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-   -   35 Amp Graded cells from SMC coming soon (https://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/42469-35-amp-graded-cells-smc-coming-soon.html)

gotyournumber 06-10-2004 08:22 PM

Does anyone think the new 35 amp discharge rate is just to mixup the runtime and voltage for the average racer. Now it seems like it is harder for battery matchers to sell 1.16-1.17 volt batteries i don't think runtime is much a issue for the average racer. Changing the discharge rate will for a time boost sales of so so batterys for a few months. What will it really do for the average racer.

ottoman 06-10-2004 08:28 PM

Lets see.... Someone (Danny) who is a well respected Matcher spends a lot of time and money testing a new matching method and feels it is a improvement over his old method. Or some guy no one has heard of, saying its not better. With out any testing to backup his points... boy I dont know who I would have more faith in:lol:

Entropy 06-10-2004 08:28 PM

LOL, I dunno why everyone's worked up over 35amp discharged cells.

Its still the same cells you're buying man. Just with different numbers.

For a moment I thought this was a "new cell" thread.

RecordBreaker 06-10-2004 08:30 PM


Originally posted by EAMotorsports
Well if your so "versed" then why dont you give us YOUR reason that it is NOT better? Im sure myself and a few others might find it entertaining.

EA

Oh come on, EA your the one that is pitching them, not me. I just want to know why they are better and we should buy them. In my original post I replied to someone (don't recall if it was you) who was ripping on other matchers because 'they don't offer numbers produced by a 35 amp discharge' on their cells. That irritated me because it makes it appear that cells matched by 30 amps are inferior when in all actuality they are NOT, they may even be BETTER.

I already gave you a good reason - Higher rate discharging can lead to excessive heat generation and decrease the discharging effciency making the numbers on your nice new SMC packs less accurate then ones created by a 30 amp discharge process. Even if the cells are discharged within an ambient temperature range of -10c to +50c it is quite possible the added five amp amperage rate will push the cell to exceed their nominal operating temperature of 55c. Most racers motors will never pull even 30 amps.. so I ask again, why are SMC cells matched at 35 amps better?

RecordBreaker 06-10-2004 08:33 PM


Originally posted by gotyournumber
Does anyone thing think the new 35 amp discharge rate is just to mixup the runtime and voltage for the average racer. Now it seems like it is harder for battery matchers to sell 1.16-1.17 volt batteries i don't think runtime is much a issue for the average racer. Changing the discharge rate will for a time boost sales of so so batterys for a few months. What will it really do for the average racer.
Exactly my point gotyournumber! To me it simply appears SMC is simply trying to shake up the battery maket with cells touted as better, but no actual reason why.. plus us racers can't accurately compared their numbers to cells matched at 30 amps!

The Black Kat 06-10-2004 08:36 PM


Originally posted by ottoman
Lets see.... Someone (Danny) who is a well respected Matcher spends a lot of time and money testing a new matching method and feels it is a improvement over his old method. Or some guy no one has heard of, saying its not better. With out any testing to backup his points... boy I dont know who I would have more faith in:lol:
Well, if the man has a point. LISTEN TO HIM

Danny decided to go 35A because the extra strain on the cells could be used to determine how good they are a little bit better. RB says that extra strain will damage them.

How simple could that be?

Both sides have legitamite points.

EAMotorsports 06-10-2004 08:39 PM

Well Danny doesnt get on here much so I guess Korgae will give you an answer when he visits next. But they may not have an answer that your looking for.

You would think that the cells would get hotter at 35 amps. Try discharging a coulpe of packs at 30 and 35 amps and see which ones get hotter. The difference may suprise you (or lack of difference). Plus if they are done at 35 amps then on average you would be discharging them around 50 seconds less so the cells wouldnt be hot as long. Not answering for SMC just my observations from my 17 years of racing.

EA

RecordBreaker 06-10-2004 08:41 PM


Originally posted by ottoman
Lets see.... Someone (Danny) who is a well respected Matcher spends a lot of time and money testing a new matching method and feels it is a improvement over his old method. Or some guy no one has heard of, saying its not better. With out any testing to backup his points... boy I dont know who I would have more faith in:lol:
What makes me :lol: is how you obviously believe everything that is put in front of you.. and don't take the time to really sit back and make sense of what is being said!

ottoman 06-10-2004 08:42 PM


Originally posted by The Black Kat
Well, if the man has a point. LISTEN TO HIM

Danny decided to go 35A because the extra strain on the cells could be used to determine how good they are a little bit better. RB says that extra strain will damage them.

How simple could that be?

Both sides have legitamite points.

