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-   -   35 Amp Graded cells from SMC coming soon (https://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/42469-35-amp-graded-cells-smc-coming-soon.html)

Lonestar 06-14-2004 12:07 AM

Tempest 2000 : I agree entirely. Some people have already mentioned this "category-specific matching" issue on this thread before, and I think it makes a lot of sense. Let's even go one step further. How about recording how much current is drawn from the batts on a typical mod sedan track, and then replicating this sequence, in order to match the batteries with a load that's really realistic? Of course, you'd have to do the same for stock, 12th scale, and so on... but then it'd have some sense.

And without going to such complexity... why not matching at 40A already (can current turbomatchers pull that much?)? 40 is closer to the average draw for mod sedan at least. (3500mAh dumped in 5mn)

Later,
Paul


PS1:I think ProMax also described the situation pretty well... The RC business is a "push"-type business

PS2: EAMotorsports, after your cells have come back from Japan, can you please send them to Switzerland? ;)

Danny/SMC 06-14-2004 09:22 AM

I believe that its better to match at a higher rate that what is encountered on the track. Unfortunately todays matching equipment can only handle 35 amps so this is the max for now.

For stock and 12th scale and all other lower amp draw classes I thing it's still beneficial to use a higher rate.

When you say 28 amp this is only an average.

For those who think that using some type of variable discharge that would equal to what happens on the track would not be realistically possible because of all the different tracks and types of racing.


I would also like to point out a few things that I have read and disagree with. Some seem to imply that we always keep the best for the team and we only sell cells that are lower. That is simply not true. Basically we keep the top 1% at the most. Since we do a large volume the remaining 99% has some really great packs. We have also worked real hard with the major distributors and have a great stick pack program so this helps us get even more good cells since we need many stick pack cells.


For those who think that an extra .005 and extra 5 seconds of runtime makes a big difference let me tell you something that happened at the Snowbirds in Mod sedan. When I did the list of who was going to attend I forgot to put Ralph Burch on the list. So basicallt we gace out all the packs to they other drivers who I had on our list and then when Ralph showed up for packs we gave him packs out of the spare ones we had brought in case we forgot anyone or if someone had issues with a pack. So in the end Josh Cyrul probably had the best numbered packs and ended up in the B main while Ralph ended up winning.

Tempest2000 06-14-2004 09:34 AM

I understand it's an average and if you avg. a certain amount then it stands to reason that you will be above that at some point.

I was just curious on your thoughts.

Thanks

David Root 06-14-2004 02:30 PM

Been readin this all along
 
We can argue all we want and demand answers. What if we don't do it?

Remember panasonic 3000 HVs? Wasn't it SMC that said charge like a Nicad? Who the heck would have done that after reading "3mv per cell". SMC was right.

We can't sit still. Move forward. If it works great, if not, "eh" we still learned something. A couple of years from now we will all have the answer on 35 A discharge and will be discussing 40 A discharge or something else. If we don't do it in a couple of years we WILL NOT KNOW if it is better or not. I am glad some one is willing to invest in the future and that is what it really is.

JPHRacer 06-15-2004 01:42 AM


Originally posted by EAMotorsports
IF anyone wants to every borrow a pack of my "Team cells" then stop by and see me at the track...I will loan anyone a pack as long as they give me their honost opinion when they are done with em!!
Ya promise??? I'll be by your pits in Vegas. :)

This thread is crazy, you guys can have all the degrees that you want, with all your supposed experience, but the fact remains that, if the 35a thing, only killed the cells, then SMC, TQ, KCR, and all of the other matchers that have switched to the 35a matching, would be loosin lots of money in blown cells on the matchers.

SMC has a reputation, if it was a gimmock, once all you non team guys have their cells, it would become real evident real fast that its a joke. I dont think Danny would risk, his companies name, on such a thing, if he didnt think it wouldnt work.

