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-   -   35 Amp Graded cells from SMC coming soon (https://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/42469-35-amp-graded-cells-smc-coming-soon.html)

EAMotorsports 06-09-2004 08:33 PM

35 Amp Graded cells from SMC coming soon
 
Spoke with Danny today. SMC is putting the finishing touches on the 35 amp batteries. They got 60 new machines they are in the process of installing and will start matching all cells at 35 amps begining next week. The new cells will also be rated according to runtime now. For example if your a mod racer and need runtime the part number will be ____-MOD or for stock (High Volts/less runtime) ___-STOCK. And then there will be club level cells. It will make it easier to order batteries this way.

The 35 amp discharge rate seems to be working very well. It really seperates the good cells from the weaker ones. Which is great for the consumer. Team guys have been testing off and on for around 8 months with great success.

Just thought I'd share this with everyone....

EA

P.S. And yes I know I am a team driver for them

UCHEATULOSE 06-09-2004 09:00 PM

they let anyone on that damn team! ahahhahaah

those packs have some added pop! no sleepy cells at 35 boyz just the good ones survive ! as usual danny sets the bar and the other guys limbo under! i give it 3 months before they all say "35 amps" yeah thats the ticket... :eek:

wagonman72 06-09-2004 09:30 PM

Uh SMC isn't the first matcher to use a 35 amp discharge rate.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tqcells/

aviaar 06-09-2004 09:33 PM


Originally posted by wagonman72
Uh SMC isn't the first matcher to use a 35 amp discharge rate.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tqcells/

At least the first with a decent website and a company I'd be willing to purchase from!

Anyway, what kind of cells will the general racing public be allowed to purchase after the team members have their picks?

Advil 06-09-2004 09:39 PM

With Danny the customer ALWAYS comes first. Often the general public will find cells on their LHS shelf that are better than those the team gets. The good stuff gets sent out all the time!

Pace72 06-09-2004 10:28 PM

SMC team driver have use 35amp pack at the snowbird this years and it was before any other matcher or company!!

Danny at SMC is the leader!!

Pace

wagonman72 06-10-2004 12:31 AM

"as usual danny sets the bar and the other guys limbo under! i give it 3 months before they all say "35 amps" "

I was just commenting on the fact that other matchers have been using a 35 amp discharge rate for awhile. I'm sure he is a great guy but there others out there that have good ideas too.

EAMotorsports 06-10-2004 04:54 AM

Danny and Steve at TQ are good friends. Danny tested the first cells at 35 amps last year and told steve about them. He then started doing the same but since Steve is a much smaller matcher (5-10 Matchers) than Danny (60+matchers) Steve jumped out and put them for sale first.

How would you like to be CE and get a call from someone telling you they need 60 T35 matchers NOW!!! LOL Id crap my paints!!

EA

ChrisP 06-10-2004 05:01 AM

I know that at US Indoor Champs in Cleveland at least some of the SMC team guysy were running 35amp batteries...

Sounds like Danny was just making sure the bugs were worked out and that he was going to be delivering top-level product to the market.

TQCells may not have a flashy website, but I've been running a TQCells 4cell papck for 12th scale and they are nice and punchy and the price was right. I'd buy TQCells again in a heartbeat :D

JDM_DOHC_SiR 06-10-2004 05:17 AM

Re: 35 Amp Graded cells from SMC coming soon
 

Originally posted by EAMotorsports
Spoke with Danny today. SMC is putting the finishing touches on the 35 amp batteries. They got 60 new machines they are in the process of installing and will start matching all cells at 35 amps begining next week. The new cells will also be rated according to runtime now. For example if your a mod racer and need runtime the part number will be ____-MOD or for stock (High Volts/less runtime) ___-STOCK. And then there will be club level cells. It will make it easier to order batteries this way.

The 35 amp discharge rate seems to be working very well. It really seperates the good cells from the weaker ones. Which is great for the consumer. Team guys have been testing off and on for around 8 months with great success.

Just thought I'd share this with everyone....

EA

P.S. And yes I know I am a team driver for them


I wonder what Danny is going to do for the Japanese Market.... were we need both voltage and run time for Stock...( 8 min heats in STock and Mod :cry: )

-Dave:sneaky:

Randy Caster 06-10-2004 09:07 AM


Originally posted by EAMotorsports
How would you like to be CE and get a call from someone telling you they need 60 T35 matchers NOW!!! LOL Id crap my paints!!

