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all this talk about a dyno.. i really wish someone would make a dyno that allows you to setup your engine in a car and then take your readings at the wheel... that would be best bet... until then guys... lets keep on track with the thread topic... dyno results mean nothing to me... but that's just me
They do make these!!!;) |
Originally Posted by THE PHILLY JYNX
(Post 8604712)
a
They do make these!!!;) |
Originally Posted by kgombe
(Post 8604723)
point me in the right direction... cause all i care about is setting my car up to get maximum power at the wheel... :D so i can shim adjust my driveline to suit....
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Originally Posted by THE PHILLY JYNX
(Post 8604725)
Dont think your going to want to pay for it.
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Originally Posted by Maximo
(Post 8604692)
I can totally relate to what your saying in that engine suits your needs exactly the way it is........However I was asked to dyno one of these engines...I have agreed to do it...... But all I am seeing now is a bunch of flack for offering my services.....It seems everyone is already assuming the engine will read low or something....myself IDK, it hasn't been tested and I have no idea what numbers it will produce... But from my experience so far pretty much all stock engines make about the same amount of power and RPM....For the most part they are all very competitive with each other..Whoever has the best tune and setup will have the faster engine of the day, as well these engines power tends to fade over time..And a nearly worn out engine will not make as much power as a freshly broken in engine.........So when comparing at the track there are soo many variables involved that its nearly impossible to tell which engine really does offer the most performance........
As for modded engines, not all modified are the same...just because an engine is modified definitely does not ensure it will put out big power numbers on a dyno...quite the contrary actually.....Many times amateur modified engines make less power then stock, or may make more peak power but have a terrible curve..The only way to ensure high dyno numbers is to actually tune the engine using a dyno..there are only 4 engine modders in North America who own a dyno that I know of..... My dyno procedure is as follows... I hand lap the piston to a exact tolerance... I do a short breakin... I test the engine on a base setup..stock shims, recommended plug and pipe...I then start tweaking the engine...changing shims, changing pipes and changing plug.... I spend hours on the stock engine finding its absolute best setup possible.... I do this for every engine I test.........Not all these engines come from factory shimmed the same, even 2 engines of the same brand/model can have as much as .020"difference in head clearance... So be sure I get the full story of the engine in stock form I test many different combination's....Some engines respond really well to removing a shim, others do not...some come from factory shimmed ideal, some do not.......When I compare 2 engines I am adamant about equalizing all the different variables...from mechanical pinch to ideal operating compression .... And in the end after all that testing I have concluded that pretty much all stock engines are about the same.... Once again, I am not the enemy here..I was asked to dyno one of these engines, and I thought it would be neat to see.....But unfortunately by the looks of things nobody here is interested nor wants me to actually test the engine.....So I think I am going to have to back out of this whole scenario graciously ! I never came here looking to argue and its unfortunate some people here have to come out 2 guns blazing before they even took the time to understand the point I was trying to make.... Though I'm sure you know your way around an engine, I do frankly doubt that you are capable of being objective. Aren't you a Werks dealer? Are you really going to spend all the time and effort setting that Argus up that you have to find the ideal Werks setup? You don't sell Argus on your website as far as I know.. |
Originally Posted by THE PHILLY JYNX
(Post 8604712)
all this talk about a dyno.. i really wish someone would make a dyno that allows you to setup your engine in a car and then take your readings at the wheel... that would be best bet... until then guys... lets keep on track with the thread topic... dyno results mean nothing to me... but that's just me
They do make these!!!;) There are actually a few affordable chassis dynos on the market....One of them that installs directly onto the hub of the vehicle....I would already have one, but my job is developing engines and engines only, not drivetrains/clutches....Chassis dyno is a great tool, but for me adds too many variables to the equation for testing just engines on their own.... |
Originally Posted by Herrsavage
(Post 8604739)
Gracious"?..
