43LikesDissecting buggies and their performance.
07-07-2018, 05:13 AM
#61
Thanks for the kind words Ricardo.
All good advise and for example you could leave the rear alone and make the front end roll more than the rear but then the balance would be further compromised,that's why tlr began with a clean sheet design with the X because whoever design it made the front end have less grip in hopes of making it better than before, of course you want all the grip you can have and the results show the car isn't great.
This year's a world championship year, will be interesting to see how teams prepare themselves!
All good advise and for example you could leave the rear alone and make the front end roll more than the rear but then the balance would be further compromised,that's why tlr began with a clean sheet design with the X because whoever design it made the front end have less grip in hopes of making it better than before, of course you want all the grip you can have and the results show the car isn't great.
This year's a world championship year, will be interesting to see how teams prepare themselves!
07-07-2018, 01:04 PM
#62
Tech Adept
The benchmark is
mugen: aggressive, over steery, loose rear end and not stable.
Kyosho: under steery, stable , mostly driven on power, a lot of rear grip.
Finally buy what you like and what you feel comfortable with , go to your local track and ask around and try someone’s else car that’s the only real way to find what fits you.
07-07-2018, 02:19 PM
#63
Though and expected question.
I lack experience with the newer x-ray, the others I talk with pro drivers or own/owned them. If it says something I have the first JQ car and the BE, each TKI except the first and a couple of x-ray xb9'13. The closest to the TLR 2.0 would be the x-ray,it has a huge tuning range I would say close to the MP9 so you could make it aggressive or more stable with the suspension block pills or the rear arm length. Problem is you can't get it anymore but the new x-ray uses the xb9 rear end with little changes to be a spiritual successor of the MBX6,which was stable as a MP9 and as aggressive as the TLR, miss that car...but my first version JQ is that way now so I got that going for me.
I'm going to lump the other c hub cars together,serpent hb and the JQ. All similar in appearance but great Ackerman and upper arm configuration differences. The JQ is very stable by using the arms parallel with each others which offers a way softer and compliant drive. The other two have more upper arm angle so it binds the arms more because more force go through them instead of only the shocks.
Then the MP9 which stock has very angled short links. It is more stable but by severely compromising shock setup which in turn needs more ride height and still the car slaps the chassis too much. With the help of drivers around the world I created a setup which makes it closer to a BE in stability while loosing nothing in other departments. It's on the mp9 thread wiki, it's the ht-lr setup.
Who knows maybe the best car for me is the serpent,it looks like the least compromised design and it ticks the right boxes, I even asked serpent for one but they didn't replied.
So my best car at the moment would be the...a mp9/srx8/d81x tie. Maybe even throw a x-ray if you can get parts easily for them.
I lack experience with the newer x-ray, the others I talk with pro drivers or own/owned them. If it says something I have the first JQ car and the BE, each TKI except the first and a couple of x-ray xb9'13. The closest to the TLR 2.0 would be the x-ray,it has a huge tuning range I would say close to the MP9 so you could make it aggressive or more stable with the suspension block pills or the rear arm length. Problem is you can't get it anymore but the new x-ray uses the xb9 rear end with little changes to be a spiritual successor of the MBX6,which was stable as a MP9 and as aggressive as the TLR, miss that car...but my first version JQ is that way now so I got that going for me.
I'm going to lump the other c hub cars together,serpent hb and the JQ. All similar in appearance but great Ackerman and upper arm configuration differences. The JQ is very stable by using the arms parallel with each others which offers a way softer and compliant drive. The other two have more upper arm angle so it binds the arms more because more force go through them instead of only the shocks.
Then the MP9 which stock has very angled short links. It is more stable but by severely compromising shock setup which in turn needs more ride height and still the car slaps the chassis too much. With the help of drivers around the world I created a setup which makes it closer to a BE in stability while loosing nothing in other departments. It's on the mp9 thread wiki, it's the ht-lr setup.