Hell I dont even run for SMC, and I will say that when my old battery sponser swiched to 35a matching for the team packs, it was better on the track and on the T35. Thats good enough reason for anyone to start it. Hell, if he wanted to, he could have just kept it to himself and done it for only the team guys to get them better packs. But thats not the case. Todd Putnam had commented on other boards, about he when he was working for Trinity doing motors and cells for the team, one of the tricks was to re-cycle all of the packs at higher discharg rates to better weed though the cells to really find the good stuff.

But buy it or not, I bet $10 that within a year most all major matchers will all be using 35a for matching the cells.

Joel Lagace 06-15-2004 03:30 AM

Re: Been readin this all along
 

Originally posted by David Root
We can argue all we want and demand answers. What if we don't do it?

Remember panasonic 3000 HVs? Wasn't it SMC that said charge like a Nicad? Who the heck would have done that after reading "3mv per cell". SMC was right.

We can't sit still. Move forward. If it works great, if not, "eh" we still learned something. A couple of years from now we will all have the answer on 35 A discharge and will be discussing 40 A discharge or something else. If we don't do it in a couple of years we WILL NOT KNOW if it is better or not. I am glad some one is willing to invest in the future and that is what it really is.

WEll said.

Remember when overclocking CPU's was such a taboo subject? Remember it was only the techies that did it? Now years later Motherboard makers claim overclockablities on there latest boards. System builders sell them overclocked if the buyer wants it. All the worry years ago is now gone because power users pushed the limits. Now today joe packard bell and compaq all wanna overclock there systems.

Are battery matchers much like overclockers? They push the limits of cells to bring the best out of them for our racing pleasure? The matchers are the ones doing the R&D for us. So that we have a choise as to get yesterdays,todays or tomorrows matched packs. One great thing about Danny is that the track is always the place that ends up deciding whats hot or not. Remember when the sanyo3000s where out? They posted better numbers in some cases but sucked on the track. I personally remember guys smiling about how there sanyos stickers where much higher then my gps... it did not take long to see there packs on the for sale boards though! Where are those cells now? tested and now sold as sport packs.

Remember no one is forcing anyone to buy anything. So long as there is a market of racers though battery technology will keep growing

DaveW 06-15-2004 07:47 AM

I have read this thread, and find alot of attitude over nothing. Some would say 35A is a ploy to get you to buy "the cell of the month". Some would say 35A actually "gives you a better cell". Maybe we need to simplify this and ask one question. Why are companies like SMC in business? To make a dollar? Yes. But i am sure they have much more in mind. For a company like SMC to thrive longer than the "cell of the month" permits, they must continue to offer better products. If they didnt offer better products, then the market, or the buyer, would go elsewhere. SMC has one job, to give us,what they believe, is the best cells available. This is ALSO the job of every other matcher in the industry. Why would SMC, or any other matcher for that matter, offer something that would not be worthwhile? So they could lose their customer base from offering a crappy product? Its simple logic, that many of you have mixed with "data says this" and "data says that". YES heat IS an enemy for NiMh cells. So is a hammer, and a blow torch. But SMC does NOT offer flat, blue colored heated, "nuked" cells. They are offering a product they believe will help those that can actually make use of the extra given to them. If your lap times are not consistent within tenths of a second, you should be reading this for learning purposes only. Your reply just shows ignorance. How can you comment about something you have no idea on? Thats like talking about Bigfoot's ballsack as its your confidant, need i mention, hes not real? (nor are his balls...for the slow of mind)

Years ago i spoke with Korgae before he worked with Danny at SMC. At that time, i had started a small battery business. He helped me on the phone with what my cells should be and how to get them there. Then, Trinity introduced 30A numbers. And of course the industry had to follow. In my searchings i found that higher amperages DID weed the cells. It made sure that the cells put out higher voltages with less IR, even with the temperature increase. Print out the graphs (not just the damn labels) from your Turbomatcher, it tells the facts. I tested as high as 80A. This worked well on NiCd. Current testing on GP NiMh does not show that 80A is advantageous. 35A however does NOT notably degrade the cells when used for MATCHING purposes. Now. If you were to run the pack (any pack for that matter) repeatedly in a monster truck geared with the smallest spur/largest pinion on an Aveox 2 wind brushless system... you might have an issue. ( this might be a case where the person would NOT be making the best use of the pack) When used in the properly intended situation, 35A can, and will, help us determine what we are using on the track. If you are looking for a stick pack for your Tamiya Grasshopper... need not apply. If you want a bad ass set of cells, purchase, assemble, install... and grin.

