Lots of guys around SoCal seem to be loving the Schuur Speed 17.5T, surprised nobody mentioned it here?

Has anyone tried the Hobbywing? They have a new Bandit Outlaw stock too, I would imagine that's NOT roar legal. Doesn't seem to be on the list...

I'd love to run 17.5 stock. It's so much fun. However, I have a hard enough time clearing some of the jumps we have at the local track with a 13.5.

I run the Shuur Speed 17.5T in my Associated TC 6.2, Losi XXXT-CR and Associated B5. Great motor! And yes, I am in SoCal so I may be influenced by TQ RC Racing and OCRC, the two tracks I race at.

My $.03 on going fast in stock. (I aplogize in advance for the long winded read. I hope some new drivers can find some value in here)

When I first got back into 17.5 Onroad Touring Car racing a number of years ago, I was struggling a little bit with the speed I was able to get out of my 17.5 motor. I was running the same motor and same ESC as the fast guy, but his car would blow my doors off on the straight. Gearing was crucial, because running on an outdoor track in the summer with a 100+ foot straight-away, it was easy to run a motor too hot and cook it.

So there was this guy that was not only faster around the track (better driver), but he seemed to be able to get more out of his car than me. After doing some poking around, I realized he was geared a bit taller than myself. But I was already geared about as tall as I could get without cooking my motor. He was coming off the track at similar temps, but was able to gear taller.

Baffled, I eventually figured out what was going on (it's obvious now, but wasn't back then.. and honestly, this isn't as big of a factor in offroad). What I found was that he was SOO much better at keeping up his speed in the corners (I was a little more point & shoot), that the sweet spot for punch and pull in his gearing was taller than myself. When he came out of the straight entrance sweeper, his car was keeping 2 or 3 more MPH before he even got to full throttle. This allowed him to gear taller, providing even more pull and more top speed down the straight. So not only would he woop me in the corners, but I couldn't even keep up with him on the straight, because I had to gear shorter to keep my car from over-heating from having to accelerate and brake more in the infield.

So the point? Gearing is not only dependent on your choice of motor brand, stator type, rotor size and characteristics, track size, track layout, and many other things, but a lot of it has to do with how you personally drive the car.

So to the OP... you say you're getting your doors blown away on the straight. You might have a gearing problem but maybe not. Maybe you are coming closer to a stop at the entrance of the straight, where the guy kicking your butt is still at half throttle and maintaining a lot of speed. This was the BIGGEST different I have been able to make in my lap times.

Now, having said all that, there are a LOT of other secrets out there, that aren't really secrets. Here is a small list of things I do that help me maintain not only the most amount of corner speed, but also the best pull I can get out of the power system in the car.

Equipment Choices:
You are going to hear a lot of people claiming their stuff is the best. Most of the time (not always) people just recommend what the already run. BUT.. there IS a difference in speed potential between different gear choices. There is a guy I race with at my local track right now, who is just as fast I am (usually) around the track. He is great at keeping up his corner speed... but when we switch cars during practice just for fun.. his car itself is NOT as physically fast as mine, even with perfect gearing, similar weight, etc.

I am a firm believer in the gear I run, and it shows on the track when guys think i'm running a 13.5. What does this other guy run? Well, at risk of upsetting some people (sorry guys!), he runs a reedy 17.5, a Tekin RS speedo, and Orion carbon batteries. Personally, I don't like the power of the reedy stock motors, I don't think power delivery is good with the Tekin ESC, and I find the Orion Carbon batteries to be on the soft side (great for mod, not for stock). If this kid ran my gear, he would blow my doors off because the driving is kind of neck-and-neck.

I am not here to push my sponsors... but I will anyway. I don't run my Fantom gear because I am sponsored by them... I am sponsored because I have been running Fantom gear and helping push the brand (because I believe in it, and love to help others) for years. The ION5 17.5, combined with their new black cased lipo, combined with a quality smooth power delivery ESC (I run a hobbywing SS 3.1) , definitely gives me an edge. No doubt.