Who knows maybe the best car for me is the serpent,it looks like the least compromised design and it ticks the right boxes, I even asked serpent for one but they didn't replied.
So my best car at the moment would be the...a mp9/srx8/d81x tie. Maybe even throw a x-ray if you can get parts easily for them.
07-07-2018, 02:27 PM
#64
Ricardo you nailed it again,perfect example and correct explanation.
Let me just add that yes the cars have enormous tuning variations but all of them have to compromise somewhere because of design choices. That's why the TLR and the mbx7 style cars have less rear traction than cars with narrow pivot rear end. It's like a signature handling trait that can be minimised but not erased.
Let me just add that yes the cars have enormous tuning variations but all of them have to compromise somewhere because of design choices. That's why the TLR and the mbx7 style cars have less rear traction than cars with narrow pivot rear end. It's like a signature handling trait that can be minimised but not erased.
07-07-2018, 02:39 PM
#65
Suspended
Though and expected question.
I lack experience with the newer x-ray, the others I talk with pro drivers or own/owned them. If it says something I have the first JQ car and the BE, each TKI except the first and a couple of x-ray xb9'13. The closest to the TLR 2.0 would be the x-ray,it has a huge tuning range I would say close to the MP9 so you could make it aggressive or more stable with the suspension block pills or the rear arm length. Problem is you can't get it anymore but the new x-ray uses the xb9 rear end with little changes to be a spiritual successor of the MBX6,which was stable as a MP9 and as aggressive as the TLR, miss that car...but my first version JQ is that way now so I got that going for me.
I'm going to lump the other c hub cars together,serpent hb and the JQ. All similar in appearance but great Ackerman and upper arm configuration differences. The JQ is very stable by using the arms parallel with each others which offers a way softer and compliant drive. The other two have more upper arm angle so it binds the arms more because more force go through them instead of only the shocks.
Then the MP9 which stock has very angled short links. It is more stable but by severely compromising shock setup which in turn needs more ride height and still the car slaps the chassis too much. With the help of drivers around the world I created a setup which makes it closer to a BE in stability while loosing nothing in other departments. It's on the mp9 thread wiki, it's the ht-lr setup.
Who knows maybe the best car for me is the serpent,it looks like the least compromised design and it ticks the right boxes, I even asked serpent for one but they didn't replied.
So my best car at the moment would be the...a mp9/srx8/d81x tie. Maybe even throw a x-ray if you can get parts easily for them.
I lack experience with the newer x-ray, the others I talk with pro drivers or own/owned them. If it says something I have the first JQ car and the BE, each TKI except the first and a couple of x-ray xb9'13. The closest to the TLR 2.0 would be the x-ray,it has a huge tuning range I would say close to the MP9 so you could make it aggressive or more stable with the suspension block pills or the rear arm length. Problem is you can't get it anymore but the new x-ray uses the xb9 rear end with little changes to be a spiritual successor of the MBX6,which was stable as a MP9 and as aggressive as the TLR, miss that car...but my first version JQ is that way now so I got that going for me.
I'm going to lump the other c hub cars together,serpent hb and the JQ. All similar in appearance but great Ackerman and upper arm configuration differences. The JQ is very stable by using the arms parallel with each others which offers a way softer and compliant drive. The other two have more upper arm angle so it binds the arms more because more force go through them instead of only the shocks.
Then the MP9 which stock has very angled short links. It is more stable but by severely compromising shock setup which in turn needs more ride height and still the car slaps the chassis too much. With the help of drivers around the world I created a setup which makes it closer to a BE in stability while loosing nothing in other departments. It's on the mp9 thread wiki, it's the ht-lr setup.
Who knows maybe the best car for me is the serpent,it looks like the least compromised design and it ticks the right boxes, I even asked serpent for one but they didn't replied.
So my best car at the moment would be the...a mp9/srx8/d81x tie. Maybe even throw a x-ray if you can get parts easily for them.
your now comparing a stand alone basically one car company to Kyosho - one of the most successful manufacturers ever. Something comparable is ONE person is behind the 1/8 buggy basically. kanai vs JQ, we all know kanai does his own thing and JQ has alot of social media action(good banter who offends snowflakes) but you can actually message him personally.
