Thoughts on classes with no timing or boost
10-31-2010, 01:43 PM
#76
People have been cheating in stock class since day 1.......cranked comms, reshrinked batteries, illegal option parts, etc etc......this nothing new.
Later EddieO
Later EddieO
10-31-2010, 01:59 PM
#78
I am talking about touring car. When you look at that class, no runs the T3R, they get the T3. VTA is popular and you can run a TC3,4 or 5 and be competive. But if you run 17.5, what chassis do most get a T3, TC6, TC5, 416, Cyclone. Xray drops a new version of the T2/T3 every year. 360-500 for a rollor no body or even wheels. A RC8B buggy prebuilt with body and wheels can be had for 470 at Amain vs T3 no body or wheels, needs to be built for 434. Look at parts cost Xray charge 7 bucks per hub, D8 Hub 10 a pair. Losi 8B buggy RTR 629 and its competive out of the box. So why can't we get something similar for touring? I also don't all the setup tools for offroad, like I need for touring.
The point is---your comparing an "entry" level rule limited off road class to an "open" modified budget to go "EXPERT" on-road racing. There's PLENTY of off-road cars out there that cost over $1000 to race competitively with---but that's NOT an accurate comparison now is it!!??
10-31-2010, 03:41 PM
#79
"Excellent" a New Thread to Vent On!
With all of the Very Strong Points made by TallyRC, Harry Leach, Eddie"O",rx7ttlm, et al:
It seems to me, you have those who "Embrace and Welcome Technology", and you have what I will call "The Haters of Technology"! (devisive enough 4 this discussion?).
I'd love to say that, "Whatever side of this Issue you're on, choose your preference", and Go Have Fun. However, That's not an option everywhere. When locally, there was the choice of 17.5 Sedan, Stock/Sportsman or Superstock/Expert, the entries were either split down the middle or usually more would opt for the "Faster Class"! Near the end of last Springs Carpet Season, our Club tried to offer Sportsman TC as an option, (I think to see how many would be willing to "Slow Down", and to set the Stage for Intro of Open Mod Sedan). Well, there were "No Takers", or not enough for a seperate Class.
Not to be Denied for this Season, our Club President, (OK the'res a Comp/Rules Commitee to "Share the Glory" with), allows No Option between Stock TC/no timing and Open Mod TC. This caused me to Park my TC's.
To make matters worse, (I'm left to draw my own conclusions since nobody responsible for these "New Rules" is willing to "Explain Them Publicy"), WGT along w/12th Scale, required "Dumbing Down", leaving the "Door Open" for Open Mod 12th Scale. With WGT being my preference, this leaves me "Out in the Cold" and TZII, 140 miles South, as my only Track option.
As there are many here, (locally) that agree with me, so far, I'm the only One that's "Voting w/my Feet" and will be no part of this. I've been "Flamed On", "Dissed", attempted intimedation via Private Message over all that has happened in the last couple of months, YET, I still love this Hobby!
So, after all the "Machinations" have run their course, the "Dust" finally "Settles", (and I hope it all does soon), I can only wonder what the "Next Big Hit" will be to this Hobby/Sport?
It seems to me, you have those who "Embrace and Welcome Technology", and you have what I will call "The Haters of Technology"! (devisive enough 4 this discussion?).
I'd love to say that, "Whatever side of this Issue you're on, choose your preference", and Go Have Fun. However, That's not an option everywhere. When locally, there was the choice of 17.5 Sedan, Stock/Sportsman or Superstock/Expert, the entries were either split down the middle or usually more would opt for the "Faster Class"! Near the end of last Springs Carpet Season, our Club tried to offer Sportsman TC as an option, (I think to see how many would be willing to "Slow Down", and to set the Stage for Intro of Open Mod Sedan). Well, there were "No Takers", or not enough for a seperate Class.
Not to be Denied for this Season, our Club President, (OK the'res a Comp/Rules Commitee to "Share the Glory" with), allows No Option between Stock TC/no timing and Open Mod TC. This caused me to Park my TC's.
To make matters worse, (I'm left to draw my own conclusions since nobody responsible for these "New Rules" is willing to "Explain Them Publicy"), WGT along w/12th Scale, required "Dumbing Down", leaving the "Door Open" for Open Mod 12th Scale. With WGT being my preference, this leaves me "Out in the Cold" and TZII, 140 miles South, as my only Track option.
As there are many here, (locally) that agree with me, so far, I'm the only One that's "Voting w/my Feet" and will be no part of this. I've been "Flamed On", "Dissed", attempted intimedation via Private Message over all that has happened in the last couple of months, YET, I still love this Hobby!
So, after all the "Machinations" have run their course, the "Dust" finally "Settles", (and I hope it all does soon), I can only wonder what the "Next Big Hit" will be to this Hobby/Sport?
