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Dissecting buggies and their performance.

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Dissecting buggies and their performance.

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Old 07-07-2018, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
Thanks for the kind words Ricardo.

All good advise and for example you could leave the rear alone and make the front end roll more than the rear but then the balance would be further compromised,that's why tlr began with a clean sheet design with the X because whoever design it made the front end have less grip in hopes of making it better than before, of course you want all the grip you can have and the results show the car isn't great.

This year's a world championship year, will be interesting to see how teams prepare themselves!
From all the buggy's you tested, which newer buggy would YOU pick? A while back, went from the odonnell buggy to the losi8 2.0 my lap times got much faster. The odonnell buggy seemed lazy and the losi 2.0 on edge. Looking for something in the middle
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Old 07-07-2018, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kaptain crash View Post
From all the buggy's you tested, which newer buggy would YOU pick? A while back, went from the odonnell buggy to the losi8 2.0 my lap times got much faster. The odonnell buggy seemed lazy and the losi 2.0 on edge. Looking for something in the middle
Todayís modern buggies are very capable of setting up to your driving style and make them behave how you want on track. the best example of this is when ty tessmann and David ronnefalk weíre both running the HB d8(15,16), they both were running the same car but their setups were very different so much so that they look like completely different cars on track , tessmannís cars look more stable , copying the track better and not wanting to flip over through sketchy sections. most of this things come from his setup were he runs low roll centers , very stand up shocks, very little camber , not too much rear toe and at times making the rear look loose ( most likely due to not running enough toe in and camber). On the other hand Davidís car looked completely opposite, his car look not so stable , often looking upset over bumps, at times it looked that it had too much rear grip and a lot of steering, overall a more reactive car most of this behaviors come from him running high roll centers , a lot more rear toe in , more rear camber and more angle rear shocks. So basically thereís not one specific car that will handle in one way everything is how you set it up. but there are some cars that have natural tensive to behave different. ( @30tooth please shed some light Iíve wrong )




The benchmark is

mugen: aggressive, over steery, loose rear end and not stable.

Kyosho: under steery, stable , mostly driven on power, a lot of rear grip.




Finally buy what you like and what you feel comfortable with , go to your local track and ask around and try someoneís else car thatís the only real way to find what fits you.

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Old 07-07-2018, 03:19 PM
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Though and expected question.

I lack experience with the newer x-ray, the others I talk with pro drivers or own/owned them. If it says something I have the first JQ car and the BE, each TKI except the first and a couple of x-ray xb9'13. The closest to the TLR 2.0 would be the x-ray,it has a huge tuning range I would say close to the MP9 so you could make it aggressive or more stable with the suspension block pills or the rear arm length. Problem is you can't get it anymore but the new x-ray uses the xb9 rear end with little changes to be a spiritual successor of the MBX6,which was stable as a MP9 and as aggressive as the TLR, miss that car...but my first version JQ is that way now so I got that going for me.

I'm going to lump the other c hub cars together,serpent hb and the JQ. All similar in appearance but great Ackerman and upper arm configuration differences. The JQ is very stable by using the arms parallel with each others which offers a way softer and compliant drive. The other two have more upper arm angle so it binds the arms more because more force go through them instead of only the shocks.
Then the MP9 which stock has very angled short links. It is more stable but by severely compromising shock setup which in turn needs more ride height and still the car slaps the chassis too much. With the help of drivers around the world I created a setup which makes it closer to a BE in stability while loosing nothing in other departments. It's on the mp9 thread wiki, it's the ht-lr setup.

Who knows maybe the best car for me is the serpent,it looks like the least compromised design and it ticks the right boxes, I even asked serpent for one but they didn't replied.

So my best car at the moment would be the...a mp9/srx8/d81x tie. Maybe even throw a x-ray if you can get parts easily for them.
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Old 07-07-2018, 03:27 PM
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Ricardo you nailed it again,perfect example and correct explanation.