07-07-2018, 03:07 PM
#66
Yeah totally you can pitch both against each other trading punches. That's the beauty of off road dirt racing, grip is the ultimate goal and there's so much you can do.
The white edition had less caster and wrong driveshaft angle,which was its true fault. I just think JQ went overboard with the gearbox shims when he could possibly use different pills in the rear hubs and AB plates pills in the front to have less driveshaft angles. Then there's the front upper arm length that is too short for the amount of caster it runs.
The white edition had less caster and wrong driveshaft angle,which was its true fault. I just think JQ went overboard with the gearbox shims when he could possibly use different pills in the rear hubs and AB plates pills in the front to have less driveshaft angles. Then there's the front upper arm length that is too short for the amount of caster it runs.
07-07-2018, 11:32 PM
#68
Tech Adept
Though and expected question.
I lack experience with the newer x-ray, the others I talk with pro drivers or own/owned them. If it says something I have the first JQ car and the BE, each TKI except the first and a couple of x-ray xb9'13. The closest to the TLR 2.0 would be the x-ray,it has a huge tuning range I would say close to the MP9 so you could make it aggressive or more stable with the suspension block pills or the rear arm length. Problem is you can't get it anymore but the new x-ray uses the xb9 rear end with little changes to be a spiritual successor of the MBX6,which was stable as a MP9 and as aggressive as the TLR, miss that car...but my first version JQ is that way now so I got that going for me.
I'm going to lump the other c hub cars together,serpent hb and the JQ. All similar in appearance but great Ackerman and upper arm configuration differences. The JQ is very stable by using the arms parallel with each others which offers a way softer and compliant drive. The other two have more upper arm angle so it binds the arms more because more force go through them instead of only the shocks.
Then the MP9 which stock has very angled short links. It is more stable but by severely compromising shock setup which in turn needs more ride height and still the car slaps the chassis too much. With the help of drivers around the world I created a setup which makes it closer to a BE in stability while loosing nothing in other departments. It's on the mp9 thread wiki, it's the ht-lr setup.
Who knows maybe the best car for me is the serpent,it looks like the least compromised design and it ticks the right boxes, I even asked serpent for one but they didn't replied.
So my best car at the moment would be the...a mp9/srx8/d81x tie. Maybe even throw a x-ray if you can get parts easily for them.
I lack experience with the newer x-ray, the others I talk with pro drivers or own/owned them. If it says something I have the first JQ car and the BE, each TKI except the first and a couple of x-ray xb9'13. The closest to the TLR 2.0 would be the x-ray,it has a huge tuning range I would say close to the MP9 so you could make it aggressive or more stable with the suspension block pills or the rear arm length. Problem is you can't get it anymore but the new x-ray uses the xb9 rear end with little changes to be a spiritual successor of the MBX6,which was stable as a MP9 and as aggressive as the TLR, miss that car...but my first version JQ is that way now so I got that going for me.
I'm going to lump the other c hub cars together,serpent hb and the JQ. All similar in appearance but great Ackerman and upper arm configuration differences. The JQ is very stable by using the arms parallel with each others which offers a way softer and compliant drive. The other two have more upper arm angle so it binds the arms more because more force go through them instead of only the shocks.
Then the MP9 which stock has very angled short links. It is more stable but by severely compromising shock setup which in turn needs more ride height and still the car slaps the chassis too much. With the help of drivers around the world I created a setup which makes it closer to a BE in stability while loosing nothing in other departments. It's on the mp9 thread wiki, it's the ht-lr setup.
Who knows maybe the best car for me is the serpent,it looks like the least compromised design and it ticks the right boxes, I even asked serpent for one but they didn't replied.
So my best car at the moment would be the...a mp9/srx8/d81x tie. Maybe even throw a x-ray if you can get parts easily for them.
