5LikesSC10 4x4 Thread
10-15-2013 | 09:17 AM
Cleaned up my post dirtbikekid, your right.
As a side question back on topic, has anyone heard of an axle design combo'd with some wider hexes I am thinking that will allow the usage of zero offset wheels on the SC10 4x4? I don't recall where I heard it, but I remember seeing something about that specific for the sc10 4x4 so you don't use the +3mm offset wheels anymore.
As a side question back on topic, has anyone heard of an axle design combo'd with some wider hexes I am thinking that will allow the usage of zero offset wheels on the SC10 4x4? I don't recall where I heard it, but I remember seeing something about that specific for the sc10 4x4 so you don't use the +3mm offset wheels anymore.
Last edited by Cain; 10-15-2013 at 09:19 AM. Reason: Removed logical post
10-15-2013 | 09:42 AM
Tech Legend
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 22,595
From: TRCR Modified Driver
10-15-2013 | 10:47 AM
Since your question includes the sc10 4x4 as well which has a center diff aftermarket option available, its relevant to the thread unless we are now not going to discuss any options like that toad rc / hot racing hub carrier some are using.
Marcus the owner of RC Shox has a nice explanation not too long ago about the benefits of a center diff in comparison to a slipper setup and his design for the sc10 4x4.
Having owned the product and used it on loose offroad conditions and probably the highest grip, indoor carpet, I found that it worked as advertised. I was up to 8 pins overall and liked how it felt. Marcus did go into an explanation on how the diff action was still present with 10 pins, but I don't recall where that took place.
To me, I personally felt the most benefit I saw was outdoors 1/8 style tracks.
That said, if he comes on here it would be cool to get a setup from Shark on the conditions he is running on as I think the traction is such that he uses slicks. He probably can give great advice on the amount of pins to use when running the center diff setup.
If you can take pics of the center diff it would be most helpful in getting you situated as there are others currently using it on higher traction conditions like carpet that are not experiencing the problems you have stated you had with the unit you purchased.
Last edited by Cain; 10-15-2013 at 11:14 AM.
10-15-2013 | 12:51 PM
The C-Diff does not slip... the slipper slips.
The pin count is like changing gear diff fluid weight.
Less pins is like a thinner diff fluid, it will diff out to the end with the least traction.
More pins is like a thicker diff fluid, it will send power to both ends more equally.
Outdoor may be where you see the most benefit but even on high grip surfaces the main benefits I saw was attitude adjustment in the air and if coming out of a 180° turn that puts you right into a triple, I could hold a tight line and pin it up the face (no slip) where I had to take a wider line for a run at it with the slipper. Then of course, just like on an outdoor track you have the tunability of the C-Diff.
10-15-2013 | 01:49 PM
As I mentioned previously WC, please answer what I asked the Center Diff that you purchased and had this experience with on your vehicle. That will allow us that have had success using the product to help you out.
Its interesting though that you finally did test the product and I am surprised you haven't reported on it before. I am assuming your purchase was recent so you probably got the new hardened pins. Was there any unusual wear on those parts?
For those looking for more information how the Center Diff works when properly setup, here is something that Marcus posted a bit ago that may be useful:
http://www.rctech.net/forum/12168728-post34095.html
and some info on pin adding:
http://www.rctech.net/forum/12331035-post34467.html
Hope thing helps those interested in using a Center Diff in loose and carpet conditions.
Me personally I liked 8 pins on carpet.
Its interesting though that you finally did test the product and I am surprised you haven't reported on it before. I am assuming your purchase was recent so you probably got the new hardened pins. Was there any unusual wear on those parts?
For those looking for more information how the Center Diff works when properly setup, here is something that Marcus posted a bit ago that may be useful:
http://www.rctech.net/forum/12168728-post34095.html
... when a slipper slips you are losing power and acceleration no matter how it is set, which is why some will tell you that it seems like they are losing acceleration when the slipper is set "proper". With any differential it does just that , differentiates between the front/rear and left/right. Since there is no slippage full power is either going to the front, rear or a combination of the two.
Now with that said if your pins/fluid are too light by nature the diff will send power to where it can go to via the easiest path. So as the weight transfers to the rear and the front gets light power will go towards the front. This is why the V1 dif was so badass on loose tracks because when grip is low so much power goes to the front that the rear will not spin barely if at all. when the V1 dif was tried on high grip tracks you would lose acceleration because the rear tires would immediately gain grip forcing all the power to go to the front and the front wheels would "dif out".
So those of you that were on this thread remember when Cam and I were testing and testing and testing to find the right combination of balls and pin location to allow the dif to adjust to these situations. Some see the dif as just a spur gear with holes in it and balls but trust me there is more to it than that.
I honestly believe that an RCShox center dif with all pins will outperform any slipper setup on any track and any grip levels. Here is something to think about, having to run 30k front dif fluid is not optimum. It works but it is just a bandaid because of the slipper. By definition what does thick front dif fluid do?