Let me just add that yes the cars have enormous tuning variations but all of them have to compromise somewhere because of design choices. That's why the TLR and the mbx7 style cars have less rear traction than cars with narrow pivot rear end. It's like a signature handling trait that can be minimised but not erased.
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Old 07-07-2018, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
Though and expected question.

I lack experience with the newer x-ray, the others I talk with pro drivers or own/owned them. If it says something I have the first JQ car and the BE, each TKI except the first and a couple of x-ray xb9'13. The closest to the TLR 2.0 would be the x-ray,it has a huge tuning range I would say close to the MP9 so you could make it aggressive or more stable with the suspension block pills or the rear arm length. Problem is you can't get it anymore but the new x-ray uses the xb9 rear end with little changes to be a spiritual successor of the MBX6,which was stable as a MP9 and as aggressive as the TLR, miss that car...but my first version JQ is that way now so I got that going for me.

I'm going to lump the other c hub cars together,serpent hb and the JQ. All similar in appearance but great Ackerman and upper arm configuration differences. The JQ is very stable by using the arms parallel with each others which offers a way softer and compliant drive. The other two have more upper arm angle so it binds the arms more because more force go through them instead of only the shocks.
Then the MP9 which stock has very angled short links. It is more stable but by severely compromising shock setup which in turn needs more ride height and still the car slaps the chassis too much. With the help of drivers around the world I created a setup which makes it closer to a BE in stability while loosing nothing in other departments. It's on the mp9 thread wiki, it's the ht-lr setup.

Who knows maybe the best car for me is the serpent,it looks like the least compromised design and it ticks the right boxes, I even asked serpent for one but they didn't replied.

So my best car at the moment would be the...a mp9/srx8/d81x tie. Maybe even throw a x-ray if you can get parts easily for them.
This quote.. is the JQracing black edition quite possibly the best " works everywhere to a degree and beyond" car for most racers who are looking for something always in the ball park setup wise?

your now comparing a stand alone basically one car company to Kyosho - one of the most successful manufacturers ever. Something comparable is ONE person is behind the 1/8 buggy basically. kanai vs JQ, we all know kanai does his own thing and JQ has alot of social media action(good banter who offends snowflakes) but you can actually message him personally.


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Old 07-07-2018, 04:07 PM
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Yeah totally you can pitch both against each other trading punches. That's the beauty of off road dirt racing, grip is the ultimate goal and there's so much you can do.

The white edition had less caster and wrong driveshaft angle,which was its true fault. I just think JQ went overboard with the gearbox shims when he could possibly use different pills in the rear hubs and AB plates pills in the front to have less driveshaft angles. Then there's the front upper arm length that is too short for the amount of caster it runs.
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Old 07-07-2018, 08:32 PM
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Thanks....
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Old 07-08-2018, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
Though and expected question.

I lack experience with the newer x-ray, the others I talk with pro drivers or own/owned them. If it says something I have the first JQ car and the BE, each TKI except the first and a couple of x-ray xb9'13. The closest to the TLR 2.0 would be the x-ray,it has a huge tuning range I would say close to the MP9 so you could make it aggressive or more stable with the suspension block pills or the rear arm length. Problem is you can't get it anymore but the new x-ray uses the xb9 rear end with little changes to be a spiritual successor of the MBX6,which was stable as a MP9 and as aggressive as the TLR, miss that car...but my first version JQ is that way now so I got that going for me.

I'm going to lump the other c hub cars together,serpent hb and the JQ. All similar in appearance but great Ackerman and upper arm configuration differences. The JQ is very stable by using the arms parallel with each others which offers a way softer and compliant drive. The other two have more upper arm angle so it binds the arms more because more force go through them instead of only the shocks.
Then the MP9 which stock has very angled short links. It is more stable but by severely compromising shock setup which in turn needs more ride height and still the car slaps the chassis too much. With the help of drivers around the world I created a setup which makes it closer to a BE in stability while loosing nothing in other departments. It's on the mp9 thread wiki, it's the ht-lr setup.

