52LikesEuropean 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class
08-23-2013, 01:06 PM
#2986
Comments on Vintage Pan (Direct Drive)
I made a comment on the Vintage Pan (Direct Drive) car on the "Spec 1/8" Thread....
08-23-2013, 08:31 PM
#2987
I think its misleading in general to call modern pan cars "European Style". Its not a European style, but a current pan car. We call them this because there are no pan cars being made in other regions of the world other than Europe. Thanks to the French and Italian racers, the class has been kept alive, and they are making current designs. Its not a European design, its the current state of pan car evolution.
The notion that an "American Style" pan car would be different is false. The RC300 was the last car available here, but saying that it is an American style pan car really means its an old pan car design. When Europeans, Asians and Americans were all making pan cars in the 1970s, there were a variety of designs but they were all generally similar.
If American companies hadn't stopped making pan cars, we would have an Associated (or brand x) car that would look something like the current cars from France and Italy, and we wouldn't be calling this the "European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class." We would just call it the 2wd pan car thread. But thanks to the interest and passion in France, the class never died, and we are now catching up.
We all love vintage rc cars, thats a given in this forum, but what seems lost on some of you is that the pan car, like all rc classes, always evolves. From 1970-1980 all pan cars changed, thats the nature of this sport.
In 1979, you wouldn't have expected racers to be saying "I hate this new Super J, we need to run the RC100 because thats an original pan car". In other words, there is no such thing as an American or European pan car, or a real pan car, or an original car.
We stopped making them in the US and we bailed out of the normal evolution of the class which continued on without us. Pan cars have always evolved, and always will. There is no real one to go back to.
And, to be clear, the current pan cars being manufactured now are essentially the SG Indy VCS design, a car that was made 34 years ago. If you want a bullet proof car, make a bolt on front end and lets go race. Thats the main difference.
The notion that an "American Style" pan car would be different is false. The RC300 was the last car available here, but saying that it is an American style pan car really means its an old pan car design. When Europeans, Asians and Americans were all making pan cars in the 1970s, there were a variety of designs but they were all generally similar.
If American companies hadn't stopped making pan cars, we would have an Associated (or brand x) car that would look something like the current cars from France and Italy, and we wouldn't be calling this the "European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class." We would just call it the 2wd pan car thread. But thanks to the interest and passion in France, the class never died, and we are now catching up.
We all love vintage rc cars, thats a given in this forum, but what seems lost on some of you is that the pan car, like all rc classes, always evolves. From 1970-1980 all pan cars changed, thats the nature of this sport.
In 1979, you wouldn't have expected racers to be saying "I hate this new Super J, we need to run the RC100 because thats an original pan car". In other words, there is no such thing as an American or European pan car, or a real pan car, or an original car.
We stopped making them in the US and we bailed out of the normal evolution of the class which continued on without us. Pan cars have always evolved, and always will. There is no real one to go back to.
And, to be clear, the current pan cars being manufactured now are essentially the SG Indy VCS design, a car that was made 34 years ago. If you want a bullet proof car, make a bolt on front end and lets go race. Thats the main difference.
Last edited by MrHistory; 08-23-2013 at 08:56 PM.
08-23-2013, 09:00 PM
#2988
Regarding the plastic, I believe it's a good thing, not a bad thing. Its not unreasonably fragile and I prefer a plastic car because you are more likely to isolate damage to one part like a knuckle, which you take off and replace. An aluminum car gets bent and causes all sorts of problems further into the core of the chassis. This is true with current 4wd cars as well. I ran a Capricorn which is mostly aluminum, and switched to an Xray because the car is much more durable and doesn't have the tweak issues.
08-23-2013, 09:24 PM
#2989
Nostalgia becomes a distortion of the actual history of RC car racing. If you think back to John Thorp's pan cars, the idealism one may have about original pan cars seems false.