So in general, equipment choice DOES affect actual acceleration potential on the track. No offense intended to the reedy motor fans, the tekin RS fans, or the Orion battery fans. I'm just not one of them and brand name has nothing to do with it. Any two things lined up will have SIMILAR performance on the track. The difference is when you put all of them together at the same time.

How do you choose gearing?
This is a big question I often get at the track, and there is quite a bit of misconception that I hear passed around. And because there is a LOT that goes into it, there isn't a single answer. But what I hear a lot, is this... "i know if you gear down in pinion, you get more torque/acceleration, and if you gear up in pinion you lose torque/acceleration but gain top speed"... and I always say.. "wrong".

Here is the fun analogy I use, and every time I tell it to a newer driver, inevitably, I see the little light bulb flicker on over their head:

I first ask, " "what gear in your full sized car gives you the most torque or acceleration"? They will inevitably say "first gear". I say, "Wrong. It depends on how fast your car is already going. If you car is rolling down the road at 30mph, what gear are you going to throw your car into to accelerate or apply the most torque? It certainly wouldn't be 1st gear!. How much pull would you have in 1st? None... you would already be totally wound out. You would have more torque, more acceleration, and more top speed in 2nd.. or maybe even 3rd... probably not 4th. What if your car was going 80? or 5? You have to figure out what the average speed needs of the car is going to be around THIS PARTICULAR TRACK... and gear so that you get the most work out of your motor around the majority of the track, for that particular speed."

Imagine yourself in your full sized 1:1 car... a 5 speed manual, and you are on a race track of some sorts. Call it.. an auto-cross track in a parking lot. But unlike a real car, you can't use all 5 gears. You have to pick ONE gear, and that is all you get. What gear do you choose? The answer depends on how fast you think the car will be best at around the track. 20mph? 40mph? 60mph? Each of these will change which "gear" you pick. But unlike your fillsized car that only has 5 gears, we in RC have like 100, between spur/pinion/and motor timing. Pick the one that will provide the best combo of acceleration and speed or THIS track size and layout.

So you change your gearing and/or timing to MOVE that optimal and most used torque band around to maximise performance. You need to pick the gear and timing combo that produces the most torque for your car, at whatever speed your car spends the most time at. Sometimes gearing down produces LESS acceleration, and LESS torque. For example, if running a 17.5, and you are geared at 11/90... (painfully under-geared).. you would not gain more acceleration and more torque by going to a 10/90. It doesn't work that way.

Then I also hear the following "I am coming off the track at 130 degrees, but I hear 160 is where you want to be, should I gear up"? And the answer is, not necessarily! There is another misconception that you gear for temperature...and that is incorrect. You want to gear for laptimes, period.. AS LONG AS... it doesn't take you over your heat limit. So for my local little indoor track, my car is geared perfectly. I get the best semetry between torque/pull and overall speed on my track. BUT. I come off the track at 145. Gearing up would increase my temps closer to 160, but it would hurt my laptimes... so "gearing for temps" is a misconception. Gear for feel and laptimes INSIDE your temp limits.

Car Smoothness:
There are a lot of things that all come together here. Each one of them by itself will not do much. But put them all together, and the car just flat out performs better.

1) I have one of the smoothest drive trains I have spun. It's always clean, de-burred, and all the bearings are clean and spin super free. If any bearing starts to act up, I swap it out. And I don't use anything fancy. $1 bearings from protek. Smooth = less friction = less heat = more leeway in gearing = faster.

2) I always balance my drive tires (I actually do all 4, but the rears are what count). If you were to hold my car up in the air by the rear-end, and pull throttle on the transmitter... you would be shocked at how little vibration you feel up into your hand. Other people's cars, when you do that, shake around like a paint mixer. How does that make you faster, you might be thinking? Well.. when those drive tires are on the ground, as they spin out-of-balance, you loose a tiny bit of traction, especially forward traction. It allows me as a driver to pull the trigger slightly harder than the next guy, because my car resists breaking forward traction just a tiny bit more. Will it win a race? NOPE! But this is just one tiny piece of the multi-piece puzzle.

