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Radiomaster MT12

Old 11-03-2023, 03:36 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by gigaplex
Some of that binding stuff sounds horrible. What happens if two radios happen to have the same password at the same time? What if you're running 2 classes and change model to the second car while the first one is still turned on? I'd want a guarantee that there will be no conflicts and that the other car won't start responding while I'm racing one of them.
You can choose any bindingphrase you want. Make it an combination of a few characters and numbers. I cant prove it mathematically but the chances of someone at the same event at the same time you are on track has to have the same bindingphrase is negligible.
Every ELRS Reciever can create an own wifi network, you can even connect to that with every smartphone via the browser and change the settings. The wifi network won't appear if the transmitter connects to the reciever before a set time has passed. So no one can alter your settings of your reciever while driving.
There is also a Modelmatch option you can turn on in the ELRS Menu of the radio. If this option is active the matched reciever will only work if the corresponding model is selected in the radio. Even when there are more than one active recievers with the same bindingphrase in range.

ELRS has a learning curve for sure but not too bad especially if the transmission protocol is proven reliable and the recievers are between 15 - 20 bucks.
In comparison to the different sanwa protocols available FH3T, FH4T, FH5 the different servo modes SHR, SSR which you can only set while binding the reciever and won't change every time so you have to rebind the reciever a few times.
Which Sanwa Radio supports which protocol and can bind to which reciever .... i think you'll get my point.

With ELRS every reciever works with every transmitter, the only requirement is they need to be on the same major firmware version. And every reciever / transmitter is updatable. (also over the WebGUI you can enter when connecting to the wifi network the reciever provides, the same applies to every transmitter)
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Last edited by Tomillia; 11-03-2023 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 11-03-2023, 03:47 PM
  #17  
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Sorry if I give that you impression. I do wish Radiomaster was paying me to spread the good word, lol. I'm just passionate about a good deal is all.

Regarding my post history. I just got started with the more serious RC cars. I've been flying planes since like 2010 but just built a Justock 21.5 equipped B6.4 for some spec indoor carpet racing this season. I literally just built it last week and have run it twice now at some localish places, Magic Hobbies and ARCS Raceway. I say localish because they are both still like 1.5 hours away. Funny story, but I actually decided to set it up on my airplane radio (stick radio) which is a Radiomaster Boxer JUST so I could use the existing Express LRS receivers I have. It's interesting that the MT12 came out so shortly after because I probably would have bought one if I hadn't already gotten a few hours of lapping on my stick radio. As it turns out it does not seem to slow me down, I think I'm doing pretty good for my first times on a track.

Regarding the binding, yeah it can be a bother till you get used to it. And yeah if you have two TX's using the same bind phrase it's going to screw stuff up. In practice conflicting bind phrases isn't too much of an issue, there aren't that many people in the hobby and as long as you aren't using "password" or something you should be fine.

Also, yeah they don't have a very clean model match configuration, though you can turn it on and it's mostly useful for having different "profiles" in your ExpressLRS module. ExpressLRS has a bunch of different packet modes. So if you have a long range FPV rover you would probably want to use the 50hz mode where you get the most range and latency isn't an issue. For your carpet buggy you probably want to use F1000 for the lowest latency. Or maybe 333Hz mode if you need something inbetween. So if you configure your models with a specific receiver number the ExpressLRS module will switch between packet modes automatically based on the active model. If the receiver number configured in the receiver does not match what is configured in the model in the radio, the receiver won't respond. That being said you should be careful about only having one model powered on at a time regardless.... If they have the same ID and both have telemetry turned on, I haven't tested this, but I believe what happens is telemetry quits working but the receivers both keep responding. In the fixed wing world its a known configuration to use multiple receivers to extend you pwm outputs you just have to turn off telemetry on all the receivers except for one. Then in the receivers, you can specify what PWM outputs are mapped to what over the air channels. So you could use two 6 output receivers and get 12 working channels out to your model. Not a thing for surface, but maybe with an excavator model or something.

If you want to talk REAL pita parts of expressLRS, it has this odd requirement for a few of the performacne features. The TL;DR of it all is while channel 5 is less than 1500uS the OTA link is variable and telemetry focused to make the LUA script work faster for configuring the receiver. Then if channel 5 is over 1500uS it transitions to a fixed lower telemetry rate and the OTA link becomes performance focused. The TX variable output power doesn't turn on until channel 5 is above 1500uS either. So when you set up the model in the radio, you need to keep this stipulation in mind. It's not documented very well by Radiomaster unfortunately. You can read more about it by googling "expresslrs why do you keep saying put arm on aux 1"

So I suppose there really is a gotcha for the price, it's complicated to use. But the performance is definitely real!
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Old 11-03-2023, 05:05 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by DirkW
Sorry, the following is not directed against you personally, more of a general observation, but when a new, freshly created account, with zero prior posts drops into a thread like this in such a manner, I always think it just feels kinda odd. Especially given the experiences with very thinly disguised marketing by some brands we've seen here over the years...
Sorry my post made you think this. I can assure you Radiomaster isn't paying me to spread the good word, though I wish they were.

