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-   -   35 Amp Graded cells from SMC coming soon (https://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/42469-35-amp-graded-cells-smc-coming-soon.html)

daniz24 06-11-2004 06:15 PM

SMC Cells are great !!! Low price, high performance batteries...

Too bad its availability is really sucks, especially in our part of the world... Again, it is too bad..... :cry: :cry:

cr250 06-11-2004 06:15 PM

........

UCHEATULOSE 06-11-2004 06:54 PM


Originally posted by RecordBreaker
I'm going to make a call tomorrow and ask my friend if I can borrow his TM 4/35. If he says yes I can gonna order a few bulk, unmatched GP cells from a matcher. Match a few at 30 amps, a few at 35 taking temperature readings with temperature gauge at the end of each matching cycle. I'll post my results.
so you dont match batteries for a living? hmmmm yeah i fully trust your knowledge..could you maybe steer me in the right direction next time i go in for brain surgery as well?

i think danny decided to switch to 35 amps so he had to go out and buy another 60 turbo matchers? i mean everyone is looking for an excuse to throw money away right?


c'mon if discharging at 35 amps is killing the cells than why dont we all buy 5 amp matched packs? i mean at 5 amps the cells should be realy pampered..they should be in tip top shape done at 5 amps?

and the "i'm fully versed in the nimh battery school" but you dont own even 1 turbo matcher?

yeah i think i'll leave the battery matching up to a expert..an expert meaning someone who matches batteries for his living.

danny doesn't do this in his back yard in his neighbors garage..this is not a part time thing for him...i will always trust what danny says about batteries and how to care for them..he has never led me wrong...

my personal oppinion is..in less tha 6 months more than a few players in matching will go the way of 35 amps...did you all argue so much when they jumped from 10 to 20 ? how about from 20 to 25? well than you must have been miffed when they went from 25 to 30 right? look where this is heading bro..new batteries..bigger faster stronger..different methods of matching them...

EA nor myslelf match batteries..we charge them and tape them into the car..if they go fast we are happy..if danny can help us go even faster..were happier...if EA breaks a few old records..maybe people will take notice? some things on paper look good but dont always equate well in a car? and sometimes it's the other way around?

i'll sit back and in 6 months post here again with the companies that switched to 35 amps...
so far i know of 2 ??
sand hills
smc

if anyone would like to add to the list just post below..

hey and at 35 you can match how many more cells an hour?

also SMC had had for a long time there very own Q&A thread here on rc tech..anyone with technicla questions should post them there..charging,storage etc....korgae or danny has always answered them..

and korgae hit the nail on the head..matchers who sell directly to the public make a larger profit in the end..

kinetix goes from kinetix to the internet..no middleman (distributor) no hobby shop?

SMC goes through the proper channels..distirbutor..from there to the local hobby shop and from there to the consumer...now my local hobby shop will be around for awhile longer..so danny does not price his packs any higher than the guy working from his garage..the distributor takes a cut..than the hobby shop...

brand X can sell his stuff dirt cheap ..yet still make more per pack because he just cut out 2 mouths to feed..

i'm sorry but i need my local hobby shop to be there for me..

to make this real clear..

smc sells there best pack to the distibutor for 35.00 a 6 cell
distributor sells the 35.00 pack to the hobby shop for 50.00
local shop sells the same pack for 70.00...you see how they all make money? that is the idea

now brand X sells his best pack for 50.00 to the public...thats 20.00 cheaper than the local hobby shops smc pack??? oh my god..rape rape rape.... wait a second..look at my math..

danny sells his pack for 35.00 thats 6 gp cells
brand X sells his best pack for 50.00 thats 6 gp cells

danny is making money at 35.00 a pack
brand X working from a garage(example) is making how much more per pack? hmmmmmmm who is realy the rapist here?

unknowing customer is happy he bought a pack for 50.00 thats 20.00 cheaper than smc..ha he got a real steal...right?

i mean his local shop is selling overpriced smc packs? unknowing customer is not hurting the local hobby shop is he? naaa they will find a way to make money right?

WOA what do you mean my favorite shop that is 4 miles from my house is going out of business? how can this be? now i have to drive 50 miles if i need that servo saver??

wake up guys..i'm sorry but buying the so called "cheaper" pack is going to bite you in the butt sooner than later..

ignorance is bliss...i see lots of happy people here! :eek:

JayBee 06-11-2004 07:32 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UCHEATULOSE
so you dont match batteries for a living? hmmmm yeah i fully trust your knowledge..could you maybe steer me in the right direction next time i go in for brain surgery as well?

i think danny decided to switch to 35 amps so he had to go out and buy another 60 turbo matchers? i mean everyone is looking for an excuse to throw money away right?


c'mon if discharging at 35 amps is killing the cells than why dont we all buy 5 amp matched packs? i mean at 5 amps the cells should be realy pampered..they should be in tip top shape done at 5 amps?

and the "i'm fully versed in the nimh battery school" but you dont own even 1 turbo matcher?

yeah i think i'll leave the battery matching up to a expert..an expert meaning someone who matches batteries for his living.

danny doesn't do this in his back yard in his neighbors garage..this is not a part time thing for him...i will always trust what danny says about batteries and how to care for them..he has never led me wrong...

my personal oppinion is..in less tha 6 months more than a few players in matching will go the way of 35 amps...did you all argue so much when they jumped from 10 to 20 ? how about from 20 to 25? well than you must have been miffed when they went from 25 to 30 right? look where this is heading bro..new batteries..bigger faster stronger..different methods of matching them...

