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Motor Testing and Comparisons

Old 04-11-2024, 05:58 PM
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I was originally going to follow up in the product comparison thread from last year Product Comparison

I finally made it to a track in 2024, PDX RC Underground. I had replaced all my banded Trinity Slot Machine Certified motors with Fantom Helix RS Works. My son was still running HW G4s that I rebuilt giving the ďworksĒ treatment with ceramic bearings and titanium screws and timing set with load master. The Fantom Helix RS Works noticeably pulled on the HW G4 on back straightaway. Both 17.5T motors in B6.4s geared the same.
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Old 04-12-2024, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by shortcut3d
I was originally going to follow up in the product comparison thread from last year Product Comparison

I finally made it to a track in 2024, PDX RC Underground. I had replaced all my banded Trinity Slot Machine Certified motors with Fantom Helix RS Works. My son was still running HW G4s that I rebuilt giving the ďworksĒ treatment with ceramic bearings and titanium screws and timing set with load master. The Fantom Helix RS Works noticeably pulled on the HW G4 on back straightaway. Both 17.5T motors in B6.4s geared the same.

I can see that. In my tests, I found the Helix to be quite faster than the HW G4. However, the HW G4 showed to have more torque. But, after proper gearing, I can see the Helix having the overall advantage. Under a load, the Helix was 1400 RPM's faster with less than a 1 amp more of a current draw.
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Old 04-30-2024, 07:55 PM
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Built a couple new vehicles. So decide to try out R1 Wurks V21-S Spec. My progression was Slot Machines, HW G4s, Fantom Helix RS Works, and finally R1 Wurks V21-S Spec.

Observations. I purchased 2 x 17.5T and 1 13.5T hand picked stator and aligned sensors motors. All the motors came with high timing +47. The end bell timing is off from the actual timing by 5-7 degrees across each motor. The epoxy on the stator is not the cleanest application. The overall design is nice but the HW and Fantom finish was noticeably nicer. The solder tabs leave a lot to be desired. For one, thereís no way without a load master could I have tested the motor because the middle (B) tab is so close to the stator housing. The tabs are also extremely close. In fact so close, the torque from the motor shifted the 13.5T and caused overload in the load master because the center arced. I imagine soldering having to be very proficient.

Upgrades. R1Wurks sells 10x ceramic motor bearings and titanium nitride coated screws set. I had breakage problems with Fantom Ti screws. The R1 screws were consistently strong and add really nice bling factor which is in contrast to the rather industrial finish of the motor. The ceramic bearings have no seals. Jury is out on these because you canít oil the sensor side without disassembling the motor. On one hand this protects the bearings. Iím also running mid motor on carpet, so light dirty exposure. However, Iím not sure there is more performance than the Fantom ceramic bearings or Boca ceramics which would have less maintenance. The bearings do look nice for a bearing with a darker 10x ceramic coating on the steel races.

Bench Performance. Iím not going to go into depth here, focus more on observations. The motors seem to want more timing than HW G4 and Fantom Helix RS. Those motors and especially the tuned Helix Works were timed in the high 30s. In addition, they had low amp draw at 3-4 amps. The R1 Works V21-S definitely wanted more advanced timing to get similar KV. The amp draw was higher around 6 amps to get similar KV. This seems more like Slot Machines wanting more timing and drawing more amps than the last wave of motors. Based on the other thread for dyno results I set the timing between 42-45 for peak efficiency. The rotors also seemed very strong, but I donít have a device to measure but would assume these are more torque based.
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Old 05-01-2024, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by shortcut3d
The R1 Works V21-S definitely wanted more advanced timing to get similar KV. The amp draw was higher around 6 amps to get similar KV. This seems more like Slot Machines wanting more timing and drawing more amps than the last wave of motors. Based on the other thread for dyno results I set the timing between 42-45 for peak efficiency. The rotors also seemed very strong, but I donít have a device to measure but would assume these are more torque based.
It has not been my experience that the R1 rotors are very strong. I have 5 R1 v21 motors of different flavors and the strongest rotor I have is 1720. Rotors are a crapshoot with R1 though, they don't offer a premium 5% rotor or whatever you want to call it. So I am not saying there aren't strong rotors out there, just that the ones I have aren't all that strong.
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Old 05-01-2024, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by shortcut3d
Built a couple new vehicles. So decide to try out R1 Wurks V21-S Spec. My progression was Slot Machines, HW G4s, Fantom Helix RS Works, and finally R1 Wurks V21-S Spec.

Observations. I purchased 2 x 17.5T and 1 13.5T hand picked stator and aligned sensors motors. All the motors came with high timing +47. The end bell timing is off from the actual timing by 5-7 degrees across each motor. The epoxy on the stator is not the cleanest application. The overall design is nice but the HW and Fantom finish was noticeably nicer. The solder tabs leave a lot to be desired. For one, thereís no way without a load master could I have tested the motor because the middle (B) tab is so close to the stator housing. The tabs are also extremely close. In fact so close, the torque from the motor shifted the 13.5T and caused overload in the load master because the center arced. I imagine soldering having to be very proficient.

