832LikesTamiya Championship Series
10-23-2008, 12:03 PM
#9362
Tech Regular
GT1 should be open mod, like 3.5T with 2cell lipo. And one set of tires for the race weekend. 
10-23-2008, 02:00 PM
#9363
let me stir the pot a bit more.. where does lipo/nimh play into your equation above?
yes for the 1920371209371th time. per roar rules that were mentioned in the electric forum. by 2009... 10.5 will be slowly phased out. 13.5 becomes the new 19T...and 17.5 becomes the new 27T.
so im "assuming" TCS will follow these rules and have GT1 as 13.5 since it used to be open mod, then 19T... since 19T in 2009 is supposed to be 13.5 per ROAR's rules.
etc... etc...
must be that time of year again (waiting for the rules)....
yes for the 1920371209371th time. per roar rules that were mentioned in the electric forum. by 2009... 10.5 will be slowly phased out. 13.5 becomes the new 19T...and 17.5 becomes the new 27T.
so im "assuming" TCS will follow these rules and have GT1 as 13.5 since it used to be open mod, then 19T... since 19T in 2009 is supposed to be 13.5 per ROAR's rules.
etc... etc...must be that time of year again (waiting for the rules)....
I think ROAR made a big mistake by making the SuperStock motor the 13.5. They should of left it 10.5/19T. There is not much difference in lap times between a 17.5 and 13.5 on most indoor tracks. TCS does not have to follow ROAR rules. Plus it is better to practice and race TCS with a 10.5, then go to a ROAR event with a 13.5. Your performance will be better.
My reasoning is:
The 13.5 motor is a marvelous motor among all the BL variants. It has the largest range of FDR. You can run a FDR from 5.0 down below a 3.1 FDR. Therefore you can gear it to be tame for a small tight track and then put the biggest pinion, heat sink, and multiple fans and go hunt down a 10.5BL/19T on a large track. The 10.5 BL in comparison has a narrow gear range. 5.8-4.6. I am using the Novak motors for reference because they are consistent to meltdown at the same 190 deg temp.
In a 13.5 class race, the cars are fast, but not fast enough to give the edge to a great driver in passing a good driver. The first temptation is to gear up beyond 200 deg., change the timing, then speed controller. If the other guy is still dragging you down the straight. Then monkeying around with the motor is a big incentive.
After each 13.5 race heat, finding more speed through the motor is always an issue. That is why you will see the pinion racks on every racers table ready to gear up. If the racer is geared up to the max, then they will claim that the other guy got to be cheating.
If you noticed at the 2008 TCS nats, none of the GT1 racers complained about motors, car not fast enough, or can't find a pinion big enough. The main obstacle was working on car setup and trying to get a clean 5 min. run without putting the car on the roof.
The 10.5 is the closest thing to Mod yet not crazy fast to destroy a car on impact, tear up the belts, or rebuilding diffs every other round. Open Mod racing is crazy expensive for the average TCS club racer. At the 2008 ROAR Nats, I've seen both Tamiya team drivers David Jun and Josh Numan tear half of their cars off by barely touching a wall. It is not a nice site picking up bent and broken Tamiya-blue aluminum parts off the track.
In Mod racing, you have to bring complete spare cars and a suitcase full of spare parts if you want to be competitive. It is evident that the major sponsors in today's economy can't even keep up with the cost of open mod racing. Much less racing on your own wallet.
10-23-2008, 02:11 PM
#9364
I think ROAR made a big mistake by making the SuperStock motor the 13.5. They should of left it 10.5/19T. There is not much difference in lap times between a 17.5 and 13.5 on most indoor tracks. TCS does not have to follow ROAR rules. Plus it is better to practice and race TCS with a 10.5, then go to a ROAR event with a 13.5. Your performance will be better.
My reasoning is:
The 13.5 motor is a marvelous motor among all the BL variants. It has the largest range of FDR. You can run a FDR from 5.0 down below a 3.1 FDR. Therefore you can gear it to be tame for a small tight track and then put the biggest pinion, heat sink, and multiple fans and go hunt down a 10.5BL/19T on a large track. The 10.5 BL in comparison has a narrow gear range. 5.8-4.6. I am using the Novak motors for reference because they are consistent to meltdown at the same 190 deg temp.
In a 13.5 class race, the cars are fast, but not fast enough to give the edge to a great driver in passing a good driver. The first temptation is to gear up beyond 200 deg., change the timing, then speed controller. If the other guy is still dragging you down the straight. Then monkeying around with the motor is a big incentive.
