1LikesU.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing
12-30-2009, 07:55 PM
#7336
Tech Regular
Does anybody remember what "stock class" racing was like in 1990? ESCs cost around $100 (with 7 MOSFETS in them), and stock motors were around $30. With 36 or more degrees of timing (the timing went up every 3 months), the motors lasted maybe 2 race days before the comm needed cutting, and you had to use a "stock comm" lathe which reached inside the can because the motors couldn't be taken apart. (The 42° motors started slowing down in the 3rd heat, so you saved one for the main at big events.) Even after comm cutting, the magnets had lost enough strength that you still wanted a new motor to be competitive.
Now you're being offered a $129 ESC & motor that will last for years, and you're complaining?????
Now you're being offered a $129 ESC & motor that will last for years, and you're complaining?????
12-30-2009, 08:11 PM
#7338
For everyone who is cool with the current speeds, feel free to drop by the Maryland-to-Massachusetts VTA community for a thorough showing of just how fast a 21.5 motor can be pushed. We wear tires out in 3 racedays. When the ROAR weight limit was higher than VTA's 1450g, we were actually faster than the 17.5 cars! That kind of speed is NOT what VTA was intended to demonstrate. Be happy that no one in your area has figured out how to do this, as the racing sucks when just a few guys walk away from the field.
The closest and most enjoyable racing I have done in my 20+ years has been the slower classes. However, the most intense and exciting racing I've done is Mod TC indoors at Cleveland with 4' lanes. Notice the difference there? Many people overlook that subtle nuance about speed. VTA was and is the slow TC class. The way to maximize the enjoyment factor in slow classes is to ensure the cars are packed in like sardines. When the field stretches out b'c of higher speeds, the boredom of slow racing sets in. Plain and simple. The FDR-restrained-21.5 and high-timing ESCs allowed VTA to get away from it's original purpose, being slow for slownesses sake.
Someone once asked me why I raced VTA and Nitro TC on the same day. He didn't understand how I enjoyed such different classes. Truth be told, going slow is fun when we're breaking the sideview mirrors off eachothers cars, but stretching 2nd gear over 60+mph is exhilarating when there's a bit of breathing room between me and another racer's $1,000 nitro car! Different things at stake and different emotions make the classes worthwhile in their own right.
The closest and most enjoyable racing I have done in my 20+ years has been the slower classes. However, the most intense and exciting racing I've done is Mod TC indoors at Cleveland with 4' lanes. Notice the difference there? Many people overlook that subtle nuance about speed. VTA was and is the slow TC class. The way to maximize the enjoyment factor in slow classes is to ensure the cars are packed in like sardines. When the field stretches out b'c of higher speeds, the boredom of slow racing sets in. Plain and simple. The FDR-restrained-21.5 and high-timing ESCs allowed VTA to get away from it's original purpose, being slow for slownesses sake.
Someone once asked me why I raced VTA and Nitro TC on the same day. He didn't understand how I enjoyed such different classes. Truth be told, going slow is fun when we're breaking the sideview mirrors off eachothers cars, but stretching 2nd gear over 60+mph is exhilarating when there's a bit of breathing room between me and another racer's $1,000 nitro car! Different things at stake and different emotions make the classes worthwhile in their own right.
12-30-2009, 08:25 PM
#7339
Tech Adept
[QUOTE=Scottrik;6784810]
I can't wait. I'll show pics of how I mount it and how it looks when I'm done. If I leave the helmet off it'll look JUST like me too (admit it...some of you were thinking it..."dick head"
)
Scottrik, you've been busy stirring the pot here today. Xmas break must be to long.
Then, the offer to take pics of what it looks like and how you mount it?? Ehhhh, good thing this is not the Tiger Woods Scandal forum or it would be an image I don't want to see.
Seriously, your (and many others here) support of the VTA class is honorable and appreciated. Your insights offer both shameless candor and entertainment value.