By the way. I personally do not run SMC cells, i run Kinetix packs. I worry more about how my car handles on the track, than the numbers on my stickers. Im not the fastest guy, but i am consistent within tenths of a second per lap... the whole race. So dont hack on what i have typed, instead, just read, and let it be.


DISCLAIMER: If i have offended you, i apologi.... wait. Thats right... keep waiting for that apology. :cry:

- DaveW

ProMaX 06-15-2004 10:44 AM

Thanks Lonestar.
Saying
"The RC business is a "push"-type business"

You are quite right, I agree it is. As long as everyone realises there is some pushin' goin' on here. Both marketing driven and race driven. But the distinction between the two is never clear.



Would anyone argue that 30 amps is not better than 20 amps at accurately determining cell performance on the track? Would it then stand to reason that anything over 30 amps would be a better indicator than 30 since cars pull well over 30 amps? If we had the equipment to test at 40 or 50 we would do it because the closer you can get to on track performance, the better the batteries can be matched. Will anyone please respond to refute this rationale? We have been trying to make this point for 4 pages, but I don't believe anyone cares.
Jack I agree, logically it would follow that 40 or 50 amp matching should be better but the problem appears to be that the current 'off the shelf' matching equipment is not up to the job. Perhaps a company with custom built matching equipment might take advantage and get ahead of the competition?

I thought Orion already do something to simulate a race discharge?

"RDS:
Race Discharge Simulation is a testing process that simulates actual race conditions."

It's on the FAQ page, maybe I don't get it right? It says it's simulating a race discharge to weed out the weak cells. Isn't that what Jack is talking about? Isn't that better than 35A discharging? or 40A or 50A??

http://www.team-orion.ch/products/batteries.asp


p.s.
I think I'll stick with my 20A matched GP3300's they perform good enough for me!!

rayhuang 06-15-2004 11:15 AM


Originally posted by ProMaX
Thanks Lonestar.
Saying
p.s.
I think I'll stick with my 20A matched GP3300's they perform good enough for me!!

I guess the real point of the 35 amp stuff is Max performance!!! MAX PERFORMANCE!!! YOu can argue that a K&N filter is a waste of money too!! But I had one on my 5.0 in the day.
But I can tell you-while competing at the ROAR Nats, Snowbirds, Reedy ROC or the US Indoor Champs and your gunning for every second because its the difference between an entire Main-or even making the show-I want all the guns loaded with maximum ammunition!!! If the only difference between a 30 amp pack and a 35 amp pack is 2 to 3 seconds on a PERFECT run-I'll take it!!! Because in RC racing-many times all it takes is one run!!

I mean-am I the only one who owns "Race Packs" and "practice Packs" and buys two new packs for every BIg race?

R/C Anonymous 06-15-2004 11:20 AM

2-3 seconds is alot in a 5 minute race IMO

i usually run my old stuff at big races and do pretty good...maybe i should get new stuff b4 a big race then it could be the difference between 7th in the A and 1st?

Danny/SMC 06-15-2004 12:49 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Here is a picture of our new 35 amp packaging.

StephenSobottka 06-15-2004 12:55 PM

I like the new boxes, looks good danny.