After each 13.5 race heat, finding more speed through the motor is always an issue. That is why you will see the pinion racks on every racers table ready to gear up. If the racer is geared up to the max, then they will claim that the other guy got to be cheating.
If you noticed at the 2008 TCS nats, none of the GT1 racers complained about motors, car not fast enough, or can't find a pinion big enough. The main obstacle was working on car setup and trying to get a clean 5 min. run without putting the car on the roof.
The 10.5 is the closest thing to Mod yet not crazy fast to destroy a car on impact, tear up the belts, or rebuilding diffs every other round. Open Mod racing is crazy expensive for the average TCS club racer. At the 2008 ROAR Nats, I've seen both Tamiya team drivers David Jun and Josh Numan tear half of their cars off by barely touching a wall. It is not a nice site picking up bent and broken Tamiya-blue aluminum parts off the track. In Mod racing, you have to bring complete spare cars and a suitcase full of spare parts if you want to be competitive. It is evident that the major sponsors in today's economy can't even keep up with the cost of open mod racing. Much less racing on your own wallet.
My reasoning is:
The 13.5 motor is a marvelous motor among all the BL variants. It has the largest range of FDR. You can run a FDR from 5.0 down below a 3.1 FDR. Therefore you can gear it to be tame for a small tight track and then put the biggest pinion, heat sink, and multiple fans and go hunt down a 10.5BL/19T on a large track. The 10.5 BL in comparison has a narrow gear range. 5.8-4.6. I am using the Novak motors for reference because they are consistent to meltdown at the same 190 deg temp.
In a 13.5 class race, the cars are fast, but not fast enough to give the edge to a great driver in passing a good driver. The first temptation is to gear up beyond 200 deg., change the timing, then speed controller. If the other guy is still dragging you down the straight. Then monkeying around with the motor is a big incentive.
After each 13.5 race heat, finding more speed through the motor is always an issue. That is why you will see the pinion racks on every racers table ready to gear up. If the racer is geared up to the max, then they will claim that the other guy got to be cheating.
If you noticed at the 2008 TCS nats, none of the GT1 racers complained about motors, car not fast enough, or can't find a pinion big enough. The main obstacle was working on car setup and trying to get a clean 5 min. run without putting the car on the roof.
The 10.5 is the closest thing to Mod yet not crazy fast to destroy a car on impact, tear up the belts, or rebuilding diffs every other round. Open Mod racing is crazy expensive for the average TCS club racer. At the 2008 ROAR Nats, I've seen both Tamiya team drivers David Jun and Josh Numan tear half of their cars off by barely touching a wall. It is not a nice site picking up bent and broken Tamiya-blue aluminum parts off the track.
In Mod racing, you have to bring complete spare cars and a suitcase full of spare parts if you want to be competitive. It is evident that the major sponsors in today's economy can't even keep up with the cost of open mod racing. Much less racing on your own wallet. if i had it my way... well if i had it my way... id own the tamiya track. so nevermind. im assuming lipos are the "norm" now for TCS racers? i havent heard anyone complain about it yet.
10-23-2008, 02:22 PM
#9365
im not contending with your ideas...... i just restated the fact that TCS follows ROAR..and ROAR says 10.5 is out. if i had it my way... well if i had it my way... id own the tamiya track. so nevermind.
im assuming lipos are the "norm" now for TCS racers? i havent heard anyone complain about it yet.
if i had it my way... well if i had it my way... id own the tamiya track. so nevermind. im assuming lipos are the "norm" now for TCS racers? i havent heard anyone complain about it yet.
It was great meeting you. Your concourse Evo was slammed.
10-23-2008, 02:34 PM
#9367
The TCS races are a ball and a half arent they !?
10-23-2008, 02:40 PM
#9368
10-23-2008, 03:19 PM
#9369
good grief what happened in here. yeh bernard is right bout TA, however he still needs to back away from the keyboard some times. at the east coast race, even if u were good and had a 008, u were still a sitting duck with a 17.5 or brushed vs a cyclone tub car and a 21.5/lipo. my IFSR still sits on the shelf with its camaro body on it-never run. there all great ideas, but like all forms, people are too focused on winning.
sadly, as i can attest, it doesnt feel any different, even as soon as on the drive home. did you have fun today?
f1 wont work in its current form b/c people will break cars on the pipes/boards, folks will kill foams when they hit those same pipes/boards or each other, can wars will ensue, the foam bill will be crazy, and it'll go the way it did before. it sux, b/c i want to see it more than most. but thats just how it is.
the senior spec deal is what we needed a couple yrs before in the mid-at after RCO folded and took its legendary spec program with it. its a stupid fun class that folks need to get behind. you can toss 100bux in ceramic bearings in it and it doesnt help, that and the 1st doink into the wall will not only cost you an 'A' bag but a 5$ bearing too.