If you swap out the slipper for a center dif and no other changes what happens? the truck will not turn and you are forced to try and get the rear to rotate via roll center! With a slipper the front and rear are locked so the truck is never really planted, its always "moving" around. With a center dif since the front and rear are seperate you get greater corner speed. Want to test this theory? take a slipper truck, turn the front wheels to lock and drive about 15 circles and you will see that the truck is not in the same place as it was when you started. do the same with a center dif and the truck will be in almost the same identical spot.
It has been proven that the slipper can obviously work but its a compromise. It has also been proven that a center dif can also work, in the end it just depends on preference. But a slipper will NEVER work good on loose conditions where as a center dif will work on both high bite and low grip conditions.
Now with that said if your pins/fluid are too light by nature the diff will send power to where it can go to via the easiest path. So as the weight transfers to the rear and the front gets light power will go towards the front. This is why the V1 dif was so badass on loose tracks because when grip is low so much power goes to the front that the rear will not spin barely if at all. when the V1 dif was tried on high grip tracks you would lose acceleration because the rear tires would immediately gain grip forcing all the power to go to the front and the front wheels would "dif out".
So those of you that were on this thread remember when Cam and I were testing and testing and testing to find the right combination of balls and pin location to allow the dif to adjust to these situations. Some see the dif as just a spur gear with holes in it and balls but trust me there is more to it than that.
I honestly believe that an RCShox center dif with all pins will outperform any slipper setup on any track and any grip levels. Here is something to think about, having to run 30k front dif fluid is not optimum. It works but it is just a bandaid because of the slipper. By definition what does thick front dif fluid do?
- push on entry
- on power steering
If you swap out the slipper for a center dif and no other changes what happens? the truck will not turn and you are forced to try and get the rear to rotate via roll center! With a slipper the front and rear are locked so the truck is never really planted, its always "moving" around. With a center dif since the front and rear are seperate you get greater corner speed. Want to test this theory? take a slipper truck, turn the front wheels to lock and drive about 15 circles and you will see that the truck is not in the same place as it was when you started. do the same with a center dif and the truck will be in almost the same identical spot.
It has been proven that the slipper can obviously work but its a compromise. It has also been proven that a center dif can also work, in the end it just depends on preference. But a slipper will NEVER work good on loose conditions where as a center dif will work on both high bite and low grip conditions.
http://www.rctech.net/forum/12331035-post34467.html
Yes the more pins you add is just like adding heavier center dif fluid. the more pins=more rear drive. On a high bite track you can run 6-8 with no problem all 10 if the track is like velcro! even with 10 the pins the dif acts centrifugally so it actually gets tighter as you accelerate!
Me personally I liked 8 pins on carpet.
10-15-2013 | 02:28 PM
If the one you tried slipped at all, you did not experience the C-Diff in good working condition. Kind of like if you were to try a B4.2 with a spanked diff that's too lose and you thought that thing is junk... I'm buying a Losi 22.
Last edited by fq06; 10-15-2013 at 03:40 PM.
10-15-2013 | 02:29 PM
Tech Apprentice
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 92
From: Northern Arizona
If you are interested in giving it a try again I am sure there are several people that would be willing to help you with the setup and troubleshooting. Do you remember when you got it, what type of grease you used and how the pins looked when you pulled it apart? Also did you run it with the gear cover or your normal style of open to the elements?
Jason
10-15-2013 | 03:04 PM
Tech Legend
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 22,595
From: TRCR Modified Driver
Az
Had all the directions from the shox site and rctech.
I followed them to the letter.
Can understand how you may think I did something wrong.
Its still possible I guess . liked the Vts way better after however .
All happen when using three pads or before I started using a extra pad.
Ran with the part about 50 runs..
I have to put up with many put down posts just to speak frankly about the part .Not intending or trying to be hostile.
Sorry if I ignore certain members..
Its better then reacting to their put downs and best for the thread.
Had all the directions from the shox site and rctech.
I followed them to the letter.
Can understand how you may think I did something wrong.
Its still possible I guess . liked the Vts way better after however .
All happen when using three pads or before I started using a extra pad.
Ran with the part about 50 runs..
I have to put up with many put down posts just to speak frankly about the part .Not intending or trying to be hostile.
Sorry if I ignore certain members..
Its better then reacting to their put downs and best for the thread.
10-15-2013 | 03:36 PM
What I am confused on is that for all the your criticisms of the product, you never once till now posted that you purchased the product. Your penchant for pictures of the upgrades and changes you try stands in contrast to what you did in this case.
But honestly WC, If you need help with the product since you haven't gotten it to work to your liking, I and others are more than willing to help you. Just like when I dissagreed with your assessment of how the +8mm works, I still asked you for setup advice for a high traction surface as I know you run on stuff like that, remember that?
So, please, review what I posted and answer the questions I asked.
Take some pictures of the product that you own and try to focus on the condition of the pins. When you install the product have someone who also posts here take some video of you driving it so we can see the issues you are having so we can help you correct them. They can also comment on what they are seeing from there perspective as well which can be helpful in fixing issues like what you are having.
And if you still like the VTS slipper after trying a working RC Shox Center Diff, then good for you.
And even better still, I spoke with Marcus, if you are still unhappy with the product you purchased from RC Shox, he advised me your are more than welcome to send it back for a refund.
But to be honest, I would like to see your honest assessments with a working product.