I just joined because I only just started indoor carpet racing this season. Before that I only ever really did basher cars but mainly planes and helis and drones. Since like 2010. This thread caught my eye because I put the B6.4 I just built on my flight radio, which is a Radiomaster Boxer with internal ExpressLRS. Had this radio released a couple weeks ago I probably would have bought one. But now that I have a few hours of lapping on the stick radio I think I'm going to stick with that. It's working pretty well for me.

Anyways, I'm really just passionate about Express LRS and Edge TX. The hardware is just so cheap but works so well!

The first big attraction to me was the size of the receivers. You can get them without the pins soldered yet and they weigh like a single gram configured like that. So in ultra light foamie airplanes where you are shooting for 150 grams AUW, you can save like 10 grams going with a receiver like this, no case, no pins, and direct solder the servo wires to it. I put one in my B6.4 as it happens but did solder the pins on it because obviously not as nitpicky when you are aiming for 1490 grams or so. I used a Matek R24-P6. This is another cool thing about EdgeTX and ExpressLRS, since the software is opensource many companies make compatible hardware. Literally any receiver that has ever supported ExpressLRS can be flashed with the newest firmware and bound to any Transmitter that has ever supported ExpressLRS. Tried attached a pic for reference but my post count is too low still.
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Old 11-03-2023, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomillia
You can choose any bindingphrase you want. Make it an combination of a few characters and numbers. I cant prove it mathematically but the chances of someone at the same event at the same time you are on track has to have the same bindingphrase is negligible.
Every ELRS Reciever can create an own wifi network, you can even connect to that with every smartphone via the browser and change the settings. The wifi network won't appear if the transmitter connects to the reciever before a set time has passed. So no one can alter your settings of your reciever while driving.
There is also a Modelmatch option you can turn on in the ELRS Menu of the radio. If this option is active the matched reciever will only work if the corresponding model is selected in the radio. Even when there are more than one active recievers with the same bindingphrase in range.

ELRS has a learning curve for sure but not too bad especially if the transmission protocol is proven reliable and the recievers are between 15 - 20 bucks.
In comparison to the different sanwa protocols available FH3T, FH4T, FH5 the different servo modes SHR, SSR which you can only set while binding the reciever and won't change every time so you have to rebind the reciever a few times.
Which Sanwa Radio supports which protocol and can bind to which reciever .... i think you'll get my point.

With ELRS every reciever works with every transmitter, the only requirement is they need to be on the same major firmware version. And every reciever / transmitter is updatable. (also over the WebGUI you can enter when connecting to the wifi network the reciever provides, the same applies to every transmitter)
Model match is good but I'm still skeptical on the password part.
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Old 11-03-2023, 05:54 PM
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As I said, it's nothing personal, it just looks a bit odd. i simply don't really believe in such miracles and super-revolutionary new tech, that makes everything else become instantly obsolete. That rarely ever really happens, so I get a little wary whenever I hear such claims. And in the past there's been too many occurrences of people making fake promises about the total superiority of their favored new product, that were so blatantly advertising while (unsuccessfully) trying to disguise as "neutral" comments, it made me actually resent what might even have been an otherwise good product only for that fake over the top crap. And no offense, but not being directly paid money for it, is no proof of non-bias. Some people will sell their souls just for a little partial sponsorship deals. Again, not saying you do, but there's enough history of it on these forums. In other words: generally, the higher the praises get, the less i tend to believe them, that's all. And a new account... I'm sure you'll see why that makes me even more wary.
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Old 11-03-2023, 07:43 PM
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Fair enough and I didn't mean to offend. If we are getting technical I'll admit I was even exaggerating with my fastest and most consistent claim, that's not really fact. If you look up test results for end to end latency of all these things you'll find ExpressLRS is about on par with IRC Ghost and Sanwas recent protocols. They are all something like the 2-5ms range for measured latency from my googling. So it's my bad there are definitely no miracles here, it's not making anybody's high end radio obsolete, it's just a higher value option for people looking for a new radio without having to sacrifice much or at all on link performance. And for long range as small as that market is there just simply is no contest and calling an EdgeTX based radio the only option for this purpose is fact. Whether it's this MT12 or one of the many different aircraft radios from many different manufacturers that also use EdgeTX.

Regarding the Passwords(bindphrase), you have to see it to understand it. Your bindphrase can be literally anything, like your handle here on rctech. You could set it to "gigaplexisfast" if you wanted to and what are the chances somebody else configured that same bindphrase? Or you could have a password generator make it a random 24 character password that very nearly guarantees nobody would configure the same bindphrase as you.