EA nor myslelf match batteries..we charge them and tape them into the car..if they go fast we are happy..if danny can help us go even faster..were happier...if EA breaks a few old records..maybe people will take notice? some things on paper look good but dont always equate well in a car? and sometimes it's the other way around?

i'll sit back and in 6 months post here again with the companies that switched to 35 amps...
so far i know of 2 ??
sand hills
smc

if anyone would like to add to the list just post below..

hey and at 35 you can match how many more cells an hour?

also SMC had had for a long time there very own Q&A thread here on rc tech..anyone with technicla questions should post them there..charging,storage etc....korgae or danny has always answered them..

and korgae hit the nail on the head..matchers who sell directly to the public make a larger profit in the end..

kinetix goes from kinetix to the internet..no middleman (distributor) no hobby shop?

SMC goes through the proper channels..distirbutor..from there to the local hobby shop and from there to the consumer...now my local hobby shop will be around for awhile longer..so danny does not price his packs any higher than the guy working from his garage..the distributor takes a cut..than the hobby shop...

brand X can sell his stuff dirt cheap ..yet still make more per pack because he just cut out 2 mouths to feed..

i'm sorry but i need my local hobby shop to be there for me..

to make this real clear..

smc sells there best pack to the distibutor for 35.00 a 6 cell
distributor sells the 35.00 pack to the hobby shop for 50.00
local shop sells the same pack for 70.00...you see how they all make money? that is the idea

now brand X sells his best pack for 50.00 to the public...thats 20.00 cheaper than the local hobby shops smc pack??? oh my god..rape rape rape.... wait a second..look at my math..

danny sells his pack for 35.00 thats 6 gp cells
brand X sells his best pack for 50.00 thats 6 gp cells

danny is making money at 35.00 a pack
brand X working from a garage(example) is making how much more per pack? hmmmmmmm who is realy the rapist here?

unknowing customer is happy he bought a pack for 50.00 thats 20.00 cheaper than smc..ha he got a real steal...right?

i mean his local shop is selling overpriced smc packs? unknowing customer is not hurting the local hobby shop is he? naaa they will find a way to make money right?

WOA what do you mean my favorite shop that is 4 miles from my house is going out of business? how can this be? now i have to drive 50 miles if i need that servo saver??

wake up guys..i'm sorry but buying the so called "cheaper" pack is going to bite you in the butt sooner than later..

ignorance is bliss...i see lots of happy people here! :eek:
[

/QUOTE]

HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!! :p :nod:

The Black Kat 06-11-2004 07:51 PM


Originally posted by UCHEATULOSE
SMC goes through the proper channels
What the hell do you mean PROPER....

Its makes it seem like your trying to make SMC look supereor compared to Kinetix...

I can almost promise that Kinetix does NOT DO THEIR MATCHING IN A GARAGE.

Thats probably one thing that PO'ed Record Breaker

I need to try something before I grade it so I woun't offer my side on the cells but they way you guys are making SMC seem supereor to anything else IS WRONG

Everyone has their own like & everyone has their own way...

Korgae 06-11-2004 08:08 PM

Actually I think Kinetix packs along with Fantom, New wave, TQ and a few others are very well done. I would buy them if I had to !

Awesome Quality, Awesome people.



The Bottom line, we have a new series of packs that feature 35 amp matching:)

rayhuang 06-11-2004 08:09 PM

Record breaker said he likes to debate. Having said that-people who like t debate also dont like to lose and they NEVER admit that the other side has made valid points. A good debater's gift is his ability to "spin" the answers of others.

That is whay I posted to RB that I will not debate with him as I am am not a good debater. I cannot play the the game-though i understand how it works!! Korgae and EA, etc. its no worry-you cannot beat him at his game. I had a great friend in college who was in debate team in High School and he would drive me NUTS!! You couldnt talk abut weather baskin and robbins vanilla was as good as ben and Jerry's without having to talk about how ice cream is made-the purity of the ingrediants till 5am and your both red in the face and hourse.

I see in RB that he is a debater so therefore he will not be swayed by anything anybody says.

The Black Kat 06-11-2004 08:11 PM

Good luck to SMC & to whoever purchases them

If they become the next hot thing I'll get some when I need some new batterys (hell, I need some now but crappy batterys are better than none) When I have some Hamiltons back in my hand :nod:

EAMotorsports 06-11-2004 08:21 PM


Originally posted by The Black Kat
What the hell do you mean PROPER....

Its makes it seem like your trying to make SMC look supereor compared to Kinetix...

I can almost promise that Kinetix does NOT DO THEIR MATCHING IN A GARAGE.

Thats probably one thing that PO'ed Record Breaker

I need to try something before I grade it so I woun't offer my side on the cells but they way you guys are making SMC seem supereor to anything else IS WRONG

Everyone has their own like & everyone has their own way...

If you guys only knew the truth about other "matchers"!! LMAO!!! I will leave it at that

Also AMEN on what UCHEAT Said...He hit the nail on the head so hard he broke it off!!

EA

The Black Kat 06-11-2004 08:30 PM


Originally posted by EAMotorsports
If you guys only knew the truth about other "matchers"!! LMAO!!! I will leave it at that

Also AMEN on what UCHEAT Said...He hit the nail on the head so hard he broke it off!!

EA

The only thing he broke off was....ahh screw it...lol

UCHEATULOSE 06-11-2004 09:16 PM

EA you do know this is katf1sh right?

and those are the proper channels...

and ray you make alot of sense..that is you cant win a debate!