EA

I'd have a huge smile on my face and go out and get a nice fat steak :D

Korgae 06-10-2004 09:33 AM

Hi Guys,

The New series is called "Pro Series"

and will be availbe iby the end of June. The Press Release just went out at the start of this week. Packs should be in shops by no later then Mid July.

these are based of the packs that we have used thoughout the year at races. Cyrul and Burch used these to capture the Snowbirds and Nationals.

We have re grouped them into 2 levels.

Stock- Highest voltage- lower runtime.
Mod- Highest run time- with the same or slighly less voltage.

I will post part #'s later.

P.S. Eric, you make us sound small with the amount of machines we have, that was a additional 60 machines. to what we already have. That is our second order of 35 amp machines :)


Korgae

SMC Racing

nashrcracer 06-10-2004 09:54 AM

Josh Cyrul was using the SMC 35 amp pack at cleveland in november last year. should of smoked everybody but was having other problems getting back in the game with his new car. can't wait to see what he'll do this year.

rayhuang 06-10-2004 10:06 AM


Originally posted by Windsorguy99
I know that at US Indoor Champs in Cleveland at least some of the SMC team guysy were running 35amp batteries...

Sounds like Danny was just making sure the bugs were worked out and that he was going to be delivering top-level product to the market.

TQCells may not have a flashy website, but I've been running a TQCells 4cell papck for 12th scale and they are nice and punchy and the price was right. I'd buy TQCells again in a heartbeat :D

I was lucky enough to run 4-35 amp packs since November 2003 and they are still my race packs!! IN fact I just bought some new SMC packs last week to become my new rocket round :lol: and Main packs and my old ones will still be used for racing.

That for me shows the durability and longevity from the 35 amp packs.

Ray
p.s. and NO I am NOT sponsored by SMC!!

Bobby Flack 06-10-2004 10:29 AM

I ran 35 amp discharge packs at almost every major race this year and never missed a main. Trust me when I say you will not have to worrry about HP with these packs.

StephenSobottka 06-10-2004 11:26 AM

Ive seen Bobby run, always very very fast.

Cain 06-10-2004 11:29 AM

So what will be the premium on these packs? Say $10 dollars more than a standard 30Amp pack with similar numbers?

I may be in the market for new packs later this year, will definitely look into these.

dr_hfuhuhurr 06-10-2004 12:45 PM

Only problem I see with this is trying to compare different matchers. Trying to compare 30A v 35A is going to be a huge pain. A 30A 1.17 420s pack is approximately what in a 35A pack?

If it produces higher quality cells then I'm all for it!

Bobby Flack 06-10-2004 12:57 PM

When comparing I usually say that for every 5 volt change on the discharge, the cell voltage is changed by .02. I'm not sure if this is exact, but thats how I learned it.

So, your 30A 1.17 would be a 1.15.

For runtime, i'm not exactly sure how to compare that but i'll bet Korgae can help me out on that one.

JDM_DOHC_SiR 06-10-2004 01:03 PM

35A
 
I belive that a goodvoltage 35 amp packwould be in the 1.17ish range and the good run time would be around 370 ish also:sweat: :sneaky:

hmmmmmm I wonder is Fantomwill be doing 35AMP stuff soon too now that SMC has there 35AMP stuff coming out:sweat:

-Dave:tire:

rangulo 06-10-2004 01:12 PM

Is this more of a marketing thing. Is SMC using a different matcher than anyone else? I thought all the cells with the GP label come from the same place. I have seen matchers go through their process and they will not hold a true 30 or 35 amp discharge for the whole cycle. They start at 30 but as the equipment gets hot and used over time the cycles get inaccurate. Why not cycle the cells at 40amps and sell them that way. If your reasoning for better cells is the 35 amp discharge, then I would say it is only a way for you to either charge more for the cells or give the customer a reason as to why you already charge more than the rest...

I think, I am more confused not more informed by the team driver explanations!!!

rayhuang 06-10-2004 01:16 PM


Originally posted by rangulo
Is this more of a marketing thing. Is SMC using a different matcher than anyone else? I thought all the cells with the GP label come from the same place. I have seen matchers go through their process and they will not hold a true 30 or 35 amp discharge for the whole cycle. They start at 30 but as the equipment gets hot and used over time the cycles get inaccurate. Why not cycle the cells at 40amps and sell them that way. If your reasoning for better cells is the 35 amp discharge, then I would say it is only a way for you to either charge more for the cells or give the customer a reason as to why you already charge more than the rest...

I think, I am more confused not more informed by the team driver explanations!!!