I think as these things start showing up out in the wild they will start to catch on. EdgeTX and ExpressLRS are cool firmware and I can't imagine someone familiar with them would entertain a surface radio without it if there is an option, and this one is the first to exist outside of 3D printing a pistol grip radio to put the guts of an Edge TX aircraft radio in. Which some people have done there is a thing on Thingiverse for this. Hopefully this first attempt from RadioMaster has good fit, finish, and ergonomics. Time will tell when people start getting these in hand.

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Old 11-03-2023, 09:33 PM
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If you leave your radio unattended, can someone just go into the menu and view the password in plain text? If yes, that's easy to abuse. If no, then a forgotten password will need to be reset which may make secure passwords hard to remember and tedious to use, increasing the likelihood of a weak password being used. I work in IT and have a healthy dose of skepticism any time there's a password involved without another factor of authentication.
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Old 11-03-2023, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by gigaplex
If you leave your radio unattended, can someone just go into the menu and view the password in plain text? If yes, that's easy to abuse. If no, then a forgotten password will need to be reset which may make secure passwords hard to remember and tedious to use, increasing the likelihood of a weak password being used. I work in IT and have a healthy dose of skepticism any time there's a password involved without another factor of authentication.
What? Why would they? You're reaching here. If someone touched my radio without permission at an event there would be bigger issues to be concern about than passwords lol.
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Old 11-03-2023, 11:57 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by gigaplex
Some of that binding stuff sounds horrible. What happens if two radios happen to have the same password at the same time? What if you're running 2 classes and change model to the second car while the first one is still turned on? I'd want a guarantee that there will be no conflicts and that the other car won't start responding while I'm racing one of them.
Dont do that. with ELRS all bound RX will be controllable by the TX at the same time. Its just the nature of the system. The aforementioned youtuber did a video with just that. He flew 4 drones at the same time with the same single Tx.
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Old 11-04-2023, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by DirkW
As I said, it's nothing personal, it just looks a bit odd. i simply don't really believe in such miracles and super-revolutionary new tech, that makes everything else become instantly obsolete. That rarely ever really happens, so I get a little wary whenever I hear such claims. And in the past there's been too many occurrences of people making fake promises about the total superiority of their favored new product, that were so blatantly advertising while (unsuccessfully) trying to disguise as "neutral" comments, it made me actually resent what might even have been an otherwise good product only for that fake over the top crap. And no offense, but not being directly paid money for it, is no proof of non-bias. Some people will sell their souls just for a little partial sponsorship deals. Again, not saying you do, but there's enough history of it on these forums. In other words: generally, the higher the praises get, the less i tend to believe them, that's all. And a new account... I'm sure you'll see why that makes me even more wary.
Edgetx ( previously opentx ) has been around for over a decade. its not new. we are excited because its LONG overdue in the surface world. once you wrap your head around the direct and open way it works if you are willing to take the time to learn you likely wont want to overpay for another conventional radio again. I cannot overstate how powerful the software is.
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Old 11-04-2023, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Furadi
What? Why would they? You're reaching here. If someone touched my radio without permission at an event there would be bigger issues to be concern about than passwords lol.
Doesn't even need to be at an event. Could be a casual race or practice day, unless you change your password before the event.
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Old 11-04-2023, 02:40 AM
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After all this commercial talk about open TX and all other crap, the kind of customers do not care as long they can control all the lights etc on their crawler.

It is like showing off you have a jailbraked iPhone and nothing done with it.
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Old 11-04-2023, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by gigaplex
Doesn't even need to be at an event. Could be a casual race or practice day, unless you change your password before the event.
So the good news is nobody can go into your radio or receiver and see your bindphrase. The only time it's in plaintext is when you are flashing your receiver or transmitter with new firmware or you are changing it in the webgui. If you are worried about people seeing your bindphrase and sabotaging you then maybe there is a bigger problem where you race than the security of your bind. And besides, there are so many other things people could do to sabotage you when your back is turned how secure the bind is seems like a drop in the bucket. ExpressLRS is arguably the most secure actually. While you can bind elrs traditionally by powercycling the receiver 3 times and puttign the transmitterin bind mode, this does not work if you've set a bindphrase. So where with other manufacturers all you'd have to do to mess with someone's bind is plug in a bind plug or hold a button down, with elrs you'd have to get in the webgui and change the bindphrase or bust out a laptop and reflash the receiver. Not to mention if you are extremely paranoid you can turn off the receiver webgui if you want as part of the flashing options.
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Old 11-05-2023, 01:02 AM
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I'm familar with elrs on my fpv quads.

Stocked on this radio, i've pre-ordered it.
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Old 11-05-2023, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by gigaplex
If you leave your radio unattended, can someone just go into the menu and view the password in plain text? If yes, that's easy to abuse. If no, then a forgotten password will need to be reset which may make secure passwords hard to remember and tedious to use, increasing the likelihood of a weak password being used. I work in IT and have a healthy dose of skepticism any time there's a password involved without another factor of authentication.
Its a password for recievers and rc settings. No banking info, no work info, no personal info. Its not that big of a deal. IT best practices don't really apply, you can have a unique phrase and security would be fine.
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