R
sadly, as i can attest, it doesnt feel any different, even as soon as on the drive home. did you have fun today?
f1 wont work in its current form b/c people will break cars on the pipes/boards, folks will kill foams when they hit those same pipes/boards or each other, can wars will ensue, the foam bill will be crazy, and it'll go the way it did before. it sux, b/c i want to see it more than most. but thats just how it is.
the senior spec deal is what we needed a couple yrs before in the mid-at after RCO folded and took its legendary spec program with it. its a stupid fun class that folks need to get behind. you can toss 100bux in ceramic bearings in it and it doesnt help, that and the 1st doink into the wall will not only cost you an 'A' bag but a 5$ bearing too.
R
10-23-2008, 04:56 PM
#9371
Back up information (not necessary to read)
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Recently, I had the privilege to tech inspect a large Trans Am race under the USVTA Trans Am rules. Basically, USVTA started as a low cost class for racers to have realistic looking cars that weren’t too fast and be “uncontrollable”. And also to attract older racers that might have older equipment, motor and batteries, that can be still competitive. Within 9 months I witnessed how a racing program/rules evolve to their natural destiny – high cost and fast. We started off seeing racers running older TL01, TC3 and FK05, TRF414. Now racers are buying brand new TRF416, EVO-5, Cyclones etc. Out went the older 4 cell batteries and brushed motor, in came $250 ESC and $80 21.5BL and $200 worth of ceramic bearings.
The average Trans Am car now cost more to be competitive than the average TC and is just as fast as a 17.5/27T sedan. Go figure.
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Recently, I had the privilege to tech inspect a large Trans Am race under the USVTA Trans Am rules. Basically, USVTA started as a low cost class for racers to have realistic looking cars that weren’t too fast and be “uncontrollable”. And also to attract older racers that might have older equipment, motor and batteries, that can be still competitive. Within 9 months I witnessed how a racing program/rules evolve to their natural destiny – high cost and fast. We started off seeing racers running older TL01, TC3 and FK05, TRF414. Now racers are buying brand new TRF416, EVO-5, Cyclones etc. Out went the older 4 cell batteries and brushed motor, in came $250 ESC and $80 21.5BL and $200 worth of ceramic bearings.
The average Trans Am car now cost more to be competitive than the average TC and is just as fast as a 17.5/27T sedan. Go figure.
I STRONGLY disagree with you on the cost of T/A equipment. I am still running a TRF 414 in Trans-Am. Of the last four races I attended, I have TQ'd 3 of them and was 2nd qualifier in the other. I am running a two year old Orion Lipo, an $80 used GTB, a remanufactured Novk 21.5 and a 4.36 final drive ratio. (4.20 is limit) I may make a small suspension change once or twice a night and between rounds I charge my battery, clean the body, sauce the tires and enjoy my evenings. This has got to be the most hassle free, cost effective racing I have ever done adding to the emense fun this class brings.
Trans-Am tires, bodies and power options make this a drivers class with minimal set-up chasing and very low maintainence.
If You want Randy to be a Pro Driver, TCS is a great place to have him learn, but don't make the mistake that TCS is the same as Pro Racing. Never was and I hope it never gets there. And please don't try to make it so. Or I just may have to steel your bicycle...
lol......Marty
10-23-2008, 05:57 PM
#9372
Tech Master
iTrader: (2)
I wonder if they will bring back "vintage FF/TA02" as a class?
It is fun seeing all the speculations and arguments on the rules.
I have not much to say other than whenever they are, whatever they are, it will not really change anything for me. .
Although I did not have to run mod to tear off arms, hubs and even melt a wheel at TA. . .
It is fun seeing all the speculations and arguments on the rules.
I have not much to say other than whenever they are, whatever they are, it will not really change anything for me. .
Although I did not have to run mod to tear off arms, hubs and even melt a wheel at TA. . .
10-23-2008, 06:26 PM
#9373
does anyone want the drivers handbook for this years worlds?
10-24-2008, 05:39 AM
#9375
Tech Elite
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Land of the Free, Home of the Brave
Posts: 2,928
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Has anyone started to run a brushless in GT3? If so, what motor and was there a gearing or weight limit?