I am not 100% sure-but wasnt Danny the one to intoroduce 30 amp when everyone else dis at 20 amps? And how mnay poor guys bought 20 amp stuff because it had higher numbers than 30 amp stuff-which was actually faster.

It just takes time to re-adjust to the new numbers. Its not hype-I know Danny well enough to know he cares more about performance than anything else. Again_I am not sponsored-but the 35 amp stuff I got to try has been amazing!! Ran the same two packs at Champs, Birds and Nats and my cars were FAST every race!!!

UCHEATULOSE 06-10-2004 03:04 PM

stolen from danny from another forum:

To convert runtime from 30 to 35 you multiply the runtime by the discharge rate and then divide that number by the rate you want to convert it to.

Example: 360 @ 35 is 360x35 = 12600 divide by 30 = 420

There is no true way to convert voltage because it all depends on the cells IR. But on a decent voltage cell it's about .015 difference. On a lower voltage cell it can be up to .025.


I hear you about the numbers being different.

The 35 amp matched pack will be sold for the racer who needs and wants the best possible matched pack not the one who is looking for the best looking numbers on the stickers.

When I got CE to come out with the AIR and was the first company to use this new number I was accused by many of cheating and doing this to get rid of bad cells. Well I did it because I believed this was the best way to match a pack and over time my competitors eventually caught on and changed to it. So I think people will get use to 35 amps.

We will also keep supplying 30 amp matched packs until the market gets completely use to 35 amps.



The current equipment we have can only go to 35 amps so I have never tested 40 amps. I would have to say that 40 amps would probably be better than 35 amps but without testing it I can't really say for sure.

would like to keep both packs with the same retail. What i'm trying to do is to get the mod guys to be able to get packs with higher runtime through the local track or hobbyshop. The way things are now we sell 390+ in 3 different groups seperated by voltage. So hopefully this would mean that if you race modified you can get a high capacity pack. The voltage difference will most likely be .005 which is not big difference. With message boards such as this I think it's a great way to feel out what the customer needs and want and that is very important to me.

GP cycles and tests every cell it produces and in an attempt to sell cases with more consistent numbers they pick out cells that have higher average voltage on their equipment and set them aside. They will then sell you 10% of your total order of these supposedly higher average voltage cells.

It has been my experience that GPs test equipment is different than what we use and they see a bigger fluctuation in voltage than what we see. So on their machines a 1.12 can be 1.13-1.14 on ours and a 1.15 will only be 1.14-1.15. So when they think they have a super voltage cell it really isn't that much better on our equipment.

A case of top 10% cells will normally yield more 1.17s than a regular case but there still will be lower voltage cells. I have also seen regular cases be every bit as good as the 10% cases so that leads me to believe that their sorting or test equipment isn't to accurate. end of danny posts:

below is my rant,lol.......

and the team thing: at nationals and very large events each team member gets 1 pack for the week or weekend. the team guys during the year get avg batteries to run at the local level.
if you ever get a chance to meet danny and you want to try a pack of his at a big race dont be afraid to ask him. i have heard several stories from local florida racers that cannot believe he lent them a pack to run in the D or E main.. to be honest you should be able to walk up to any of the team guys and borrow a pack to try..just leave me your credit card and drivers license,lol....danny is a racer just like us..he is always looking for a better way to do things. if you think 35 amps is a gimmick than i'm a fool! lol


and i'm sorry but pro match,fukuyama,surge,kinetix...trinity , reedy, orion, peak, power push...none of those quality matchers have 35 amp numbers on there cells..and those are the companies i see in all the magazines with there name next to the A main winners? if someone else is selling 35 amp batteries it's not helping them cause they aint winning races.. win on sunday sell on monday... and like EA said sandhills and danny are tight..and i have seen there stuff in magazines lately...

it's just very hard to say this guys batteries are the best when i dont see there name next to someone in a A main ..in all honesty they could be great batteries ..who knows for sure..but 99% believe great stuff wins major races? just like great drivers do and great cars...



Danny-SMC
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EAMotorsports 06-10-2004 04:17 PM


Originally posted by rangulo
Is this more of a marketing thing. Is SMC using a different matcher than anyone else? I thought all the cells with the GP label come from the same place. I have seen matchers go through their process and they will not hold a true 30 or 35 amp discharge for the whole cycle. They start at 30 but as the equipment gets hot and used over time the cycles get inaccurate. Why not cycle the cells at 40amps and sell them that way. If your reasoning for better cells is the 35 amp discharge, then I would say it is only a way for you to either charge more for the cells or give the customer a reason as to why you already charge more than the rest...

I think, I am more confused not more informed by the team driver explanations!!!