3) Personal preference thing, but I run all my graphs linearly on my ESC and transmitter. I take that back... not exactly. I run my EXPs so that MY 17.5 FEELS linear. On most motors, it will actually be a slight positive bend in the throttle curve. My goal is to always have a linear feel. That keeps the car as predictable as possible. Also, I run my radio with ZERO dead band at the neutral point in the trigger. Again, personal preference, but it helps keep the car predictable, and predictable is fast.

Car Maintenance:
Is important. If your car is clapped out, things binding, one shock is longer than the other, all of these things affect how much corner speed you are going to be able to maintain. Keep your car dialed.. fresh.. smooth spinning, and 100% symmetrical in both weight, and things like shock length and steering throw. My car is a symmetrical as I can get (and keep my sanity), my diff is always maintained, and my shocks are always butter smooth. It all adds up.

So in Summary, here is how you get fast:
1. Don't crash
2. Choose fast gear
3. Run fast race lines and maintain as much corner speed as possible
4. Keep your car mechanically perfect
5. keep your car symmetrical and balanced (this requires more attention to detail than most are willing to put out)
6. Watch the faster guy drive and try to figure out what he is doing that you are not. USUALLY, it is behind the stick, not a faster motor... yes, even on the straight.

My very low experienced, and un-informed opinion after being "out of the game" for years and getting back into it?

I went with the D4 with the HT rotor, 100c revtech batteries...

In "blinky" mode my car was a rocket ship. More than one person mistook me for a 13.5 setup, and I'm not that good of a driver.

I also keep my car absolutely spotless, tight, and smooth. I'll rebuild a diff after one night of racing if that's what it takes.

Cpt.America,

Very good write up with lots of good information! I think no matter what motor you run you should always keep your car well maintained and "lubed" up. I have a race on Saturday and I generally take Thursday and Friday rebuilding everything and that doesn't even include tearing it down the day after going to the track to inspect for any broken parts. I posted in another thread that sometimes I think the only reason I go to the track is to tear it down and clean it when I get home

Again, thanks for the informative information!

Awesome Captain. Yep, corner speed is a huge factor in stock straightaway speed. I'd say in off road too. Another tip, run as little toe in as practical, including the rear.

Stock racing is all about keeping the cars momentum going around the track. Hitting your turns perfectly, instead of breaking in the turn only to rev the motor back up.

Brandon,

Thank you for taking the time to write such an insightful post.....

So would it be safe to say that some people might do better in a mod class given their driving style?

Depends. But driving lines and being on and off the throttle is almost the same

I don't think it matters about driving style at all. If you suck with a 17.5 chances are you're going to suck with a mod motor too. The track may come into play though. Sometimes mod motor guys try to slow their car down while spec motor guys try to speed them up. (at least at club level)

What makes me mad the most is when tracks are designed way out of the realm of running a stock motor. Instead of having a quad for the bigger motors to clear and the stock motors to double double they'll just create a double.

Maybe I'm becoming the disgruntled RC enthusiast but I think a lot of new comers are racing with 1/8 scale buggies when they shouldn't be. Way too much power and energy in one of those things. I love during open practice when an 1/8 scale buggy overshoots a jump by 10 feet and lands on top of my 1/10 buggy because they don't know how to work the throttle or know that buggies fly best wing high. My wallet loves it too!!! I know I'm not the best nor will I ever be but sometimes guys that run in mod is like giving an F1 car to a 16 year old kid (who hasn't drove before)

OK -- I'm done ranting. Sorry

Or like flying jets in a gymnasium

LOL...that too!

Has anyone tried the new D4 5% motors or have any comparison to the Wurks R1 Ultra Premium motors? I'm researching motors for the next season and can't find much information comparing the two. Thanks.