John made very innovative pan cars. He created a diff, he had a leaf spring front suspension, and a belt driven progressive transmission. His designs are now some of the most prized pan cars from that time, and in no way do Thorp cars adhear to this idea that pan cars should be bulletproof direct drive single speeds. In fact, the Thorp car (and other designs) are not allowed in this class today. His front end had springs, which are not allowed, and was fragile. His transmission would not be allowed today because it is not a true single speed. It had a belt and a diff too.
When John was creating and driving his cars, there was a lot of backlash from Associated. Gene Husting made fun of his car at races, calling it the "Sewing Machine" because it used actual sewing machine rubber belts. John was very creative and made unique cars that were more sophisticated than some of the others in production. He was an innovator, and thats what rc racing is all about.
This thread has reduced the idea of "original pan car" to the Super J and RC 300. There were many other cars in production at that time, with a variety of designs, various levels of durability, weight, and performance. Manufacturers were not thinking about making one car for all time, instead they were pushing to innovate in order to get an edge. And I don't see why this creativity and innovation should stop now so that we can recreate a time that never existed.
John made very innovative pan cars. He created a diff, he had a leaf spring front suspension, and a belt driven progressive transmission. His designs are now some of the most prized pan cars from that time, and in no way do Thorp cars adhear to this idea that pan cars should be bulletproof direct drive single speeds. In fact, the Thorp car (and other designs) are not allowed in this class today. His front end had springs, which are not allowed, and was fragile. His transmission would not be allowed today because it is not a true single speed. It had a belt and a diff too.
When John was creating and driving his cars, there was a lot of backlash from Associated. Gene Husting made fun of his car at races, calling it the "Sewing Machine" because it used actual sewing machine rubber belts. John was very creative and made unique cars that were more sophisticated than some of the others in production. He was an innovator, and thats what rc racing is all about.
This thread has reduced the idea of "original pan car" to the Super J and RC 300. There were many other cars in production at that time, with a variety of designs, various levels of durability, weight, and performance. Manufacturers were not thinking about making one car for all time, instead they were pushing to innovate in order to get an edge. And I don't see why this creativity and innovation should stop now so that we can recreate a time that never existed.
08-23-2013, 09:41 PM
#2990
I'm new to this forum and to this thread but I'm going to chime in. There is an old saying "Speed costs money; How fast do you want to go?" I believe its attributed to Graham Hill and he was speaking to a sponsor. You make some valid points BUT back when John and Gene and the other pioneers of the sport were racing, 1/8 pan cars were the "State of the Art" and the innovation pushed the cars and racing into full suspension and 4WD.
This new pan car concept is NOT attempting to be anything of the kind. It is "Spec" racing. It's Formula Ford not Formula One. I use that analogy because one can buy a FF or FV that was made 30 years ago and be competitive with ones that are made today. The limit to innovation is what keeps the class inexpensive. One doesn't have to go out and buy the latest greatest trick part or trick engine or new chassis to stay in the game.
This new pan car concept is NOT attempting to be anything of the kind. It is "Spec" racing. It's Formula Ford not Formula One. I use that analogy because one can buy a FF or FV that was made 30 years ago and be competitive with ones that are made today. The limit to innovation is what keeps the class inexpensive. One doesn't have to go out and buy the latest greatest trick part or trick engine or new chassis to stay in the game.
08-23-2013, 10:05 PM
#2991
Glad to have you join us Scott. My points are not directed at you but are a general response to the broader conversation thats ongoing.
There are perhaps two camps. I don't believe this a spec class per say. I do believe its a much cheaper class that is open to everyone, at any skill level. The basic rules limit the money one can spend to get speed and in my opinion that is what makes this a great category to race. Motor and tire costs are minuscule compared to sedan and 1:8 open. And vintage type cars are definitely welcome, no question.
I do believe in innovation within the rules, and that is what the new cars are. Similar to 1/12 scale racing, 2wd buggy racing, etc. It is what it is, but there is still innovation. And the pricing is pretty much the same as its always been. Its simply a cheaper class for all the obvious reasons, and easy to maintain.