Who knows maybe the best car for me is the serpent,it looks like the least compromised design and it ticks the right boxes, I even asked serpent for one but they didn't replied.

So my best car at the moment would be the...a mp9/srx8/d81x tie. Maybe even throw a x-ray if you can get parts easily for them.
do you feel that the xb9í13 has been one of the greater cars xray has release so far ? I personally feel they lost a lot of time on the Ď14 and Ď15 they should have stuck to the xb9 platform and develop it more like they have done with the xb8í16,17,18 and they would have a great platform and be miles head on the race ( punt intended).
Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
Ricardo you nailed it again,perfect example and correct explanation.

Let me just add that yes the cars have enormous tuning variations but all of them have to compromise somewhere because of design choices. That's why the TLR and the mbx7 style cars have less rear traction than cars with narrow pivot rear end. It's like a signature handling trait that can be minimised but not erased.
Minimized not erased thatís correct . Iíve notices this the only car running rear short lower arms is the mugen and AE , because TLR actually was the first to introduce the concept actually did away from them on the X , xray also did it on the xb8í17 how much longer will it take mugen and AE to ditch them in favor of long arms ?

@30tooth if you were to build your own buggy taking parts from each car what would they be ?
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Old 07-08-2018, 08:59 AM
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About the wide pivot rear arms, the Mugen,TLR and possibly the AE and x-ray are almost same length front and rear a 1 or 2mm difference so not bad to fix with narrower pivots and wider hubs. There was a friend of mine that did that to his mbx7 but it I think the rear shock angle was too upright and the rear was too stiff in bumps. *edit* and also the roll bar mounts on the arms were then on the wrong spot, which was inwards so he had to develop the entire rear end setup on his own...

About the x-ray, the design guys tend to waste time trying everything instead of picking the best given the compromises. There's a rumour of them going back to c hub like the Kyosho... At this point I hope they stick with this design for a long time.

My perfect car would be a slightly modified mp9 or d81x or srx8 because I know that base is solid only a front end fix would be required. The mp9 and the serpent seem to get it mostly right.

Last edited by 30Tooth; 07-09-2018 at 04:53 AM.
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Old 07-08-2018, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
About the wide pivot rear arms, the Mugen,TLR and possibly the AE and x-ray are almost same length front and rear a 1 or 2mm difference so not bad to fix with narrower pivots and wider hubs. There was a friend of mine that did that to his mbx7 but it I think the rear shock angle was too upright and the rear was too stiff in bumps.

About the x-ray, the design guys tend to waste time trying everything instead of picking the best given the compromises. There's a rumour of them going back to c hub like the Kyosho... At this point I hope they stick with this design for a long time.

My perfect car would be a slightly modified mp9 or d81x or srx8 because I know that base is solid only a front end fix would be required. The mp9 and the serpent seem to get it mostly right.
something Iíve notice after watching many many races is that Davide ongaro looks completely different compare to all other AE or mugens ( short arm cars ) his car looks more stuck on the rear I donít know if it is his driving style or actual setup that makes it look so stuck to the ground

talking about the rumour , I did hear the same and I thought that the only way they would go back to the C-hub car was if tessmann didnt get use to the PBS( pivot ball suspension ) but after watching tessmann at the national I think heís got the car really dialed , I do feel he was faster and more comfortable with the HB (probably do to how the HB has less suspension bind and lower roll center ).

I would agree with the serpent it ticks all the right boxes, itís a shame serpent doesnít have a top driver ( top 25 or constant A mainer) to put it to the test. That car setup around low rollers like THE CAR BE would have really nice handling.
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Old 07-08-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricardo_d99 View Post
something I’ve notice after watching many many races is that Davide ongaro looks completely different compare to all other AE or mugens ( short arm cars ) his car looks more stuck on the rear I don’t know if it is his driving style or actual setup that makes it look so stuck to the ground

talking about the rumour , I did hear the same and I thought that the only way they would go back to the C-hub car was if tessmann didnt get use to the PBS( pivot ball suspension ) but after watching tessmann at the national I think he’s got the car really dialed , I do feel he was faster and more comfortable with the HB (probably do to how the HB has less suspension bind and lower roll center ).