UCHEATULOSE 06-15-2004 02:36 PM


Originally posted by DaveW
Thats like talking about Bigfoot's ballsack as its your confidant, need i mention, hes not real? (nor are his balls...for the slow of mind)


- DaveW



LOL for that you have a devoted reader! that rocked!

we are all saying the same thing over and over now..EA will go to vegas and lay the whips on them 30 amp guys! SMC up on ya!:eek:

speedxl 06-15-2004 04:03 PM

bigfoot nut sacks !:lol: thats funny and hairy also!:weird:

UCHEATULOSE 06-15-2004 07:04 PM


Originally posted by speedxl
bigfoot nut sacks !:lol: thats funny and hairy also!:weird:
i resemble that remark! :smile:

speedxl 06-16-2004 07:19 AM

:lol:

antoniop 06-16-2004 07:40 AM


Originally posted by ProMaX
(...)
"RDS:
Race Discharge Simulation is a testing process that simulates actual race conditions."

It's on the FAQ page, maybe I don't get it right? It says it's simulating a race discharge to weed out the weak cells. Isn't that what Jack is talking about? Isn't that better than 35A discharging? or 40A or 50A??

http://www.team-orion.ch/products/batteries.asp


p.s.
I think I'll stick with my 20A matched GP3300's they perform good enough for me!!

Promax,

It may simulate race conditions but I've seen very strange things.

When i got my first SMC packs I got a brand new T35GFX at the same time. I asked Danny what the parameters were for comparing values on the label with values on the GFX.
I tried that and to my surprise, the runtime was within 1 second of the label and the average voltage was spot on on 5 packs.

The first race with those packs was amazing. Only 3 guys made 13 laps on that track and I was one of them. The other guys were also using SMC packs at the time.

A couple of months later a friend of mine bought new packs from Orion and their labels had amazing numbers (1.183 and 420 discharge). I was impressed. Everybody was...

But he said that the car didn't feel the same.
With his permission I tried a cycle with the exact same parameters I used on mine.
The results were 1.158 and 353 sec discharge.

It seems to me that RDS may have some flaws, especially when that simulation gives poor results on the track. Linear discharge at 30 seems to produce much better packs from SMC.

I could give you more examples how some packs of 2nd generation GP matched at 20A by an european matcher are worthless when compared to SMC in particular and to 30A packs in general.

What I mean is, if SMC feels ok to release 35A it may happen (it just may happen) that they know what they area doing. RACERS (not NASA scientists) would be well advised to trust SMC on this regard.

Some of you may think is a marketing driven need, but if I try one and see a difference I wont really care what enlightened minds (or inquiring minds) tell me. I want that extra second!!!

I know I will, They never failed me, and dealing with SMC and Danny in particular is a pleasure.

tel 06-16-2004 08:04 AM

Going to higher amp matching is a good thing as long as it reflects what's going on at the race track. The matching process should be as abusive on the cells as your 7 turn modified touring car on carpet. This will filter out the weak and marginal cells more effectively. I see 2 mains reasons for matchers to move to higher amp draws:

1) If you are a large matcher like SMC and you can shave 30 seconds off matching times you save huge money. You can have fewer matchers to do the same work with less maintenance.

2) 35 amp matching is closer to what's going on in modified racing at the extremes (again 7 turn touring on carpet).

Let's say you can dump your pack in 5.5 minutes, that's 330 seconds. If your pack was matched at 35 amps and has a run time of 400 seconds your race conditions show you pulling greater than 35 amps on average.

If racers can continue to dump ever increasing capacity cells in ~5 minutes we need to up the matching current to mimic what's happenning on the race track. When 40 amp matchers are available matching companies will likely move to those just like they are moving to 35 amp now.