SMC do you know what the S stands for? superior muahhahaahahahahahahahaahahhaahahahhh


sorry though i just used kinetix as an example..i read there name was brought up so i used it.. i should realy only accuse the garage matchers that i see for myself...but it's very close to being true..some dont even have garages to use..basements,closets and trailers come in handy,lol...

i'm just glad eric started all of this....his 1.19's he gets went down to 1.17's ahahahahahahaahah

i dont think this thread is productive anymore?

SMC has there very own Q&A thread on rc tech if you guys have serious questions about charging, and storage..i would post there for getting questions answered...

:tire:

JayBee 06-11-2004 09:57 PM


Originally posted by cr250
I am POSITIVE that excessive, extreme heat kills Nimh batteries. I am very familiar with Nimh batteries and how they function. I have matched cells that were graded at every charge and discharge rate that is reasonability available. These same cells were then assembled and tested again while digitally recording discharge data. This data was then graphed to obtain individual performance curves for each pack. This data is real. These same packs were then cycled many times in an attempt to duplicate the operating life they may see in a RC vehicle. Guess what I discovered? Excessive heat KILLS!!!!!!!!!

Because a cell charging/discharging is nothing more than a chemical reaction, it is temperature dependent. ALL chemical reactions are faster at higher temperatures. That's one of the reasons why cells perform noticeably better when they are at an acceptable warm temperature. If you exceed what is acceptable, electrolyte damage and potential venting offset the faster temperature-chemical gains and performance goes down, along with cell life. It's those high, electrolyte-damaging temperatures that permanently damages cells. Again, all I'm asking for is a technical explanation as to why a 35-amp discharge is better. I mentioned my education background only to support my desire for this explanation.

Lastly, don't under estimate the power of MARKETING. There is nothing wrong with making a procedural change for the sake of marketing.

NICE POST MAN -- it may say teck rookie under your name but it is definitely evident that you're not a rook in the NiMH dept.; thanks for the info, and keep posting man. ;) :nod: :nod:

JayBee 06-11-2004 10:20 PM


Originally posted by Evicerator
Very scientific thread we have going on here ;)

I was thinking of going to see a movie today but why when I can stay here and be entertained all day for simply the cost of electricity!

:)

FYI, juding by what I've seen and tested (hey, I work for Novak) I'd estimate peak (NOT CONSTANT) current draw from "hot" modified motors to be well over 100 amps ;)

i know, THIS IS GREAT ISN'T IT. i love this technical sh--. :eek:
i gotta keep reading

cr250 06-12-2004 06:50 AM

........

Lonestar 06-12-2004 07:49 AM

wwhy doesnt anybody come with a matching process that REALLY simulates what happens on the track, ie constantly varying loads, instead of unrealistic constant currents...

If 35A is that much better because it better corresponds to average loads our packs withstand on the track, then why not do something that really reflects reality?

Just my 2 cents

Paul

Lonestar 06-12-2004 07:57 AM

3 more questions:

1- What is that "weed out" rate when going from 30A to 35A? And what happens to the cells that are weeded out? Do they vent? Do they melt? Do their figures collapse? And in the end, what do matchers do with them? Throw them in the trash?

2- What's the statistical repartition of 35A matched cells compared to 30A? Because if it's the same, there's no point in doing it... the best cells at 30A are also the best at 35A... just like integy's best 20A cells are comparable to most matchers' 30A cells.

3- Why do people get so friggin' nuts about battery numbers when most of us can't drive to save our lives? What percentage of drivers do you know who can run a full 5 minutes within a couple of tenths of the track records? Maybe we should try to drive better instead of blaming our gear when we're slow. as somebody said, don't underestimate the POWER OF MARKETING. Remember, the TC3 is 5 years old and it can still whoop your butt.

I know I sound PO'ed, and it's because I am. I hate it when people either worship or flame a brand without understanding the underlying technical issues. And so far this thread is turning into a "mine's bigger than yours" thread.

Paul

PS: I've ran Danny's cells before... and true, they were among the best... just like ProMatch, and (the late) WorldClassBatts.

Kevin K 06-12-2004 11:56 AM


Originally posted by Lonestar
3- Why do people get so friggin' nuts about battery numbers when most of us can't drive to save our lives?
This is a VERY profound statement...... :tire:

Jack Rimer 06-12-2004 07:23 PM

I don't think we believe we are any better or worse than anyone else who matches batteries. We choose to do it one way, someone else does it another. Does it really matter? Maybe, maybe not. We've had great success this year running 35 amp cells. Does that mean it was the batteries or the motors, or the driving, or the car, or the tires...well, we know it was the tires.LOL. Anyway, the battery debate always seems to stir emotions. The unfortunate reality is only the top few drivers can probably translate any performance advantage into meaningful results. We are going with 35 amps because we can honestly say we have won the biggest races of the year with it. Why argue with success? It doesn't take a degree to figure that one out. When someone else wins with their new 10 amp packs give me a call.

rayhuang 06-12-2004 07:33 PM

I dont in any way shape or form see this is a "ours is bigger than yours" thread. What i see are people taking stabs-some pretty nasty at SMC and a few people trying to defend them with very well thught out and written and factual posts.

If this were the Tc3 thread and someone came on saying TC3 suck-buy a Losi-ummmmm........

Alll you would see posted for the next 5 hours would be people defending Tc3's and asking why anyone would come into a thread about Associated Tc3 product and start blasting it?

Am I wrong? IN this case I know I am not wrong.

And unlke a few very proud RCTechers on this thread-I will gladly admit when I a wrong.

rayhuang 06-12-2004 07:48 PM

Paul,

Its too bad Fabio from SRC is not on here to post as he can really put into words why 35 amp is "different" than 30 amp matching and why its better for the serious racer.