My points are primarily about the anti-new-car-attitude. I say everyone should feel free to buy a car, or scratch build a car, or restore a car, but come out and race with us. Whatever turns you on!
There are perhaps two camps. I don't believe this a spec class per say. I do believe its a much cheaper class that is open to everyone, at any skill level. The basic rules limit the money one can spend to get speed and in my opinion that is what makes this a great category to race. Motor and tire costs are minuscule compared to sedan and 1:8 open. And vintage type cars are definitely welcome, no question.
I do believe in innovation within the rules, and that is what the new cars are. Similar to 1/12 scale racing, 2wd buggy racing, etc. It is what it is, but there is still innovation. And the pricing is pretty much the same as its always been. Its simply a cheaper class for all the obvious reasons, and easy to maintain.
My points are primarily about the anti-new-car-attitude. I say everyone should feel free to buy a car, or scratch build a car, or restore a car, but come out and race with us. Whatever turns you on!
08-24-2013, 11:52 AM
#2992
Good points. And you're right that the goal should be to encourage racing so that the hobby can grow. Most of my concerns involve "the rules". I was dismayed when I returned to the hobby and found that "Thingies" had taken over every class for bodies (other than GT or VTA). History repeats itself. The only reason this occurred was because the folks in charge of the rule set allowed it. Innovation within the set rules is fine, the difficulty lies in attempting to anticipate change and to allow or disallow these changes as the case may be to the betterment of the hobby.
08-24-2013, 12:30 PM
#2993
Hold the phone!!!!!
MrHistory,
I think you may be missing the point I am trying to make. First of all, look at the title of this thread. "European" is in the title. If you have a better way to differentiate between the "Current, state of the art, belt drive pan cars" (Called "Classic" in the rest of the world) and the Retro, vintage, direct drive pan cars (Vintage?) have at it. I am interested in both type of cars and see a place for both.
The discussions for the last 3 or so years show there are basically two schools of thought on "Pan" car racing. The double reduction drive and direct drive. The current crop of "Pan" cars nearly all have there origins in Europe based on 4wd rear drive set-ups with some type of non- suspension front end, many times using the same parts for the front as the 4wd.
My point is that although the EURO/MODERN/CLASSIC Pan Car is great machine and very popular in some places, there may be another option. I continually try to get the discussion of direct drive cars off of this thread on onto a more appropriate one. The "No frills-Spec..." thread seems appropriate.
Hope you are having a good time in Toledo!
\Ned
I think you may be missing the point I am trying to make. First of all, look at the title of this thread. "European" is in the title. If you have a better way to differentiate between the "Current, state of the art, belt drive pan cars" (Called "Classic" in the rest of the world) and the Retro, vintage, direct drive pan cars (Vintage?) have at it. I am interested in both type of cars and see a place for both.
The discussions for the last 3 or so years show there are basically two schools of thought on "Pan" car racing. The double reduction drive and direct drive. The current crop of "Pan" cars nearly all have there origins in Europe based on 4wd rear drive set-ups with some type of non- suspension front end, many times using the same parts for the front as the 4wd.
My point is that although the EURO/MODERN/CLASSIC Pan Car is great machine and very popular in some places, there may be another option. I continually try to get the discussion of direct drive cars off of this thread on onto a more appropriate one. The "No frills-Spec..." thread seems appropriate.
Hope you are having a good time in Toledo!
\Ned
08-24-2013, 12:44 PM
#2994
Rules Comment
Most of my concerns involve "the rules". I was dismayed when I returned to the hobby and found that "Thingies" had taken over every class for bodies (other than GT or VTA). History repeats itself. The only reason this occurred was because the folks in charge of the rule set allowed it. Innovation within the set rules is fine, the difficulty lies in attempting to anticipate change and to allow or disallow these changes as the case may be to the betterment of the hobby.