BTW, if you think the new SMC packs and the matching procedure are bogus, try a pack. Don't complain about stuff you haven't run or at least tested. I'll buy from any company that has a good product and makes me faster.

gquinlan 06-17-2004 08:05 AM

So, when exactly will the new cells be avaliable to the general public? I am going to the stock nats in July and was planning to buy new batteries for this event. But if the new cells will be available I really would like to get them.

trf racer 06-17-2004 08:53 AM

i ve read through some of the thread bt not all.
i understand what some people are saying about pushing the cells so much bt i understand that smc have done devopment to see how/if they r damaging them.
this isnt really a prob for me.
bt wot i want to now is how do we compare 35 amp av to 30 av?
i.e
i have a peak powerflow gp.specs are
av;1.195 and runtime;415s
so at 35 amp a pack of smc
av;1.165 and runtime;345s.

how would i tell weather the smc were good or not?
we have no charts or comparisons to give us a clue as to weather its a good pack or not.
will smc have charts conversions from 20,30 and 35 amp discharge?
thanks

Danny/SMC 06-17-2004 09:03 AM

trf racer: Coverting runtime is fairly easy. You multiply the runtime by the discharge rate then you divide that number by the rate you want to get info.

Example: 420 x 30 = 12600 divide 35 = 360.

Voltage is very hard to convert because it depends on the cells Internal Resistance. A high voltage cell can have .012 drop and a lower voltage cell may have .018 drop from 30 to 35 amps.


As far as to comparing your Peak numbers to SMC numbers that will be very hard to do. I don't know why but Orion/Peak seem to be using a different cutoff to get their cell info. Last time I checked a pack it was .02 lower in voltage and 25 seconds less in runtime on our equipment.

Lonestar 06-17-2004 11:01 AM


Originally posted by Danny/SMC
Last time I checked a pack it was .02 lower in voltage and 25 seconds less in runtime on our equipment.
Did I hear "lower discharge current" anyone? ;)

Paul

trf racer 06-17-2004 11:46 AM


Originally posted by Danny/SMC
trf racer: Coverting runtime is fairly easy. You multiply the runtime by the discharge rate then you divide that number by the rate you want to get info.

Example: 420 x 30 = 12600 divide 35 = 360.

Voltage is very hard to convert because it depends on the cells Internal Resistance. A high voltage cell can have .012 drop and a lower voltage cell may have .018 drop from 30 to 35 amps.


As far as to comparing your Peak numbers to SMC numbers that will be very hard to do. I don't know why but Orion/Peak seem to be using a different cutoff to get their cell info. Last time I checked a pack it was .02 lower in voltage and 25 seconds less in runtime on our equipment.

ok thank you.i didnt no there was a conversion for run time.
i understand what u mean about voltage,as the ir keeps changing from cycle to cycle the voltage would to write?this means that voltage would be to inconsistant to properly calculate?
i dont know about the cu-off voltage bt the matching system variably discharge amp through the cycle but it averages out to 30 amp.
this program is called race discharge system [rds]
it must fluctuate between 25-35 amp discharge.or even 20-40 amp discharge.i dont know but it does vary the discharge amp and averaes to 30 amp.

Joel Lagace 06-17-2004 06:14 PM

There is too much fudge factor when using variable discharge matching. To be able to compare cells to other cells its best to use fixed paramaters


charge rate 6amps
constant discharge rate 30amps or 35amps

To do race simulated discharge rates is nearly impossible. With 1000s of track and drivers with different driving styles how can a computer simulate "track" discharge rates?

Safe SX 06-17-2004 11:24 PM

battery chargers
 
Ok you guys you have talked the inside of a ducks bum out about charging and discharging batteries. But can anyone tell me is the new futaba cdr5000 a good charger or not. Thank you

Lonestar 06-18-2004 01:22 AM


Originally posted by Joel Lagace

To do race simulated discharge rates is nearly impossible. With 1000s of track and drivers with different driving styles how can a computer simulate "track" discharge rates?

How about a 2 or 3s sequence duplicated during the discharge, with a 30 (or even 35A) discharge? The sequance would have lower constant periods, and then a few peaks at 80A or 100A...

Just an idea. Obviously you cannot simulate a whole track with a discharger.