Though I'm sure you know your way around an engine, I do very much frankly doubt that you are capable of being objective. Aren't you a Werks dealer? Are you really going to spend all the time and effort setting that Argus up that you have to find the ideal Werks setup? You don't sell Argus on your website as far as I know.. Regardless of everything you say, you are one of the most disingenuous people on all these forums.. i had to look that up... lol |
Originally Posted by Herrsavage
(Post 8604739)
"Gracious"?..
Though I'm sure you know your way around an engine, I do frankly doubt that you are capable of being objective. Aren't you a Werks dealer? Are you really going to spend all the time and effort setting that Argus up that you have to find the ideal Werks setup? You don't sell Argus on your website as far as I know.. |
Folks.......................take a breath.
Neil has been an engine modder much longer than a Werks dealer. He compares engine performance on a dyno. He compares FACTS. I know racing isn't all about facts, but when you are trying to improve ANYTHING, recorded data is one of the best tools. Many times he's stated he'll mod anyone's engine. His modded B6 Werks are one of the most powerful engines he's found. The dyno proves that. Does that mean that if I have him mod a GO and it has less power than the B6 it's junk? No. If he mods an Argus and it has more power than the B6, does that make the B6 junk? No. Please remember he accurately compares engine performance. Nothing more, nothing less. Does he have a favorite engine? Of course. Do you? Of course. "We are all the same, just different". Moto |
Apologize for sounding harsh.. This is the worst time of year for me.. Middle in this long stretch of winter when I really want to spend my weekends outside running my RC's, but it's too miserable out!.. So sorry for being a grump... :flaming::cry:
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Off the record ! :blush: but I actually enjoy playing with all the different engine brands... maximizing an engines performance is something I take great pride and enjoyment in...whether be it stock or modified , a Go or a Werk's, it doesn't matter to me.... Saying I would intentionally detune one brand to make another look good goes against everything that I take pride in........ Ask around the forums a little..I have spent hundreds of hours helping hundreds of guys dial in their engines to the max, whether they bought the engine from me or not, whether its a brand I like or not, whether its modified or not....Yes I have my preferred brands, and I can give clear accurate and truthful reasons why they are my preferred brands...But because I have justified preferences does not in any way make me biased..........Truth is I likely know more about your preferred brands then you do, and also a good chance I have more experience with them as well................ I am not biased...I just know what I like in an engine, and I choose what I carry and modify based on that....not the other way around....
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I have spoke to neal in depth on many different subjects pertaining to every line of race engine around. never heard him knock any or one engine. i do believe he gets on to new hot engines and mods then updates mods from his facility at times(large quanity, lots of different brands and all them(engines) different that work for different uses. makes it hard to keep up with him(that makes him that much more versitile)) discussing with neal he has with many of my mills explained what to do when in certain situations. not to mention the countless other peeps he's helped as well. quite amazing the plethera of experience neal brings to rc engines. he is appreciated acrossed the gammet of racing. also by the way i have never bought or given neal any money although surely one day he will be the only person i will deal with
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Originally Posted by Maximo
(Post 8561419)
I will have a Argus going on my dyno very soon............then we will see whats what with these mills......... The Werk's engines crank out huge HP once you pull the breakin shim, so I am going to shocked if it matches the Werk's.......