When we originally started running the pan cars in Toledo a few years ago, GT bodies were used (Motonica). The idea was to be different from the Open 4wd cars and possible attract new racers who liked more "scale" cars. It did not take long for the go fast boys to decide the open bodies were faster and easier to drive, so bye, bye GT bodies!
Some of us even got together an order for old school GT bodies from Italy and to my knowledge none have been used.Looked at your album! Although I raced in Toledo and the Midwest, the pics look very similar to mine! I knew Joe Sullivan pretty well from ROAR and him coming to the big Toledo RC Show when RC cars were really big!!
08-24-2013, 01:02 PM
#2995
Attitude
I want to again make it perfectly clear that I do not have a "anti-new car attitude"!!! I merely am interested in both and again I continue to try to steer the vintage pan discussions away from this thread.
In Toledo there have been Motonicas, RC300's, a Delta, a DFX Vortex, a WRC, the hicharide special, the frankinMatt, and a Davis Serpent based car run. So the club has certainly done what you are saying!!!
08-24-2013, 02:02 PM
#2996
I want to again make it perfectly clear that I do not have a "anti-new car attitude"!!! I merely am interested in both and again I continue to try to steer the vintage pan discussions away from this thread.
In Toledo there have been Motonicas, RC300's, a Delta, a DFX Vortex, a WRC, the hicharide special, the frankinMatt, and a Davis Serpent based car run. So the club has certainly done what you are saying!!!
In Toledo there have been Motonicas, RC300's, a Delta, a DFX Vortex, a WRC, the hicharide special, the frankinMatt, and a Davis Serpent based car run. So the club has certainly done what you are saying!!!
08-24-2013, 02:29 PM
#2997
.there is almost no interest in anything these days that takes any effort....( and I do give a HUGE Kudos to grandpa Lon for getting the grand kids interested)...I feel the younger generation...(talking like i'm real old)....want everything to come easy.....and 1/8 4WD is not easy or CHEAP......theres where the PANS come in....easy(r) and way cheaper.....now all we need is a cheap AMERICAN pan...
08-24-2013, 08:43 PM
#2998
good points all of you, i have recently taken a step back too look. we have basically met our goal of creating a fun cheap class with these cars. however 0 public response, tough sell these days. i love the class but hard too justify 10$ in border fees plus the hassle for only 8 or so cars in the midwest. my last off road main had 11 cars plus some still in the b main with some drivers at a travel race. what happened too the on road interest should be our main objective.
Unfortunately when you say "8 or so cars in the Midwest" They are nearly all in Toledo. There seems to be very little participation/interest in the other Midwest Series cities. Bummer.I hope the New York effort has more luck that California and the Midwest...
When you look at the GLC entries, the classes in which there are "Masters" and "Open" are very close in numbers of entries. To me this indicates a difficult future for gas on-road. I agree we need to figure out what happened to the in-road interest but doubt it can be turned around. The "instant gratification" we have discussed before seems to me to be the biggest reason along with so many options, especially off-road.
Ham radio has the same type issues. I have heard they eliminated the morse code requirements to try to increase interest.
Enjoy whatever part of the hobby you can! I should take my own advice since there are all kinds of 1/10 scale races much nearer than Toledo/Cinci!!
Later,
Ned
08-26-2013, 08:07 PM
#2999
Tech Regular
You Gotta get out of that place!
good points all of you, i have recently taken a step back too look. we have basically met our goal of creating a fun cheap class with these cars. however 0 public response, tough sell these days. i love the class but hard too justify 10$ in border fees plus the hassle for only 8 or so cars in the midwest. my last off road main had 11 cars plus some still in the b main with some drivers at a travel race. what happened too the on road interest should be our main objective.
Next plan: tie some sheets together and climb out the back window! We miss and want you here! Get a new plan, Sam! Don't need to be coy, Roy! Just slip out the back Jack! Set yourself free!
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08-27-2013, 11:46 AM
#3000
looking into maybe a nexus card like bill if i decide on next year.