Take it easy on the Egg Nog and have a happy New Year's celebration. Catch you for some racing in January.
Aaron
I can't wait. I'll show pics of how I mount it and how it looks when I'm done. If I leave the helmet off it'll look JUST like me too (admit it...some of you were thinking it..."dick head"
)Scottrik, you've been busy stirring the pot here today. Xmas break must be to long.
Then, the offer to take pics of what it looks like and how you mount it?? Ehhhh, good thing this is not the Tiger Woods Scandal forum or it would be an image I don't want to see.Seriously, your (and many others here) support of the VTA class is honorable and appreciated. Your insights offer both shameless candor and entertainment value.
Take it easy on the Egg Nog and have a happy New Year's celebration. Catch you for some racing in January.
Aaron
12-30-2009, 08:37 PM
#7340
Man what a flurry in such a short time.
Not that it matters but I want to thank and congratulate Rob for making this bold move. I have not run my VTA ca for awhile and was going to stop running it going forward because of what was happening with the ESC's.
Now I can't wait to get my VTA car put back together with my GTB speedo and a Novak Ballistic motor. I think the Ballistic will work out great because now I can get a 13.5 ballistic to run GT1 in TCS and for $40 more I can get a 25.5 stator and run VTA. I could not ask for a better investment. If I can't sell my current 21.5 I will hold on to it as I have a feeling there will be a use for it in the near future (maybe a replacement for the Johnson motor)
Can't wait to paint up a new Penske Sunoco Camaro for next season.
Way to go Rob!!!!
Not that it matters but I want to thank and congratulate Rob for making this bold move. I have not run my VTA ca for awhile and was going to stop running it going forward because of what was happening with the ESC's.
Now I can't wait to get my VTA car put back together with my GTB speedo and a Novak Ballistic motor. I think the Ballistic will work out great because now I can get a 13.5 ballistic to run GT1 in TCS and for $40 more I can get a 25.5 stator and run VTA. I could not ask for a better investment. If I can't sell my current 21.5 I will hold on to it as I have a feeling there will be a use for it in the near future (maybe a replacement for the Johnson motor)
Can't wait to paint up a new Penske Sunoco Camaro for next season.
Way to go Rob!!!!
12-30-2009, 09:39 PM
#7341
We've got 3 race dates scheduled in January...with this weekend being both Sat (for practice) and Sun offering far and away the most track time. Any idea which weekend?
We also need to start looking at dates for the second half of the Challenge Series...we're up by a point and looking to defend that lead!!
Have a happy and safe New Year yourself. Give our best to Jodie and the Butterfly Princess.
Scottrik
12-30-2009, 10:05 PM
#7344
Very possible no one is familiar with that exact car. BUT all Touring Cars respond to basically the same tuning inputs, it's just a matter of how much of what is needed for an individual chassis and to best suit your style and track.
Regardless which chassis you own, the best bet I could recommend would be to purchase the XXX-Main tuning guide or purchase/download the pretty much identical M-Power book on TC tuning. It goes through pretty much every adjustment available on your TC, explains what the effect of that adjusment is, and then provides an excellent set of decision tables to help prioritize/effect changes.
This quick-n-dirty cheat sheet compiled by Rich Chang would get you started (start with the kit base-line setup, drive it, evaluate what it's doing, then take action. I'll attach the cheat sheet but I STONGLY recommend the books. I STILL get mine out when I work on TC/VTA setups.
Regardless which chassis you own, the best bet I could recommend would be to purchase the XXX-Main tuning guide or purchase/download the pretty much identical M-Power book on TC tuning. It goes through pretty much every adjustment available on your TC, explains what the effect of that adjusment is, and then provides an excellent set of decision tables to help prioritize/effect changes.
This quick-n-dirty cheat sheet compiled by Rich Chang would get you started (start with the kit base-line setup, drive it, evaluate what it's doing, then take action. I'll attach the cheat sheet but I STONGLY recommend the books. I STILL get mine out when I work on TC/VTA setups.