When someone has already formed their opinion before ever running the motor (or see the motor for that matter), it makes me a little cautious about wanting them to share their results. You posted the long spill responding to people that pulled Novas down the straight and all of the variations that could have resulted and how the dyno tells the truth. To me, this appears that you are calling these people liars, which I personally know one of these people....so yes, I took offense to that. If you did not mean it this way and I took out of context, I apologize. Do I think Dynos for rc engines are the best tool to determine performance? No. You already mentions several variables that could be a factor. If I dyno engine A at 1/4 gallon, it will not produce the same results as it will at one gallon. However, I do think that as long as you are using the same dyno on two engines, you can accurately compare the engines performance at that time. If the two engines are broken in and tuned properly, I see no issue with this. I just found it ironic that you were going to compare the Werks to the Argus, but have not found postings were you were going to compare Werks to any other brand (not to say you havn't, just have not seen it). I would love to see your numbers on the Argus. Regardless of the results, I know what the engine is capable of on the track, which is what I think JJenkins was referring to "Proof in the Pudding", and am very happy. My only point was that, since you have already stated that Werks produced major HP, you do a lot of business on Werks, and you personally like Werks better than anything else, you compare stock to stock after complete engine break in. |
Originally Posted by kgombe
(Post 8604462)
why does almost all engine threads end up like this???... whats the common factor here???... lets find it fix it or get rid of it and be happy
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Originally Posted by outamoney
(Post 8605234)
OK, This is were we started from....sounds like this was degrading an Argus, which you said you have never ever done? You have already formed your opinion before you ever seen an Argus in person, much less ran one. This is why I come out in your words "Guns a blazin". I could not care about your reputation as an engine mod, engine knowledge, mechanic, tuner, or anything else. If you are the professional engine man that you claim, I would get the facts by doing your professional research and then simply post the results. I am not doubting your knowledge or expertise...simply that you already have stated in the post and others that Werks in simply the best. And then you talk about everyone else that thinks their motors are the fastest....looks like you are in the same boat as everyone else.
When someone has already formed their opinion before ever running the motor (or see the motor for that matter), it makes me a little cautious about wanting them to share their results. You posted the long spill responding to people that pulled Novas down the straight and all of the variations that could have resulted and how the dyno tells the truth. To me, this appears that you are calling these people liars, which I personally know one of these people....so yes, I took offense to that. If you did not mean it this way and I took out of context, I apologize. Do I think Dynos for rc engines are the best tool to determine performance? No. You already mentions several variables that could be a factor. If I dyno engine A at 1/4 gallon, it will not produce the same results as it will at one gallon. However, I do think that as long as you are using the same dyno on two engines, you can accurately compare the engines performance at that time. If the two engines are broken in and tuned properly, I see no issue with this. I just found it ironic that you were going to compare the Werks to the Argus, but have not found postings were you were going to compare Werks to any other brand (not to say you havn't, just have not seen it). I would love to see your numbers on the Argus. Regardless of the results, I know what the engine is capable of on the track, which is what I think JJenkins was referring to "Proof in the Pudding", and am very happy. My only point was that, since you have already stated that Werks produced major HP, you do a lot of business on Werks, and you personally like Werks better than anything else, you compare stock to stock after complete engine break in. Having an opinion about the Argus matching the Werk's is my right to have, plus it was right in context with the thread direction.....Yes the Werk's do make great power for a stock engine, definitely among the strongest I have tested... No dissin on the Argus but I will definitely be shocked if it matched or exceeded the Werk's output...However me saying that will have absolutely no impact on my test results, one way or the other......The engine will make what the engine will make, and none of my speculation or yours will have any effect on it whatsoever....I have been wrong before, and I am sure I will be wrong again... As for the stories..If I intended to call people liars, I would have come outright and called people liars.... However this is not what I think at all.... Which is why I tried very hard to mention all the different variables that can affect track performance, and why a properly done dyno comparison is the only real way to measure these engines.......I am sure nobody is lying, maybe a few embellishments here and there, but for the most part people are all telling the truth as they see it.... Which once again confirms people's judgment will never replace a dyno...As I pointed out these stories exist for every brand vs every other brand...talk to one guy and his Plus 4 was smoking everyone down the straight, talk another guy at the same race and he will tell you his Alpha was smoking everything down the straight...A little search thru the posts on this forum will show you exactly that.............. So where does this leave us ? Are people from all the other brands lying and Argus is the only ones pulling them all down the straight ? I mean not everyone's engine can be faster then everyone else when we are all talking about the same engines.......So either everyone is lying, or people's perceptions are not really the most reliable method for evaluating a engines performance vs its peers... |
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