Last edited by el salvador; 10-31-2010 at 03:57 PM.
10-31-2010, 05:00 PM
#80
You guys are missing Eddies point. IT "can" be done so what's the point of trying to police it.
Technology is here , like it or hate it it's your choice. The fast guys will always be fast.
Like I said, you either limit the power source, or you limit the source using the power. Change the motor design/wind/size or change the battery.
I've never seen so much interest in limiting technology for any hobby. Tuning the esc now is the same skill motor tunes like Eddie and I did back in the days. It's just cheaper and easier to do now.
Trying to get the esc manufacturers to share info about how we write our code or other info is not going to happen. Current there is nobody in ROAR that has enough technical knowledge to police this properly. Dodge will not show Ford or Chevy how to make a dragster engine anytime soon.
Think harder....
Technology is here , like it or hate it it's your choice. The fast guys will always be fast.
Like I said, you either limit the power source, or you limit the source using the power. Change the motor design/wind/size or change the battery.
I've never seen so much interest in limiting technology for any hobby. Tuning the esc now is the same skill motor tunes like Eddie and I did back in the days. It's just cheaper and easier to do now.
Trying to get the esc manufacturers to share info about how we write our code or other info is not going to happen. Current there is nobody in ROAR that has enough technical knowledge to police this properly. Dodge will not show Ford or Chevy how to make a dragster engine anytime soon.
Think harder....
10-31-2010, 05:07 PM
#81
strange how folks dont grasp concept that if u cant get the car around the track faster than the next guy. rules, boost, chassis flavor of the mth etc doesnt matter.
spec is the real dirty 4letter 's' word. people think it fixes everything (no pun) b/c it slow cars down and thats fine. but then they wonder why they burn motors up runnin em hard because well....well they seem to not know citing that they put the same gear ratio on as the fast guy. well if he can hold a line and u cant, his motor wont work as hard or pull as many amps slidin around and hittin stuff. thus his is fine urs is burnt and folks dont like that, get mad, leave hobby, accuse cheatin, or try to start the 'next' class b/c they hope they can win.
more of us need to recognize the fact that we pay 15-20bux and are not even on track for a total of 30min the entire day....so what makes it worth it? hangin out with a ton of ur buds (or just u and ur dad if u will), having fun, playing with toy cars and really battlin urself to see what u can do.
such a hard concept, but its sad how we let our egos, our manhood (or what george carlin called 'dick fear'), and threads like this hurt the hobby with every bit of grit and distaste that created when someone doesnt like what others say and dont know how to interpret it in this 2D method of communication.
R
PS-winning doesnt really feel different. might a lil for 1st few min, but by the time you drive home if you really think bout it-you quip to yourself 'wow this doesnt feel different' still got that 1-2hr drive home and work 2mrw. but it was fun. well you can run 9th and have fun. thats better than winning but you hit your friend in doin so or in the 'next' class with only 3 entries. right?
PSS-i think these younger 'entitled generation' kids sadly need to realize or be told that not everyone is a winner. you dont get a trophy for just buying the car, and still they should all be handed a win just to show em that it doesnt really feel different.
Did you have fun this wkend?
spec is the real dirty 4letter 's' word. people think it fixes everything (no pun) b/c it slow cars down and thats fine. but then they wonder why they burn motors up runnin em hard because well....well they seem to not know citing that they put the same gear ratio on as the fast guy. well if he can hold a line and u cant, his motor wont work as hard or pull as many amps slidin around and hittin stuff. thus his is fine urs is burnt and folks dont like that, get mad, leave hobby, accuse cheatin, or try to start the 'next' class b/c they hope they can win.
more of us need to recognize the fact that we pay 15-20bux and are not even on track for a total of 30min the entire day....so what makes it worth it? hangin out with a ton of ur buds (or just u and ur dad if u will), having fun, playing with toy cars and really battlin urself to see what u can do.
such a hard concept, but its sad how we let our egos, our manhood (or what george carlin called 'dick fear'), and threads like this hurt the hobby with every bit of grit and distaste that created when someone doesnt like what others say and dont know how to interpret it in this 2D method of communication.
R
PS-winning doesnt really feel different. might a lil for 1st few min, but by the time you drive home if you really think bout it-you quip to yourself 'wow this doesnt feel different' still got that 1-2hr drive home and work 2mrw. but it was fun. well you can run 9th and have fun. thats better than winning but you hit your friend in doin so or in the 'next' class with only 3 entries. right?
PSS-i think these younger 'entitled generation' kids sadly need to realize or be told that not everyone is a winner. you dont get a trophy for just buying the car, and still they should all be handed a win just to show em that it doesnt really feel different.