Ricardo you nailed it again,perfect example and correct explanation.
Let me just add that yes the cars have enormous tuning variations but all of them have to compromise somewhere because of design choices. That's why the TLR and the mbx7 style cars have less rear traction than cars with narrow pivot rear end. It's like a signature handling trait that can be minimised but not erased.
Let me just add that yes the cars have enormous tuning variations but all of them have to compromise somewhere because of design choices. That's why the TLR and the mbx7 style cars have less rear traction than cars with narrow pivot rear end. It's like a signature handling trait that can be minimised but not erased.
@30tooth if you were to build your own buggy taking parts from each car what would they be ?
07-08-2018, 07:59 AM
#69
About the wide pivot rear arms, the Mugen,TLR and possibly the AE and x-ray are almost same length front and rear a 1 or 2mm difference so not bad to fix with narrower pivots and wider hubs. There was a friend of mine that did that to his mbx7 but it I think the rear shock angle was too upright and the rear was too stiff in bumps. *edit* and also the roll bar mounts on the arms were then on the wrong spot, which was inwards so he had to develop the entire rear end setup on his own...
About the x-ray, the design guys tend to waste time trying everything instead of picking the best given the compromises. There's a rumour of them going back to c hub like the Kyosho... At this point I hope they stick with this design for a long time.
My perfect car would be a slightly modified mp9 or d81x or srx8 because I know that base is solid only a front end fix would be required. The mp9 and the serpent seem to get it mostly right.
About the x-ray, the design guys tend to waste time trying everything instead of picking the best given the compromises. There's a rumour of them going back to c hub like the Kyosho... At this point I hope they stick with this design for a long time.
My perfect car would be a slightly modified mp9 or d81x or srx8 because I know that base is solid only a front end fix would be required. The mp9 and the serpent seem to get it mostly right.
Last edited by 30Tooth; 07-09-2018 at 03:53 AM.
07-08-2018, 01:57 PM
#70
Tech Adept
About the wide pivot rear arms, the Mugen,TLR and possibly the AE and x-ray are almost same length front and rear a 1 or 2mm difference so not bad to fix with narrower pivots and wider hubs. There was a friend of mine that did that to his mbx7 but it I think the rear shock angle was too upright and the rear was too stiff in bumps.
About the x-ray, the design guys tend to waste time trying everything instead of picking the best given the compromises. There's a rumour of them going back to c hub like the Kyosho... At this point I hope they stick with this design for a long time.
My perfect car would be a slightly modified mp9 or d81x or srx8 because I know that base is solid only a front end fix would be required. The mp9 and the serpent seem to get it mostly right.
About the x-ray, the design guys tend to waste time trying everything instead of picking the best given the compromises. There's a rumour of them going back to c hub like the Kyosho... At this point I hope they stick with this design for a long time.
My perfect car would be a slightly modified mp9 or d81x or srx8 because I know that base is solid only a front end fix would be required. The mp9 and the serpent seem to get it mostly right.
talking about the rumour , I did hear the same and I thought that the only way they would go back to the C-hub car was if tessmann didnt get use to the PBS( pivot ball suspension ) but after watching tessmann at the national I think he’s got the car really dialed , I do feel he was faster and more comfortable with the HB (probably do to how the HB has less suspension bind and lower roll center ).
I would agree with the serpent it ticks all the right boxes, it’s a shame serpent doesn’t have a top driver ( top 25 or constant A mainer) to put it to the test. That car setup around low rollers like THE CAR BE would have really nice handling.
07-08-2018, 02:29 PM
#71
Suspended
something I’ve notice after watching many many races is that Davide ongaro looks completely different compare to all other AE or mugens ( short arm cars ) his car looks more stuck on the rear I don’t know if it is his driving style or actual setup that makes it look so stuck to the ground
talking about the rumour , I did hear the same and I thought that the only way they would go back to the C-hub car was if tessmann didnt get use to the PBS( pivot ball suspension ) but after watching tessmann at the national I think he’s got the car really dialed , I do feel he was faster and more comfortable with the HB (probably do to how the HB has less suspension bind and lower roll center ).