I think (and these opinions are MINE-not Danny's or Jacks).

1. The cells best suited to 35 amp discharging will be sorted into the 35 amps stock.

2. unfortunately thats not a real good way to look at it-as a cell thats gone through a 35 amp matching process will behave different than a 30 amp matched pack. As Josh Cyrul said-they have more power for mod and provide more punch in stock than the battery that was matched at 30. So in other words-after purchasing a 35 am p pack and a 30 amp SMC pack you cycle them BOTH at30 on your T35 GFX-they may have the exact same numbers on the cycles-but will perform different on the track.

3.Your right about the driving part-but again-the power of marketing? When is the last time you saw a full page SMC add in a rag? They are lucky enough that there reputation is spread racer to racer.

Sorry your PO'd, but just think how the people who use SMC are by Recordbreakers and others nasty attacks against SMC and Danny's integrity.

I Pay to use SMC batteries and I a PO'd too.



Originally posted by Lonestar
3 more questions:

1- What is that "weed out" rate when going from 30A to 35A? And what happens to the cells that are weeded out? Do they vent? Do they melt? Do their figures collapse? And in the end, what do matchers do with them? Throw them in the trash?

2- What's the statistical repartition of 35A matched cells compared to 30A? Because if it's the same, there's no point in doing it... the best cells at 30A are also the best at 35A... just like integy's best 20A cells are comparable to most matchers' 30A cells.

3- Why do people get so friggin' nuts about battery numbers when most of us can't drive to save our lives? What percentage of drivers do you know who can run a full 5 minutes within a couple of tenths of the track records? Maybe we should try to drive better instead of blaming our gear when we're slow. as somebody said, don't underestimate the POWER OF MARKETING. Remember, the TC3 is 5 years old and it can still whoop your butt.

I know I sound PO'ed, and it's because I am. I hate it when people either worship or flame a brand without understanding the underlying technical issues. And so far this thread is turning into a "mine's bigger than yours" thread.

Paul

PS: I've ran Danny's cells before... and true, they were among the best... just like ProMatch, and (the late) WorldClassBatts.


JDM_DOHC_SiR 06-12-2004 08:17 PM


Originally posted by rayhuang


3.Your right about the driving part-but again-the power of marketing? When is the last time you saw a full page SMC add in a rag?



Just Last week here in Japan...( RC World Sorex Japan doesa awesome job of pushing SMC here in Japan...and "THEY ARE THE BENCH MARK" to beat in Japan:sweat: :nod:

And to the wonderful guys at SMC....when will Japan see these 35A packs:sweat: :nod:
THanks:sneaky:
-Dave:tire:

IncogneatO 06-12-2004 09:38 PM

As the World Turns
 
Wow. This really is a Soap Opera. Much like Evicerator, I have watched this unfold as well.

I think the new grading will be a step in the right direction. Not necessarily because of the 35A part, but because of the separation of what is desirable in stock, versus mod. Although it does leave room to charge consumers good money for low runtime "stock" cells that in the current structure would be much less than team cells. We'll have to see how it all plays out.

It's occured to me that the CELLS turned out in the process will not be any better than with the standard 30A discharge, BUT the PACKS could be better if the match is truly more precise. Maybe that has already been mentioned.

What's wrong with wanting a scholarly explanation of what's going on? Remember, however, that a "scientific" explanation can come from experience, as well as, from books, etc. Part of science is the experimental side, and the gobs of data generated from testing. That can be very scientific. But, I am sure that any engineers out there, that have made a living out of corresponding data to actual chemistry or physics would appreciate their money going to someone who has the drive and the appreciation to aspire to that level in an effort to relate and sell to all of his/her customers. So far it is nearly apparent that none of SMC's spokes persons here have taken that step. It's OK to have high demands as a customer, but it is also wise to prepare for disappointment on a frequent basis.

Danny delivers to those racers who have the highest demands regarless of their technical expertise. And that is what sells in this industry/hobby. It is not rare for the fastest guys to sound like idiots if you ask them about anything more than power, rollout, or tweak. That's just a fact that is painful to stomach for anyone that hopes a superior intellect will fill a void in skill. And I am NOT implying that is the case with anyone who has posted here. A few of the fastest racers around aren't even the primary mechanics! Nuts to me, but it speaks volumes about talent at the wheel. Which, by the way, is why track data is so tough to put stock in. Yeah, it's what counts, but there are so many variables, that it would drive an engineer crazy to consider. Often a game of numbers. How about that if you don't get a good start in a 5minute race, you're done. Period. SMC, Kinetix, Pro-Match. It doesn't matter. Chris Doseck won the Cleveland a few years back, and Trinity had a field day with that. But if you saw the race, you would have seen that it wasn't horsepower that put Chris in the winners circle. It was maintaining consistency while the hottest cars out there lost it.

These boards are here so that intelligent discussion can take place. It's best when it's free of bashing, but people's defensive nature usually propels things to escalate to that level. Personally, I believe that the truth always gets exposed given time, and efforts to stiffle that process are often a substantial indicator of hidden agendas.

Is that happening here? I don't think so, but to have a post here for a product, is to advertise. Regardless of intent, that is what it does. Advertising breeds sales, and sales persons face all types of customers. Skilled salespersons can effectively address any and all questions. There are still questions here that were poorly addressed, and perhaps, poorly formulated to begin with. Here is mine:

Can SMC, in all it's successes, turn to a friend, contracted thinker, or otherwise to correlate the increased track performance to a change in chemical or physical reactions taking place within their newly matched cells?