Ralf do you always have to stir crap up? You get what you pay for just like anything else in the world. You want the best you pay for it!!!!

For those of you (consumer/other matchers) that think discharge rate doesnt mean anything you are completely WRONG!!! To prove it cycle some packs and get two packs that are really close in numbers. Run one pack with a low amp draw motor/car (4 cell stock, 12th scale stock, etc) and run the other one in a high amp draw car (any mod motor will do). Do this for 4 weeks and keep the batteries seperated and run them the same amount of times, etc. I guarntee you after 4 weeks the mod pack will have increased numbers and the stock pack will have fallen off some. I proved this to my self about a year and a half ago. The GP's like the higher discharge amps.

EA

P.S. Sorry Korgae I guess I misunderstood Danny!! But I did post 60+ machines!! LOL

Korgae 06-10-2004 04:24 PM

Here are the New part #'s for the Pro Series.


Part number_:
_
3506MOD__ High Runtime best suited for modified racing.___ ___ 115.00
_
3506STK___ High Voltage best_suited for stock racing.___ ___ ___ 115.00
_
3506P______ Good numbers best suited for club racing.___ ___ ___ 85.00

Ray- Yes SMC was the first to introduce 30 amp matching that we know of.
We were also the company to introduce AIR, into matching. We work pretty closely with CE on idea's for matching.


for the comparison of our cells to others, it will be difficult but 35 amp matching is where we had to go to continue on with evolution, I don't think we should hold back just because other matchers are stuck on 30. We are a "forward" only kinda company, and will work with the public as much as possible to familiarize everyone with 35 amp #'s..

Korgae
SMC





_
_
_

UCHEATULOSE 06-10-2004 04:32 PM

dont worry Ea i will take care of angulo fo rya! lol he is sponsored by another company and has battery envy! muhahahaha i'll have billy bruce motor by him in stock oval again! he he he;)

gee-dub 06-10-2004 04:40 PM

at what point (amp) will you actually be doing damage to the cells by discharging them at such a high rate?

there was a post on another forum regarding masami running 8-minutes in TC with 10 turns, and actually having 1-run battery packs (the heat apparently killed the runtime that fast on the pack). i know many pro's that run 7-9 turn motors, and actually can dump a pack in 5 minutes, tend to run through packs quite quickly also. i would have to think if you're charging/discharging/cycling packs at a high enough rate, you're going to start damaging the cell. no/yes?

UCHEATULOSE 06-10-2004 05:48 PM

ahhhh well the pros those in the A at every race use a pack once no matter what.. they need every single second of run time..run time is at it's best with a new pack..it may drop 8 seconds of run time after that one 5 minute run? and i would be first in line to buy any of those 1 run packs... 8 minutes in touring car with a mod motor would be something like 480 seconds? that is like a 25 amp load? matching at 35 helps eliminate dud cells better ..in the end on track performance will make danny a genius...results dont lie and he has been doing 35 for how many months now? how many guys in the A ?? looks good...

JPHRacer 06-10-2004 06:43 PM

For oval club racing we use 6 and 7 turn motors in mod all the time. I can dump a 430sec pack in 4 mins all day long if I want to, and I have been running the cells that, I got for the birds, as my club packs now. Thats been allmost 4 months of racing every week.

Thats over 100 amps that we can tap out of of the packs week in, week out, for 4 months, the packs are still going strong. 35, 40, 45, i dont think that will be any damage to the packs.

Paul_Kultcha 06-10-2004 07:00 PM

Danny has always been doing a good job with batteries - even before he started SMC and built up his present reputation. I ran his batteries 12+ years ago and I have some now and they have always been quality.

I have run crap cells from a number of companies over the years...and its funny to me that I never see anyone complaining about those companies.

Adam Hartzell 06-10-2004 07:28 PM

I give props to Danny because the stickers don't lie. I know that a lot of people buy packs based on the stickers, I do not because I got a few packs that were completly crap eventhough the sticker claimed 1.89v 436 run time @ 30amp.

I buy only what I trust and I trust Danny's packs to be the best at any level.

RecordBreaker 06-10-2004 07:30 PM


Originally posted by UCHEATULOSE


and i'm sorry but pro match,fukuyama,surge,kinetix...trinity , reedy, orion, peak, power push...none of those quality matchers have 35 amp numbers on there cells..and those are the companies i see in all the magazines with there name next to the A main winners? if someone else is selling 35 amp batteries it's not helping them cause they aint winning races.. win on sunday sell on monday... and like EA said sandhills and danny are tight..and i have seen there stuff in magazines lately...