Paul

trf racer 06-18-2004 06:33 AM

Re: battery chargers
 

Originally posted by Safe SX
Ok you guys you have talked the inside of a ducks bum out about charging and discharging batteries. But can anyone tell me is the new futaba cdr5000 a good charger or not. Thank you
why not look at the futaba charger thread to see what people think.
we are allowed to talk even if it is out of a ducks bum,as long as its on topic.

its impossible to do rds because gearing,timing,car,course layout and more have got to be considered.
wot i think tho is meant by rds is varable.
as races vary in current drain.
in other words its not fixed dicharge.

UCHEATULOSE 06-20-2004 12:31 PM

WOW! congrats eric anderson for taking the 12th mod win at the kimbrough 400 on sunday! good job bro! guess those 35 amp packs run well on the track huh? ahhahaahahah:eek: :rolleyes:

DaveW 06-21-2004 06:51 AM

Joel Legace: There is too much fudge factor when using variable discharge matching. To be able to compare cells to other cells its best to use fixed paramaters...


That is a mouthful! With this statement i would like to ask a question for discussion sake. Since when did a parameter that is "off the chart" become a viable parameter? Im referring to the 5000 second runout that is the "standard" with almost all matching companies. I understand that Trinity made it the norm years ago, and the industry continues to follow/use it. My question is, why? Basically all a battery matcher does is "dyno" cells. Just as a motor dyno runs a motor for a period of time, to determine usable data. It runs the motor no more, no less, to determine the information based on chartable parameters. Actually, heat/repetition, ruins the results of a motors dyno run. Why not make a Turbomatcher do the same thing? No current cell for competitive racing would ever be used for a full 5000 seconds, so why is it a parameter for cell labeling? I understand that using the 5000 runout shows you what the cell can do to 5.4 volts (whatever the cutoff voltage is set too)... but, we never run our cars to that point... matter of fact, we avoid it! I guess it just seems to me, that setting a time, like 500 seconds, places the cells tested on an actual readable/comprable discharge curve. The T-35 still gives you the runtime to the cutoff, so you would still have the runtime in seconds at the set amperage for discharge. Some companies have done this in the past, which some have said to "inflate" the numbers. There really is no inflation, it just tells you what the cell's voltage is at the cutoff. You would still be able to see if one cell was better than another at the end of the 500 seconds... not only would the cell labels show this, but also graphs printed out from the Turbomatcher. The discharge curve could be compared to other cells, and actually be on a "scale" for "computation". If a parameter is out of possible range for the cell to ever reach, can it really be used as a guideline for computation? "Well, IF it could run 5000 seconds, this is what it would be." I dont want if, i want to know what i have in "X" seconds at "X" amp rate. We run 300 seconds for both stock and mod. Make the cutoff 500 seconds to be able to cover both modified and stock class. The rest is runtime we lose to the resistors of a T-35 . God knows we have plenty of runtime in todays packs. I know it is hard to think of things differently, we are a species that loves comfort, both in mind and being. But, we have round rubber tires today, because someone decided square wheels cut from stone didnt roll too well. I guess i posted this for the higher beings to reply and educate us "why" things are done as they are.

(P.S. Dont give me that its because of "cell memory" either... NiMh is nowhere NEAR as sensitive to that as NiCd was.)

- DaveW :weird:

Danny/SMC 06-21-2004 09:17 AM

DaveW: There would be no difference between 500 and 5000 because they both exceed the actual discharge seconds of a 3300 at 30 amps.

By changing the calculation point of the average voltage it makes for a higher average voltage on the label. A cell will also lose more avergae voltage at the tail end of the discharge curve so by stopping the average before it gets to the end it makes even more of difference.

rayhuang 06-21-2004 09:53 AM


Originally posted by UCHEATULOSE
WOW! congrats eric anderson for taking the 12th mod win at the kimbrough 400 on sunday! good job bro! guess those 35 amp packs run well on the track huh? ahhahaahahah:eek: :rolleyes:
He won 12th mod by 2-laps and finished second in the Ivitational to Daryl Silva!!! First time running asphalt/foam.

Ray


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