A "No" will suffice as an answer, but it is unfair to ridicule someone who seeks that kind of understanding from a top level company.

A "Yes", followed by the explanation would do wonders for anyone who is on the fence. This would further SMC's claim to being the frontrunners time and time again. Again, personally, I see no logical reason that this information, should not be shared with consumers.

Let's cool off just a bit.:D

JayBee 06-13-2004 01:24 AM

Re: As the World Turns
 

Originally posted by IncogneatO
Wow. This really is a Soap Opera. Much like Evicerator, I have watched this unfold as well.

I think the new grading will be a step in the right direction. Not necessarily because of the 35A part, but because of the separation of what is desirable in stock, versus mod. Although it does leave room to charge consumers good money for low runtime "stock" cells that in the current structure would be much less than team cells. We'll have to see how it all plays out.

It's occured to me that the CELLS turned out in the process will not be any better than with the standard 30A discharge, BUT the PACKS could be better if the match is truly more precise. Maybe that has already been mentioned.

What's wrong with wanting a scholarly explanation of what's going on? Remember, however, that a "scientific" explanation can come from experience, as well as, from books, etc. Part of science is the experimental side, and the gobs of data generated from testing. That can be very scientific. But, I am sure that any engineers out there, that have made a living out of corresponding data to actual chemistry or physics would appreciate their money going to someone who has the drive and the appreciation to aspire to that level in an effort to relate and sell to all of his/her customers. So far it is nearly apparent that none of SMC's spokes persons here have taken that step. It's OK to have high demands as a customer, but it is also wise to prepare for disappointment on a frequent basis.

Danny delivers to those racers who have the highest demands regarless of their technical expertise. And that is what sells in this industry/hobby. It is not rare for the fastest guys to sound like idiots if you ask them about anything more than power, rollout, or tweak. That's just a fact that is painful to stomach for anyone that hopes a superior intellect will fill a void in skill. And I am NOT implying that is the case with anyone who has posted here. A few of the fastest racers around aren't even the primary mechanics! Nuts to me, but it speaks volumes about talent at the wheel. Which, by the way, is why track data is so tough to put stock in. Yeah, it's what counts, but there are so many variables, that it would drive an engineer crazy to consider. Often a game of numbers. How about that if you don't get a good start in a 5minute race, you're done. Period. SMC, Kinetix, Pro-Match. It doesn't matter. Chris Doseck won the Cleveland a few years back, and Trinity had a field day with that. But if you saw the race, you would have seen that it wasn't horsepower that put Chris in the winners circle. It was maintaining consistency while the hottest cars out there lost it.

These boards are here so that intelligent discussion can take place. It's best when it's free of bashing, but people's defensive nature usually propels things to escalate to that level. Personally, I believe that the truth always gets exposed given time, and efforts to stiffle that process are often a substantial indicator of hidden agendas.

Is that happening here? I don't think so, but to have a post here for a product, is to advertise. Regardless of intent, that is what it does. Advertising breeds sales, and sales persons face all types of customers. Skilled salespersons can effectively address any and all questions. There are still questions here that were poorly addressed, and perhaps, poorly formulated to begin with. Here is mine:

Can SMC, in all it's successes, turn to a friend, contracted thinker, or otherwise to correlate the increased track performance to a change in chemical or physical reactions taking place within their newly matched cells?

A "No" will suffice as an answer, but it is unfair to ridicule someone who seeks that kind of understanding from a top level company.

A "Yes", followed by the explanation would do wonders for anyone who is on the fence. This would further SMC's claim to being the frontrunners time and time again. Again, personally, I see no logical reason that this information, should not be shared with consumers.

Let's cool off just a bit.:D

WOW!- that's a lot to swallow, but I have to follow suit.

Lonestar 06-13-2004 01:57 AM

Re: As the World Turns
 
IncogneatO, it's rare to see such well-written, cold-blooded, logically constructed statements on any rc-board. I'd be curious to know who you really are under that alias...

Right on. I would like to understand what's going on from a technical standpoint. And so far every technical question (whether it's about cell chemistry or matching statistics) has been answered with a "who cares about technique, it's the number_of_wins/customer_satisfaction/our_track_record/Danny's_personality that counts".

I'm not blaming SMC in particular. This kind of discussion happens every time a "new" technique appears on the market, whether it's motors, brushes, batteries, transmission, whatever. Every brand has its loyal customers and fierceful detractors, and every time they all get emotional and forget real facts and figures.

I, too, am an (electrical) engineer. My specialization is in signal processing, so I know a thing or two about statistics. I, too, want to understand. Can't anybody with real battery zapping hindsight and no ownership/sponsorship/emotional implication with battery matching (SMC or others) please enlighten us with technical explanations and figures? So far only cr250 has played by these rules...


Thanks,
Paul

PS: Sorry if my english is not 100% right. This is far from being my native language.

Originally posted by IncogneatO
Wow. This really is a Soap Opera. Much like Evicerator, I have watched this unfold as well.

I think the new grading will be a step in the right direction. Not necessarily because of the 35A part, but because of the separation of what is desirable in stock, versus mod. Although it does leave room to charge consumers good money for low runtime "stock" cells that in the current structure would be much less than team cells. We'll have to see how it all plays out.

It's occured to me that the CELLS turned out in the process will not be any better than with the standard 30A discharge, BUT the PACKS could be better if the match is truly more precise. Maybe that has already been mentioned.