12-31-2009, 12:06 AM
#7345
Hi guys,
I just want to make a few comments with the developements that have transpired over the last 24 hours or so within the USVTA rule set.
For those of you that do not know me, let me introduce myself. My name is Eric and I own a small shop smack dab in the middle between Chicago and Milwaukee otherwise known as Harbor Hobbies or The Track depending on who you talk to. We have been in a small sort of way involved with the USVTA since it's creation.
I commend what everyone has done to dream, think and create, which would include the group in Montana and Mimi's as well as Marty and the guys at Trackside and Doug and crew with the now national USVTA, what is the most exciting RC racing around were wins are sometimes pulled out of the hat on the last lap on the last turn and weekly battles between racers are a treat to watch and an 8 year old is battling dad for position. Go John jr.!
When this all started about 2 years or so ago VTA was almost 2 seconds a lap slower than stock TC, now it has become as little as .8 seconds slower per lap on some tracks, which in my opinion has become way to fast.
While everyone is concerned with the costs involved for the new rules in the fall of 2010, you also have to consider the hobbyshops that get caught in the middle of the "flavor of the week". ESC's,batteries, tuning aids all fall out of favor very quickly. Some shops are able to get out from under their inventory while others get stuck. I myself have (4) SS21.5's in my case right now as well as a Havoc Spec 21.5 combo with no appearant outlet.
Limiting the FDR is/was only a stop gap measure. The USORCC ( Novak Race) has set the FDR at 5.2 for VTA and no "boost" function as well as no one-ways, so this in a sense will be the first real world test case for slowing these cars down. Yes, paint may dry faster on tracks that have straights longer than 100', but the race is very rarely won during the drag race to the finish line.
Look at it this way, the ESC wars are over in VTA. We as racers do not have to worry if "Joe" is actually running a legal FDR and Bill can bring back out his GTB powered TC3 (fastest out of control VTA car I have every seen :-) ), and I can put my XBR back in a car and have some fun.
I want to thank all those who were involved in testing the 25.5 as well as all the other options that were looked at before a decision was made. I think it is the right decision in the right direction.
It's time to start planning for the USVTA Nationals and there is not much time :-)
I just want to make a few comments with the developements that have transpired over the last 24 hours or so within the USVTA rule set.
For those of you that do not know me, let me introduce myself. My name is Eric and I own a small shop smack dab in the middle between Chicago and Milwaukee otherwise known as Harbor Hobbies or The Track depending on who you talk to. We have been in a small sort of way involved with the USVTA since it's creation.
I commend what everyone has done to dream, think and create, which would include the group in Montana and Mimi's as well as Marty and the guys at Trackside and Doug and crew with the now national USVTA, what is the most exciting RC racing around were wins are sometimes pulled out of the hat on the last lap on the last turn and weekly battles between racers are a treat to watch and an 8 year old is battling dad for position. Go John jr.!
When this all started about 2 years or so ago VTA was almost 2 seconds a lap slower than stock TC, now it has become as little as .8 seconds slower per lap on some tracks, which in my opinion has become way to fast.
While everyone is concerned with the costs involved for the new rules in the fall of 2010, you also have to consider the hobbyshops that get caught in the middle of the "flavor of the week". ESC's,batteries, tuning aids all fall out of favor very quickly. Some shops are able to get out from under their inventory while others get stuck. I myself have (4) SS21.5's in my case right now as well as a Havoc Spec 21.5 combo with no appearant outlet.
Limiting the FDR is/was only a stop gap measure. The USORCC ( Novak Race) has set the FDR at 5.2 for VTA and no "boost" function as well as no one-ways, so this in a sense will be the first real world test case for slowing these cars down. Yes, paint may dry faster on tracks that have straights longer than 100', but the race is very rarely won during the drag race to the finish line.