I would agree with the serpent it ticks all the right boxes, it’s a shame serpent doesn’t have a top driver ( top 25 or constant A mainer) to put it to the test. That car setup around low rollers like THE CAR BE would have really nice handling.
talking about the rumour , I did hear the same and I thought that the only way they would go back to the C-hub car was if tessmann didnt get use to the PBS( pivot ball suspension ) but after watching tessmann at the national I think he’s got the car really dialed , I do feel he was faster and more comfortable with the HB (probably do to how the HB has less suspension bind and lower roll center ).
I would agree with the serpent it ticks all the right boxes, it’s a shame serpent doesn’t have a top driver ( top 25 or constant A mainer) to put it to the test. That car setup around low rollers like THE CAR BE would have really nice handling.
Cody king is driving the Serpent but hes got other life issues going on(a real shame as he cared more and put in the time, much like truhe) he could be right at the top all the time.
07-08-2018, 03:38 PM
#72
Tech Adept
I too really like the Serpent but its got funny designs, such as the sway bar mount etc. Im driving tki3/4s and going to buy a BE at some point/or next version to test and compare the same setup changes(also what about kyosho shocks on the JQ?) the whole one person design, kanai and JQ really has me hooked, as they dont just copy (looking at AE etc here) they just do what they want
Cody king is driving the Serpent but hes got other life issues going on(a real shame as he cared more and put in the time, much like truhe) he could be right at the top all the time.
Cody king is driving the Serpent but hes got other life issues going on(a real shame as he cared more and put in the time, much like truhe) he could be right at the top all the time.
Talking about the K-shocks on a JQ is not really worth the trouble the JQ BE already has really good suspension geometry that makes any shock work well. above @30tooth explain exactly why.
yup real shame for King hope to see him back in full force soon.
07-08-2018, 08:41 PM
#73
I too really like the Serpent but its got funny designs, such as the sway bar mount etc. Im driving tki3/4s and going to buy a BE at some point/or next version to test and compare the same setup changes(also what about kyosho shocks on the JQ?) the whole one person design, kanai and JQ really has me hooked, as they dont just copy (looking at AE etc here) they just do what they want
07-09-2018, 03:57 AM
#74
i would say kanai has done what he wanted and believe worked with the TKI series of cars on the other hand JQ has done what the people ask him for and in the process his car has become really good and getting better , he just needs a really fast pro to run the car for him to really show the potential the car has.
Talking about the K-shocks on a JQ is not really worth the trouble the JQ BE already has really good suspension geometry that makes any shock work well. above @30tooth explain exactly why.
yup real shame for King hope to see him back in full force soon.
Wear wise the old JQ shocks are better than the Kyosho shocks, 100% sure of that. There isn't anything that the Kyosho shocks do that the JQ ones don't do as good.
Last edited by 30Tooth; 11-06-2018 at 09:27 AM.
07-09-2018, 01:45 PM
#75
Tech Adept
Kanai has that formula down, he only deviates a small amount because of fear of losing focus. JQ on the other hand was 90% right on the first THE Car and tried another completely different approach and stuck to it. It's now starting to proving itself.
Wear wise the JQ shocks are better than the Kyosho shocks, 100% sure of that. There isn't anything that the Kyosho shocks do that the JQ ones don't do as good.
Wear wise the JQ shocks are better than the Kyosho shocks, 100% sure of that. There isn't anything that the Kyosho shocks do that the JQ ones don't do as good.
@30tooth what’s the reasoning behind HB changing the rear shock tower on the D816v2( more lay-down shocks) and not sticking with the D815v2 shock tower? My take on it is that the older shock tower didn’t go well with David’s driving style and setup( higher roll center , more camber gain and agressive driving style ) and by the looks of it this new shock tower doesn’t go well with the lower roll center setups like tessmann’s