What's wrong with wanting a scholarly explanation of what's going on? Remember, however, that a "scientific" explanation can come from experience, as well as, from books, etc. Part of science is the experimental side, and the gobs of data generated from testing. That can be very scientific. But, I am sure that any engineers out there, that have made a living out of corresponding data to actual chemistry or physics would appreciate their money going to someone who has the drive and the appreciation to aspire to that level in an effort to relate and sell to all of his/her customers. So far it is nearly apparent that none of SMC's spokes persons here have taken that step. It's OK to have high demands as a customer, but it is also wise to prepare for disappointment on a frequent basis.

Danny delivers to those racers who have the highest demands regarless of their technical expertise. And that is what sells in this industry/hobby. It is not rare for the fastest guys to sound like idiots if you ask them about anything more than power, rollout, or tweak. That's just a fact that is painful to stomach for anyone that hopes a superior intellect will fill a void in skill. And I am NOT implying that is the case with anyone who has posted here. A few of the fastest racers around aren't even the primary mechanics! Nuts to me, but it speaks volumes about talent at the wheel. Which, by the way, is why track data is so tough to put stock in. Yeah, it's what counts, but there are so many variables, that it would drive an engineer crazy to consider. Often a game of numbers. How about that if you don't get a good start in a 5minute race, you're done. Period. SMC, Kinetix, Pro-Match. It doesn't matter. Chris Doseck won the Cleveland a few years back, and Trinity had a field day with that. But if you saw the race, you would have seen that it wasn't horsepower that put Chris in the winners circle. It was maintaining consistency while the hottest cars out there lost it.

These boards are here so that intelligent discussion can take place. It's best when it's free of bashing, but people's defensive nature usually propels things to escalate to that level. Personally, I believe that the truth always gets exposed given time, and efforts to stiffle that process are often a substantial indicator of hidden agendas.

Is that happening here? I don't think so, but to have a post here for a product, is to advertise. Regardless of intent, that is what it does. Advertising breeds sales, and sales persons face all types of customers. Skilled salespersons can effectively address any and all questions. There are still questions here that were poorly addressed, and perhaps, poorly formulated to begin with. Here is mine:

Can SMC, in all it's successes, turn to a friend, contracted thinker, or otherwise to correlate the increased track performance to a change in chemical or physical reactions taking place within their newly matched cells?

A "No" will suffice as an answer, but it is unfair to ridicule someone who seeks that kind of understanding from a top level company.

A "Yes", followed by the explanation would do wonders for anyone who is on the fence. This would further SMC's claim to being the frontrunners time and time again. Again, personally, I see no logical reason that this information, should not be shared with consumers.

Let's cool off just a bit.:D


Jack Rimer 06-13-2004 06:46 AM

I don't see why it is relative to this conversation to break down what happens internally to a cell to understand that it creates a performance advantage. The genius's argueing their points can't even get the facts correct. The batteries pull much more than 30 amps under load, not less. Heat does impact the performance of the cells. That is why we control the room temperature when we match so that the heat does not INFLATE the numbers. Yes, the numbers actually go up with heat. Now when you can logically and scientifically explain how you come to the conclusion that an R/C car pulls less than 30 amps yet still drains a battery with over 400 seconds of capacity in 5 minutes I will give validity to your views. Until then, get the facts straight before you post.

JayBee 06-13-2004 09:49 AM


Originally posted by Jack Rimer
I don't see why it is relative to this conversation to break down what happens internally to a cell to understand that it creates a performance advantage. The genius's argueing their points can't even get the facts correct. The batteries pull much more than 30 amps under load, not less. Heat does impact the performance of the cells. That is why we control the room temperature when we match so that the heat does not INFLATE the numbers. Yes, the numbers actually go up with heat. Now when you can logically and scientifically explain how you come to the conclusion that an R/C car pulls less than 30 amps yet still drains a battery with over 400 seconds of capacity in 5 minutes I will give validity to your views. Until then, get the facts straight before you post.
FYI - we all know internally something happens within cells, but if some posters want scientific answers - WHAT'S YOUR BEEF :weird:

this is nuts, people having problems with these guys because these guys are not accepting answers that they feel are not addressing the questions they pose.
:weird:
an insightful scientific answer often goes A LONG way than incohesive, unscientific, beat around the bush rhetoric.

haywyre 06-13-2004 10:23 AM

35 amp
 
There is a reason for the maddness the higher the discharge the more cells you get at the same runtime, hence better packs to sell. My matching experiance showed me that I got more high end cells at 30a than I did at 20a. You racers should look at charge time, it's more important than run time. If you have a 5 cells that take in 3000M and a cell that is 3400M that cell will not charge completely even though they all read 400 sec. and that will hurt your runtime and voltage. haywyre

Lonestar 06-13-2004 10:27 AM


Originally posted by Jack Rimer
I don't see why it is relative to this conversation to break down what happens internally to a cell to understand that it creates a performance advantage.
I do. That's the whole point. We know there are lots of criticable statements made in every rc car media (especially in the mags... think Trinity) about all sorts of supposedly technical advances that are just marketing bogus. It works, because everybody think that a 0.1% hp increase will make them win races, and because people like to think that money can buy speed. Sometimes, these technology breakthroughs are bogus (think CVEC, super lubricants, Sanyo 3300HV's, ...) sometimes they're real (think battery matching, rebuildable stockers, turbo plugs). I think the best way to convince people actually is to explain why they're not bogus. And if you're a good technician, you should even be able to explain to your non-specialized interlocutors what's happening, in simple words. I like to learn stuff. Reading that Josh and Ralph kicked everybody else's butts with 35A cells is no new stuff. They've been kicking everybody else's butts ever since I can remember about racing rc cars (1986... ralph TQ'ed the 8th scale onroad worlds in Austin in 1989 if I'm not mistaken).