After reading through this thread, I feel compelled to write a few things..

Other matchers will be able to quickly switch over to the 35 amp match rate, that is even if it catches on.. and frankly I don't know why it would. Here is my reasoning - When GP cells are taken off of CE 4/35 machines they are RED HOT. You can't even hold them in your hand without burning yourself. Now add another 5 amps to the total discharge rate and what do you have.. an even HOTTER cell. GP cells can take a lot of punishment, but come on! Isn't one of the basic principals of Ni-MH cells not to overheat? I think it would be prudent to think that by cranking the discharge amperage up you could actually wind up damaging the cell.. and what exactly do you think an extra 5 amps going to actually do? Cells are effectively weeded out by a 30 amp process. I find it highly unlikely you will find many, if any, further weak cells by matching at a 35 amp discharge rate. Oh and heres the thing that gets me.. Unless your running a very low turn modifed motor your not going to draw 35 amps.. your not even go to draw 30 amps so there go's that theory!

SMC has always matched a quality cell, that I will not contest.. but for all you SMC staff, please give me a very technicial, detailed reason as to why cells matched utilizing at 35 amp discarge rate are better than cells matched utilizing a 30 amp rate. At this point all I see is a clever marketing scheme to increase sales.. creating hype with no real basis.

Sorry SMC, I don't see the logic.

RB

The Black Kat 06-10-2004 07:37 PM

RB: Its designed to weed out the bad cells better

But my question is: What does Danny do with the bad cells?

Adam Hartzell 06-10-2004 07:39 PM

My only grip is if you are weeding out even more cells won't that drive up cost as you won't have as many to sell.

RecordBreaker 06-10-2004 07:40 PM


Originally posted by The Black Kat
RB: Its designed to weed out the bad cells better

But my question is: What does Danny do with the bad cells?

As I stated in my post - You are NOT going to weed out many more cells, if any, by utilizing a 35 amp discharge rate during the matching process. You may even damage the cells by discharging at that amperage.


EAMotorsports 06-10-2004 07:47 PM


Originally posted by RecordBreaker
As I stated in my post - You are NOT going to weed out many more cells, if any, by utilizing a 35 amp discharge rate during the matching process. You may even damage the cells by discharging at that amperage.
Dont you think after 9-10 months of testing that Danny knows if the cells are going to be damaged or not? Are none of the answers that have been posted already not good enough for you? Do you think he is going to put out a subpar product and go down in quality from the stuff he has now? He has the best batteries around as it is...And I can tell you for a fact that EVERY cell that comes in goes right back out quicker than any other matcher around!! His backorder list is huge. So I ask why do you think he NEEDS a sales gimmick with the demand he already has?

EA

Adam Hartzell 06-10-2004 07:50 PM


Originally posted by EAMotorsports
His backorder list is huge.

I remember waiting until 2 days before carpet nats. for my packs to show up at my lhs.

RecordBreaker 06-10-2004 07:56 PM


Originally posted by EAMotorsports
Dont you think after 9-10 months of testing that Danny knows if the cells are going to be damaged or not? Are none of the answers that have been posted already not good enough for you? Do you think he is going to put out a subpar product and go down in quality from the stuff he has now? He has the best batteries around as it is...And I can tell you for a fact that EVERY cell that comes in goes right back out quicker than any other matcher around!! His backorder list is huge. So I ask why do you think he NEEDS a sales gimmick with the demand he already has?

EA

No EA, those answers are not good enough for me, I am quite positive there is no advantage of a 35 amp discharge process and I am very well versed in Ni-MH battery chemistry.. So I guess I'll just sit here and wait until someone from SMC give me a technicial explanation of why this is better.

BigDogRacing 06-10-2004 08:01 PM


Originally posted by Adam Hartzell
My only grip is if you are weeding out even more cells won't that drive up cost as you won't have as many to sell.
I would've thought the same thing Adam, but turns out that it's a LOT more cost effective to chunk a bad cell that might have slipped by than replace a WHOLE PACK to a customer who lost a cell!!

EAMotorsports 06-10-2004 08:03 PM


Originally posted by RecordBreaker
No EA, those answers are not good enough for me, I am quite positive there is no advantage of a 35 amp discharge process and I am very well versed in Ni-MH battery chemistry.. So I guess I'll just sit here and wait until someone from SMC give me a technicial explanation of why this is better.
Well if your so "versed" then why dont you give us YOUR reason that it is NOT better? Im sure myself and a few others might find it entertaining.

EA


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