I would agree with the serpent it ticks all the right boxes, it’s a shame serpent doesn’t have a top driver ( top 25 or constant A mainer) to put it to the test. That car setup around low rollers like THE CAR BE would have really nice handling.

I too really like the Serpent but its got funny designs, such as the sway bar mount etc. Im driving tki3/4s and going to buy a BE at some point/or next version to test and compare the same setup changes(also what about kyosho shocks on the JQ?) the whole one person design, kanai and JQ really has me hooked, as they dont just copy (looking at AE etc here) they just do what they want

Cody king is driving the Serpent but hes got other life issues going on(a real shame as he cared more and put in the time, much like truhe) he could be right at the top all the time.
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Old 07-08-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by iplaygames View Post
I too really like the Serpent but its got funny designs, such as the sway bar mount etc. Im driving tki3/4s and going to buy a BE at some point/or next version to test and compare the same setup changes(also what about kyosho shocks on the JQ?) the whole one person design, kanai and JQ really has me hooked, as they dont just copy (looking at AE etc here) they just do what they want

Cody king is driving the Serpent but hes got other life issues going on(a real shame as he cared more and put in the time, much like truhe) he could be right at the top all the time.
i would say kanai has done what he wanted and believe worked with the TKI series of cars on the other hand JQ has done what the people ask him for and in the process his car has become really good and getting better , he just needs a really fast pro to run the car for him to really show the potential the car has.

Talking about the K-shocks on a JQ is not really worth the trouble the JQ BE already has really good suspension geometry that makes any shock work well. above @30tooth explain exactly why.

yup real shame for King hope to see him back in full force soon.
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Old 07-08-2018, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by iplaygames View Post
I too really like the Serpent but its got funny designs, such as the sway bar mount etc. Im driving tki3/4s and going to buy a BE at some point/or next version to test and compare the same setup changes(also what about kyosho shocks on the JQ?) the whole one person design, kanai and JQ really has me hooked, as they dont just copy (looking at AE etc here) they just do what they want
We've swapped shocks but it's a very small handling difference. The JQ shocks are really good.
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricardo_d99 View Post

i would say kanai has done what he wanted and believe worked with the TKI series of cars on the other hand JQ has done what the people ask him for and in the process his car has become really good and getting better , he just needs a really fast pro to run the car for him to really show the potential the car has.

Talking about the K-shocks on a JQ is not really worth the trouble the JQ BE already has really good suspension geometry that makes any shock work well. above @30tooth explain exactly why.

yup real shame for King hope to see him back in full force soon.
Kanai has that formula down, he only deviates a small amount because of fear of losing focus. JQ on the other hand was 90% right on the first THE Car and copied random stuff together to design the sequent cars. Quality has gone down too.

Wear wise the old JQ shocks are better than the Kyosho shocks, 100% sure of that. There isn't anything that the Kyosho shocks do that the JQ ones don't do as good.

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Old 07-09-2018, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
Kanai has that formula down, he only deviates a small amount because of fear of losing focus. JQ on the other hand was 90% right on the first THE Car and tried another completely different approach and stuck to it. It's now starting to proving itself.

Wear wise the JQ shocks are better than the Kyosho shocks, 100% sure of that. There isn't anything that the Kyosho shocks do that the JQ ones don't do as good.
agree he kinda did what xray was doing, interns of not sticking to a platform and develop it to the fullest before giving up on it.

@30tooth whatís the reasoning behind HB changing the rear shock tower on the D816v2( more lay-down shocks) and not sticking with the D815v2 shock tower? My take on it is that the older shock tower didnít go well with Davidís driving style and setup( higher roll center , more camber gain and agressive driving style ) and by the looks of it this new shock tower doesnít go well with the lower roll center setups like tessmannís
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