Why can't anybody please explain what's going on in these friggin' cells when they're discharged 3 times at 35A instead of 30A? How does this edge remain after the pack's been run in miscellaneous categories a certain number of times???


[i]The genius's argueing their points can't even get the facts correct. The batteries pull much more than 30 amps under load, not less. Heat does impact the performance of the cells. That is why we control the room temperature when we match so that the heat does not INFLATE the numbers. Yes, the numbers actually go up with heat. Now when you can logically and scientifically explain how you come to the conclusion that an R/C car pulls less than 30 amps yet still drains a battery with over 400 seconds of capacity in 5 minutes I will give validity to your views. Until then, get the facts straight before you post. [/B]
Who said the opposite? We all agree... Obviously our mod sedans pull more than 35A... 3800mAh in 5 minutes is equivalent to an average of 3.8*12=45.6A... Why don't we match our mod sedan batteries batteries at 45A?

I'm not saying SMC is lying to anybody, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't because the RC business is tough enough with BS (once again, think about how people consider Trinity). I would just like to understand what's going on... Is that forbidden?

Later

Paul

Lonestar 06-13-2004 10:32 AM

Re: 35 amp
 

Originally posted by haywyre
There is a reason for the maddness the higher the discharge the more cells you get at the same runtime, hence better packs to sell. My matching experiance showed me that I got more high end cells at 30a than I did at 20a. You racers should look at charge time, it's more important than run time. If you have a 5 cells that take in 3000M and a cell that is 3400M that cell will not charge completely even though they all read 400 sec. and that will hurt your runtime and voltage. haywyre
interesting... I thought cells that discharged the same also charged the same... (nothing's created, nothing's lost, everything's transformed... not sure if that's the correct translation)...

so you're saying two cells with very similar discharge numbers could peak at different times when charged at the same current?

Later
Paul

Danny/SMC 06-13-2004 12:51 PM

Re: 35 amp
 

Originally posted by haywyre
There is a reason for the maddness the higher the discharge the more cells you get at the same runtime, hence better packs to sell. My matching experiance showed me that I got more high end cells at 30a than I did at 20a. You racers should look at charge time, it's more important than run time. If you have a 5 cells that take in 3000M and a cell that is 3400M that cell will not charge completely even though they all read 400 sec. and that will hurt your runtime and voltage. haywyre

In theory charge time should be a part of matching but if you put todays cells on the same machine you would see that the charge time is very similar when cells have the same runtime.

I have also noticed that machines will fluctuate a bit on the charge rate affecting the charge time. unless you would use 1 machine it would be hard to compare charge times.

Danny/SMC 06-13-2004 01:03 PM

For all of you who are expecting a real technical answer as to why 35 amps is better than 30 I can't really give you one.

All I can say is that when you load a cell at a higher amp rate it seems to improve the perfromance of the pack proven by our track testing.

I really don't know what else to say. I'm also not going to claim that you will see a major difference. This is just a step forward in trying to improve cell matching. It's simply a matter of evolution.

When I got CE to change the IR number from relative to Actual I had similar debates on forums such as these. Many had negative things to say. Now if you look at it 5 years later it seems that most companies have switched over to it.

I can tell you why some companies may not want to change to 35 right away. They will wait and see just like the Actual IR. once they see it's accepted they will switch over to it. The majority of the TM-4's out there can only go to 30 amps. This is why it took us time to go to 35 amps we needed more machines.


I believe someone mentioned that the stock packs will cost more than before for the same cells. We only increased the retail by 5.00 but increased the minimum voltage spec to 1.16 which will roughly be 1.175 + at 30 amps.


In the end you can keep buying packs matched at whatever rate you prefer. We will still offer 30 amp matched packs.

Steve Weiss 06-13-2004 01:23 PM

Heh

Some more interesting points being made here and there...

I have my own $0.02 I'd like to offer up but I think it would be best to just sit back and watch some more...

Lonestar 06-13-2004 01:44 PM

Danny,

thanks for your honest and cold-headed feedback. I think this is what this thread needed until now.

Later,
Paul

ProMaX 06-13-2004 04:03 PM

Having read right through this thread (and yes it did take some reading and digesting!) nothing came to me such as "WOW!!! 35A matched packs amazing I must go out and buy some NOW!!".

I have got to know many matchers over the years, the clever and innovative and dedicated people who in many cases are/were also racers. True they know a lot from their learned experience gained from years of matching batteries, BUT they're not the clever people who design the batteries or do the R&D at a company such as Sanyo or GP and so cannot offer the in-depth technical explanations called for by some. YES they do know a lot more than those of us who simply buy the batteries charge them and race with them. A few posters on here have asked valid questions about various points of contention that have been made and will continue to be made regardless of the cells in use (be they 3300, 3600 or 3900 etc in future) and the rate they are discharged at or the method employed to cycle and match and zap them etc.

My cynical/pragmatic view (shared by a few others it appears) and not as a 'for' or 'against' 35A matching, by myself as a seeker of truth is...

Regardless of if it's better in any way, the fact that it's available will mean that SMC team drivers (or any other 35A matched cell supplier) will win with 35A matched cells not because they're using 35A matched cells but simply because they've been winning with 30A matched cells because they're good drivers with a good car/ESC/motor/battery package. Because they win other lesser drivers will think they will win as well and will buy into 35A. Other battery matching companies will see this happeneing and will follow the lead and adopt 35A. The argument will always be "drivers win with 35A so they must be better". If no drivers win at top level with 35A then they are most likely not better. The top companies have the best drivers signed up so they will win with whatever equipment they use.

