5mm in it. I think i finally ended up with .2mm of shims (2 shims)
the arms on the car feel just like the tamiya ones i bought.. although i didnt go in depth in messing with them.
the caster blocks are very soft and flexible- i was worried about this- until the other 416 I saw at the track had the exact same feel.
100% of the binding in my car was caused by Ballcups. I replaced all ballcups with losi JRXS-R capture cups- the tamiya ones i bought did not fit the balls. EDIT= the only problem with this setup is that I cannot use the very longest setting for the camber link. I am going to mill the bulkhead a tiny bit so it works. Show pics later this week.
I had to open up the 5th and 6th battery slot to accomodate my new hyperdrive lipo trays.
Other than the diff screw being in backwards, the car was built fine for a starting point.
I even ran the stock spur gear. I bought a new one that i have yet to install, ONLY because i have no idea how many teeth are on the stock one. for 13.5, i put a 42 tooth pinon on and left it there all day. Motor temp was about 165-170 every race and the car was plenty fast. I think i needed a tad more gear.
Im not going to tell anyone not to buy the car. I have 2 of them. BUT- i will be buying a real 416 in the near future. There are a lot of TCS races at fastcats and i think i would enjoy competing in them.
BUT- let me clear a few things up for you all.
I ran the car yesterday in 13.5 rubber.
#1- Nothing broke. And the last time i drove an RC car was april (offroad) last time i drove a touring car was jan 4th. and the last time i drove rubber tires was 2001. Needless to say, i was a bit rusty and had quite a few rubs. The only thing that could be considered a break, was the front spindles- both upper kingpins pulled out- i replaced both with Tamiya parts.
#2- You cant machine junk aluminum all that well. All of the pieces on my car look good to me, and when holding it to an original 416, i couldnt see any notable difference. The owner of the other car did not know either- and i did not mention it.
#3- The car performed. I have had a lot of cars over the years. This car was quite dialed. I Qualified 2nd, only bested by 1 second, by the track owners kid who has gotten quite fast- and recently returned from the Tamiya NA finals. I ended up winning the main.
How did I prep the car? Im lazy. I pulled the CV's all apart and greased them. I rebuilt the diff, shortened the screw. Replaced the Orings in the shocks with Tamiya clear, 1 oring setup. Put losi 50 in the front, losi 40 in the rear.
and because i have a gross of them still, I used losi 20lb front spring and 17.5lb rear. The car was quite easy to drive, and like i said-- won.
used suspension locations from Cory Whiteman NEGS.
start out by loosening all of the chassis screws, setting the car on a flat surface and then with the car on the flat surface= tighten the top deck, then do the bottom.
the only thing i find strange about the car is that it seems to have Metric threaded screws, with a 5/64" head. Now i know that is close to 2mm, but my 2mm wrench does not fit in most of the screws, and the ballstuds do not fit tamiya cups.
The Tamiya manual calls for a 5x.5mm shim in the diff, which is not in there. I took 5mm of shims out of the bell crank and used them there as it would be easier to replace them, than tare down the diff at the track. BUT- i couldnt get the diff to work with .5mm in it. I think i finally ended up with .2mm of shims (2 shims)
the arms on the car feel just like the tamiya ones i bought.. although i didnt go in depth in messing with them.
the caster blocks are very soft and flexible- i was worried about this- until the other 416 I saw at the track had the exact same feel.
100% of the binding in my car was caused by Ballcups. I replaced all ballcups with losi JRXS-R capture cups- the tamiya ones i bought did not fit the balls. EDIT= the only problem with this setup is that I cannot use the very longest setting for the camber link. I am going to mill the bulkhead a tiny bit so it works. Show pics later this week.
I had to open up the 5th and 6th battery slot to accomodate my new hyperdrive lipo trays.
Other than the diff screw being in backwards, the car was built fine for a starting point.
I even ran the stock spur gear. I bought a new one that i have yet to install, ONLY because i have no idea how many teeth are on the stock one. for 13.5, i put a 42 tooth pinon on and left it there all day. Motor temp was about 165-170 every race and the car was plenty fast. I think i needed a tad more gear.
Im not going to tell anyone not to buy the car. I have 2 of them. BUT- i will be buying a real 416 in the near future. There are a lot of TCS races at fastcats and i think i would enjoy competing in them.
I would say that the top deck is too stiff for me, as its really does harm to rubber tyres after a long run. Also, running a standard 6mm downstop travel at the front doesnt feel right, as with quick direction changes the front wheel tends to come off the ground indoors on carpet. Probably works a treat outdoors, because of the lesser grip levels. This is not a spring stiffness issue, as it does it on softer springs. I'm going to try 5mm front 5mm rear on the stops.
I dont kow whether this is a trait from the normal 416WE, but the car definately feels a lot more rear biased than other touring cars. Potentially, it has lots of steering but feels unstable. I sort of get why its hard to setup. The car has a lot of potencial though. I want to find a day where I can constantly experiment on setups to find the optimum, as I havent had a day free to do so. I will let you guys know how I get on.
With the caster blocks, I just brought the 3racing ones. They feel great in terms of how play is eliminated on the arms. £10.00 with postage on ebay. I wouldve done the same on the real car, by the sound of things. One thing I will say though, the rear hubs on the clone car are rubbish. On impact the ball joints bend the soft hubs and make the thread unusable. I can bet when you have a rear impact, it will do the same for you. Again, a 3racing one will sort the issue out.
09-08-2009, 03:16 PM
#450
Very good analysis.
Anyway people need to stop saying China makes crappy stuff because they can make good stuff too.
For example Giant bicycles are very high quality and very competitive.
Another example is Fenix flashlights, very high quality flashlights.
It's only a matter of time until they start designing really competitive R/C cars/trucks. They already make a lot of quality hop ups for various cars out there. Designing their own chassis isn't rocket science. China has a lot of very good engineers. They could easily design an R/C car if they really wanted to. If you really look closely at a basic competition level R/C chassis it's quite simple. Carbon plates, shock towers, basic knuckles, suspension arms yada yada yada. Heck even I could design the chassis myself and hire a mechanical engineer to verfiy the weak points.
Anyway people need to stop saying China makes crappy stuff because they can make good stuff too.
For example Giant bicycles are very high quality and very competitive.
Another example is Fenix flashlights, very high quality flashlights.
It's only a matter of time until they start designing really competitive R/C cars/trucks. They already make a lot of quality hop ups for various cars out there. Designing their own chassis isn't rocket science. China has a lot of very good engineers. They could easily design an R/C car if they really wanted to. If you really look closely at a basic competition level R/C chassis it's quite simple. Carbon plates, shock towers, basic knuckles, suspension arms yada yada yada. Heck even I could design the chassis myself and hire a mechanical engineer to verfiy the weak points.