Did you have fun this wkend?
10-31-2010, 06:13 PM
#82
A lot of fretting about who might be cheating in the sportsman class. I'll just have fun, race my toy cars, and not spend too much time worrying about who may or may not be bending the rules. We might all be better off concentrating on having fun and not worrying about people with lives so worthless they needs to cheat to win the sportsman level of a toy car races.
10-31-2010, 06:14 PM
#83
A lot of fretting about who might be cheating in the sportsman class. I'll just have fun, race my toy cars, and not spend too much time worrying about who may or may not be bending the rules. We might all be better off concentrating on having fun and not worrying about people with lives so worthless they needs to cheat to win the sportsman level of a toy car races.
10-31-2010, 06:19 PM
#84
A lot of fretting about who might be cheating in the sportsman class. I'll just have fun, race my toy cars, and not spend too much time worrying about who may or may not be bending the rules. We might all be better off concentrating on having fun and not worrying about people with lives so worthless they needs to cheat to win the sportsman level of a toy car races.
10-31-2010, 08:12 PM
#85
Tech Master
Don't know about you guys, but if there were known cheaters at our track, there would be some beat-downs dealt out. We're a pretty laid back club, but that's because we all respect the fact that we have a small racing community, and there is nowhere to go if you start dicking the rules to get ahead.....
10-31-2010, 08:43 PM
#86
These no timing rules I feel are just knee jerk reactions to the "technology race" we had 12-18 months ago between manufactures as they came up to speed on the new rules and technologies available in bruhless/lipo racing. Turning 180 at this point to start enforcing a no timing rule will in the end fail for most all the reasons mentioned previously.
We will probably never again see the huge steps of speed gains again in brush-less as we seen in the 2009-2010 carpet season. It will be slow incremental steps like it was in brushed days again. If slower is the goal then we should had worked with ROAR and the manufactures to use a different wind and rotor design, not make it hard to run races and limit the technology, especially when we don't have good ways to tech the technology.
The no timing rule is not tech-able easily and cost effectively. The hardware and software from all the manufactures is very hackable (some harder than others, but still hackable). Plus the fixed timing rule only only makes racing more expensive because the motor and battery that much more important.
Learning to tune a ESC & Brushless motor with the availability of timing mappings is easier than all the voodoo stuff we was doing to a 27t stock motor to make them run fast and it's cheaper.
We will probably never again see the huge steps of speed gains again in brush-less as we seen in the 2009-2010 carpet season. It will be slow incremental steps like it was in brushed days again. If slower is the goal then we should had worked with ROAR and the manufactures to use a different wind and rotor design, not make it hard to run races and limit the technology, especially when we don't have good ways to tech the technology.
The no timing rule is not tech-able easily and cost effectively. The hardware and software from all the manufactures is very hackable (some harder than others, but still hackable). Plus the fixed timing rule only only makes racing more expensive because the motor and battery that much more important.
Learning to tune a ESC & Brushless motor with the availability of timing mappings is easier than all the voodoo stuff we was doing to a 27t stock motor to make them run fast and it's cheaper.
10-31-2010, 08:53 PM
#87
Plus the fixed timing rule only only makes racing more expensive because the motor and battery that much more important.
Learning to tune a ESC & Brushless motor with the availability of timing mappings is easier than all the voodoo stuff we was doing to a 27t stock motor to make them run fast and it's cheaper.
Learning to tune a ESC & Brushless motor with the availability of timing mappings is easier than all the voodoo stuff we was doing to a 27t stock motor to make them run fast and it's cheaper.
10-31-2010, 08:56 PM
#88
10-31-2010, 09:00 PM
#89
I'd just like to say that no-timing in 17.5 sedan is kind'a warm and fuzzy. I like it. When I go to a new track, I can spend my time working on my car setup for the track rather than wasting time re-configuring my speedo.
Some of us (me in particular) are just sloooooow...at everything.
Some of us (me in particular) are just sloooooow...at everything.
10-31-2010, 09:17 PM
#90
You talk'n to me? "Master"
Shouldn't be a problem, if "Sloooooooooooow is your Preference"
And if No Timing is Not "Slooooooooooooow enough", then just disconnect your Battery!
As for me, "Bring on Technology", or atleast allow that option to those with that preference!
I'd just like to say that no-timing in 17.5 sedan is kind'a warm and fuzzy. I like it. When I go to a new track, I can spend my time working on my car setup for the track rather than wasting time re-configuring my speedo.
Some of us (me in particular) are just sloooooow...at everything.
Some of us (me in particular) are just sloooooow...at everything.
And if No Timing is Not "Slooooooooooooow enough", then just disconnect your Battery!
As for me, "Bring on Technology", or atleast allow that option to those with that preference!