The irony of it all is that if 35A cells are 'seen to be better' its all rather convenient that it favours the money making aspect of cell matching... obvioulsy higher throughput at 35A than 30A. As cell capacities increase every year matchers have to maintain their production output to maintain their income. In fact they have to increase output to increase sales to make more $'s... you get the picture!! The only way to match more cells (that have to be fully discharged to get the matching data) is to discharge at a higher current or expand the business, (buy a bigger building and more matching hardware). And as a result of 35A matching maybe the cells don't last as long at peak performance, what with being zapped and cooked etc, but hey who cares (who cares that we all end up having to buy packs more often)... 35A matched packs ARE better coz SMC et al say they are!!! They may truly believe it, and they may actually really be better, or... ?? The average Joey probably doesn't even read things or here, and will buy what his LHS or his racing friends say is best, so sales will be maintained despite what the tech-heads may write or say.

Well, that's how I see it, but then who am I to know the truth or really know the answers?

Jack Rimer 06-13-2004 07:21 PM

Would anyone argue that 30 amps is not better than 20 amps at accurately determining cell performance on the track? Would it then stand to reason that anything over 30 amps would be a better indicator than 30 since cars pull well over 30 amps? If we had the equipment to test at 40 or 50 we would do it because the closer you can get to on track performance, the better the batteries can be matched. Will anyone please respond to refute this rationale? We have been trying to make this point for 4 pages, but I don't believe anyone cares. I am not a GP engineer so I can not explain what makes a cell behave like it does. However, since Gold Peak routinely calls Danny for information and sends us test cells from time to time, I would say they have a certain degree of faith in SMC's ability, not to mention an amount of curiousity themselves about what makes these batteries perform in this environment. They can't explain why zapping works- does that mean, then, that it doesn't? If anyone should know shouldn't it be the manufacturer of the cell?

HOOPD1 06-13-2004 08:22 PM

I dont think any real technical answers are going to come from this thread,because as Danny and Jack have both said they dont have one.

My opinion for what its worth is its just another way to pick out better team cells for the sponsered drivers of SMC and at the same time pass down a few all be it very few better cells to us humans.I can accept that

20 amps used to be the norm.Then I think it was Pro Match went to 25 and everyone thought it was great,then up to 30amps still no complaints.
Now all of the sudden 35 amps makes no sense???????????

I see it as progression,if there was none we would still be running stick packs and gommies.
:nod:

rayhuang 06-13-2004 08:37 PM

I promised myself I wouldnt post one more thing, but I will one more time. I think the bone of contention here is tha fact that neither you or Danny will discuss at a molecular level the chemical changes that occur from a higher discharge rate and the resultant increase in performance.

The mere idea that increased performance could be realized BECAUSE of a higher dis rate alone is inconceivable to some.

So it seems that you and Danny and your team drivers and representatives could conceivably post till your blue in the face-but the needs of the few would outweight the need for information of the many. Without using words like Crystallization, Polarization, Re-alignment of charged plates....its all for not.

This thread is a no-win situation as you said-4-pages and many are not convinced.

I dont blame them for wanting to know "WHY" I'd like to know why too-but lets get serious-motor tuning and battery zapping are immersed in a sort of black Magic as it is. Experience plays as great a role as a degree in Chemical engineering.

EAMotorsports 06-13-2004 08:54 PM

How about a quote from a TV comercial? "WHY ASK WHY?"

Who really give a rats azz as long as it works!!! For the non believers go run what ever you feel is best for you. Danny and Jack are not engineers.....But I am sure they feel the same way. If it works so be it....They dont need a scientific answer just on track performance. Do we race matchers? Or motor Dyno's? Nope....

The only machine I trust when it comes to racing is the STOPWATCH...because lap times dont lie!!!

EA

P.S. IF anyone wants to every borrow a pack of my "Team cells" then stop by and see me at the track...I will loan anyone a pack as long as they give me their honost opinion when they are done with em!!

JDM_DOHC_SiR 06-13-2004 08:58 PM


Originally posted by EAMotorsports


P.S. IF anyone wants to every borrow a pack of my "Team cells" then stop by and see me at the track...I will loan anyone a pack as long as they give me their honost opinion when they are done with em!!

Ummm:sweat: ... Hows about FED EX to Japan:p ;)
Just kiddin' Eric:D

-Dave:sneaky:

Tempest2000 06-13-2004 09:41 PM

I can see where 35 or above amp discharging is beneficial when used for 6 cell touring mod. It is close to the actual avg. amp draw that the pack will see over a 5 min. race.

Now think about this.

Let's say in mod 12th we average 27.5 amps over 8 minutes. (This is a guestimate based on...
440 (run time on a 4 cell pack @ 30 amps)/480 (8 min race)*30 amps = avg. of 27.5 amps.

Wouldn't mod 12th be better suited to a discharge rate of 28 amps or so?

Taking other classes into account such as stock 12th or stock touring where we don't use up the battery in a race, it would stand to reason that they are averaging even less than 30 amps also.

My question is... would it make more sense to match based on avg. discharges rates of specific applications if we are truly wanting to make as close of an accurate representation of how a cell will perform for a given class???

This is all just in theory and please don't get stirred up about it. I realize it would cause much more work for the matchers... I was just wondering if this made any sense to Danny, Jack, SMC being they have done so much testing.
Thanks,

Michael


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