Upgrades. R1Wurks sells 10x ceramic motor bearings and titanium nitride coated screws set. I had breakage problems with Fantom Ti screws. The R1 screws were consistently strong and add really nice bling factor which is in contrast to the rather industrial finish of the motor. The ceramic bearings have no seals. Jury is out on these because you canít oil the sensor side without disassembling the motor. On one hand this protects the bearings. Iím also running mid motor on carpet, so light dirty exposure. However, Iím not sure there is more performance than the Fantom ceramic bearings or Boca ceramics which would have less maintenance. The bearings do look nice for a bearing with a darker 10x ceramic coating on the steel races.

Bench Performance. Iím not going to go into depth here, focus more on observations. The motors seem to want more timing than HW G4 and Fantom Helix RS. Those motors and especially the tuned Helix Works were timed in the high 30s. In addition, they had low amp draw at 3-4 amps. The R1 Works V21-S definitely wanted more advanced timing to get similar KV. The amp draw was higher around 6 amps to get similar KV. This seems more like Slot Machines wanting more timing and drawing more amps than the last wave of motors. Based on the other thread for dyno results I set the timing between 42-45 for peak efficiency. The rotors also seemed very strong, but I donít have a device to measure but would assume these are more torque based.
I have found the HW G4 and Helix are not an extremely torquey motor. Especially the Helix. However, they have their place on certain tracks. I have not had a chance to test an R1 yet.
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Old 05-01-2024, 12:09 PM
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I identified the issue with the R1 Wurks 13.5T. The insulation ring on the back of the stator between the solder tabs and end bell is loose and not glued.

Kudos to R1 Wurks customer service. Fast and easy replacement.
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Old 05-01-2024, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by shortcut3d
I identified the issue with the R1 Wurks 13.5T. The insulation ring on the back of the stator between the solder tabs and end bell is loose and not glued.

Kudos to R1 Wurks customer service. Fast and easy replacement.
Did they send out a new stator? I actually asked them if they could just replace an insulator ring an their response was no. That design is not the best. I used some golf shaft epoxy I had laying around to epoxy mine back together. Don't get we wrong, R1 has some great spec motors, there are some areas that could use an update though.
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Old 05-01-2024, 04:47 PM
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Would love to see these two motors tested
  • HW G4R
  • Team Exalt Phoenix Gold
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Old 05-01-2024, 08:50 PM
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I almost bought an R1 motor last summer at Hoosier and was told something like 50% of them fail out of the box and R1 has no issues replacing them, you still have to wait. And as I wanted something newer than my 2 year old garbage stock motors that likely wouldn't solve my problem that day. So I passed, and it sounds like that isnt really out of line.
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Old 05-01-2024, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by trilerian
Did they send out a new stator? I actually asked them if they could just replace an insulator ring an their response was no. That design is not the best. I used some golf shaft epoxy I had laying around to epoxy mine back together. Don't get we wrong, R1 has some great spec motors, there are some areas that could use an update though.
This was a handpicked and aligned sensor motor. R1 said they will replace it with a brand new motor. Not sure if thats because the motor was never soldered or if itís because itís the handpicked version.
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Old 05-01-2024, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Alexv2024
I almost bought an R1 motor last summer at Hoosier and was told something like 50% of them fail out of the box and R1 has no issues replacing them, you still have to wait. And as I wanted something newer than my 2 year old garbage stock motors that likely wouldn't solve my problem that day. So I passed, and it sounds like that isnt really out of line.
The V21-S is supposed to be the newer motor. The epoxy on the end windings is also messy across all the motors. Iím wondering if the issue is the packaging though. The tubes and even luxury motor case for shipping are not the same as fitted foam IMHO.

I also decided against the fancy no seal R1 Wurks 10x Ceramic bearings and went back to my trusty Boca Bearing ABEC 7 stainless ceramic from a fishing reel bulk pack. They come dry and end up being $10 ea and are rated for 103k RPM.
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Old 05-02-2024, 08:04 AM
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Sounds like getting an R1 that actually works and holds up could be a royal PITA......why not choose something else?
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Old 05-02-2024, 09:54 AM
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I would like to clarify my experience with my R1. My motor was used for testing purposes and was soldered onto multiple times before the insulator ring started coming apart. Personally, I have not had issues with new R1 motors. There was an issue a couple of years ago, but I'm pretty sure that was resolved.

All my other R1 motors work fine, and they were bought new.

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Old 05-02-2024, 11:38 AM
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I think I have 5 r1 motors. Voltas in 17.5 and 21.5 and v21s in 17.5 and 25.5. Only one had an issue where a Volta sensor board failed fairly quickly. Maybe around 10 outings but none of my others have needed one yet. I didnt thoroughly inspect each one to check the epoxy or other parts, but everything runs well.
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Old 05-08-2024, 11:31 AM
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Well, I just purchased an HW 17.5 G4r. I should be getting it by the end of the week. I'll keep you all posted on the results.
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