Look at it this way, the ESC wars are over in VTA. We as racers do not have to worry if "Joe" is actually running a legal FDR and Bill can bring back out his GTB powered TC3 (fastest out of control VTA car I have every seen :-) ), and I can put my XBR back in a car and have some fun.
I want to thank all those who were involved in testing the 25.5 as well as all the other options that were looked at before a decision was made. I think it is the right decision in the right direction.
It's time to start planning for the USVTA Nationals and there is not much time :-)
12-31-2009, 03:56 AM
#7346
they look super detailed AND have the driver on the correct side
not too concerned about the helmet - everyone today is supposed to wear a full faced helmet anyways
12-31-2009, 06:01 AM
#7347
Does anybody remember what "stock class" racing was like in 1990? ESCs cost around $100 (with 7 MOSFETS in them), and stock motors were around $30. With 36 or more degrees of timing (the timing went up every 3 months), the motors lasted maybe 2 race days before the comm needed cutting, and you had to use a "stock comm" lathe which reached inside the can because the motors couldn't be taken apart. (The 42° motors started slowing down in the 3rd heat, so you saved one for the main at big events.) Even after comm cutting, the magnets had lost enough strength that you still wanted a new motor to be competitive.
Now you're being offered a $129 ESC & motor that will last for years, and you're complaining?????
Now you're being offered a $129 ESC & motor that will last for years, and you're complaining?????
Times have changed. Technology has changed and the hobby has continued to evolve with those changes... and still survived!
Not having raced an R/C car in over two decades, I welcome reentering the sport on a level playing field and at a slower pace. One thing that apparently has not changed is the inability to please everyone, everywhere and all the time.
Just my $0.02...
Daddy-o
12-31-2009, 06:15 AM
#7348
hey scottrik - do you happen to know the part number for this? I'm gonna ask my LHS to see about getting them in..didnt see it on Gary's site
they look super detailed AND have the driver on the correct side
not too concerned about the helmet - everyone today is supposed to wear a full faced helmet anyways
they look super detailed AND have the driver on the correct side
not too concerned about the helmet - everyone today is supposed to wear a full faced helmet anyways
I just got an e-mail from Gary McAllister this morning that he looked again for a painted sample without luck so he may paint one up to put on the site. It's been a LONG time since I've painted a lexan interior so I'm really looking forward to it. I've never really been very good at that sort of thing but some folks can really make art on these. The stuff I remember is that you paint the helmet and the gauge faces on the back (bottom) side so they have high gloss (like when you paint a body) and paint the rest on the top side so the driver doesn't look like he's wearing a plastic suit (a la Imperial Storm Troopers) and the interior panels don't look like they've been clear-coated and Simonized.
12-31-2009, 06:29 AM
#7349
To me, it just seens that the rules are been base on just one region or maybe two... Should have take in consideration other regions...
Don't get me wrong, I think the rules will benefit new comers in the budget and provide close racing, but as I explain in my post yesterday the new rules wont work for me. (at the moment)
Now just wait and see if ROAR changes their rules for TA... if they don't change them it'll probably help some tracks to post the rules that benefit the most to them and keep their existing local racers
Don't get me wrong, I think the rules will benefit new comers in the budget and provide close racing, but as I explain in my post yesterday the new rules wont work for me. (at the moment)
Now just wait and see if ROAR changes their rules for TA... if they don't change them it'll probably help some tracks to post the rules that benefit the most to them and keep their existing local racers
Last edited by TwoTone; 12-31-2009 at 07:01 AM.
12-31-2009, 06:36 AM
#7350
Tech Regular
After a while, all the "software geeks" at the ESC companies will eventually get their performance back to a relatively level playing field (the laws of physics can only go so far). Then, when everybody's 17.5 class is faster than 13.5 used to be, there will be the mass cry of "Stock's too fast" and the 21.5 (or maybe 25.5) will become the "new" stock. At least that's what my crystal ball says...