Yes but SMC is one of the premier matching companies.... who is the other guy? The only way to prove it one way or the other is by actual testing.... which of the two spent 9 months testing?:rolleyes:
Theory is great but the only way to decide between two opposing theory's is to test them

RecordBreaker 06-10-2004 08:43 PM


Originally posted by EAMotorsports

You would think that the cells would get hotter at 35 amps. Try discharging a coulpe of packs at 30 and 35 amps and see which ones get hotter. The difference may suprise you (or lack of difference). Plus if they are done at 35 amps then on average you would be discharging them around 50 seconds less so the cells wouldnt be hot as long. Not answering for SMC just my observations from my 17 years of racing.

EA

Better point EA, the point about the cells not being hot for as long does make some sort of sense. I do give credit where credit is do!! I like good discussions as well! :)

EAMotorsports 06-10-2004 08:50 PM

I like good discussions as well....Not mad by any means here. But honostly I cant tell much of a difference when I cycle my packs at 30 and 35 amps as far as temp range. I am going threw my stuff now in prep for a race next week in Las Vegas I will cycle a pack at 30 and check the temp and do one at 35 and check it as well and post the results here. Guessing I would say less than 5 degrees difference.

But I do know that GP's do not like anything below 30 amps at all!! And everything that Danny has sent me at 35 amps is seeming to hold up longer as far as cycle numbers and performance and are my best packs. I cant give you a scientific answer just experience.

EA

rayhuang 06-10-2004 08:58 PM

RB-I cannot debate the issue with you as I am a horrible debater, but I re-iterate a few points. Danny wants to make the best batteries he can. Maybe Jack is mre interetsed in the bottom line :lol: sorry jack!!!

After all the testing has been done on dirt, oval and on-road-he wouldnt be doing the 35 amp stuff if it either hurts the company and much more imortantly isnt faster than 30 amp batteries.

And-yes there is more to 35 amp discharging then just discharging at 35 amps. Cells that are good 35 amps cells can perform dramatically different over 5 or 8 minutes than a poorly performing cell does at 35 amps. Now RB -this is where I am a horrible debater as you will want to know why they perform dramatically different than 30 amp stuff in a techno babble sort of way-and I just cannot do it!! Dont got the lingo!!

RecordBreaker 06-10-2004 09:04 PM


Originally posted by EAMotorsports
I like good discussions as well....Not mad by any means here. But honostly I cant tell much of a difference when I cycle my packs at 30 and 35 amps as far as temp range. I am going threw my stuff now in prep for a race next week in Las Vegas I will cycle a pack at 30 and check the temp and do one at 35 and check it as well and post the results here. Guessing I would say less than 5 degrees difference.

But I do know that GP's do not like anything below 30 amps at all!! And everything that Danny has sent me at 35 amps is seeming to hold up longer as far as cycle numbers and performance and are my best packs. I cant give you a scientific answer just experience.

EA

I'm going to make a call tomorrow and ask my friend if I can borrow his TM 4/35. If he says yes I can gonna order a few bulk, unmatched GP cells from a matcher. Match a few at 30 amps, a few at 35 taking temperature readings with temperature gauge at the end of each matching cycle. I'll post my results.

ottoman 06-10-2004 09:10 PM

There is a good post on the Fukuyama thread about 35 amp discharging and how they tested it and why they decided not to go this way at this time. Its nice to read posts based on testing and not just theories about why things wont work.

Entropy 06-10-2004 09:11 PM


Originally posted by RecordBreaker
I'm going to make a call tomorrow and ask my friend if I can borrow his TM 4/35. If he says yes I can gonna order a few bulk, unmatched GP cells from a matcher. Match a few at 30 amps, a few at 35 taking temperature readings with temperature gauge at the end of each matching cycle. I'll post my results.
Remember to keep them in a temp. controlled environment. Coz I've had cells charge up to 400mah more just by charging them in a cool environment.

rayhuang 06-10-2004 09:17 PM


Originally posted by Entropy
Remember to keep them in a temp. controlled environment. Coz I've had cells charge up to 400mah more just by charging them in a cool environment.
YOu also have to warm-up the TM machines by partially charging and discharging some cells.

Also make sure all cells have been dicharged on a tray and have cooled down. depending on how old the cells are in a fresh case-the residual charge left in them can be from 15 to 45 seconds at 30 amps. All these things affect the numbers you get on the TM's.

rangulo 06-10-2004 09:37 PM

RB-I think you have a valid point. Temp has a lot of affect on the equipment that is used to match these batteries. I am a firm beleiver in the good name of SMC but they are a business who needs revenue growth and marketing a product in a different way could increase these sales numbers.

I am not sure that SMC is the biggest matcher or the most accurate,but they use the same equipment that all the other popular matchers use. They also buy the cells from the same manufacturer. In racing the best guy gets the best. I, as well as many have seen the best running these cells and still dump. Trinity gives the best to there drivers as well as SMC gives the best to there drivers... The hobby shops dont see the cells those pros use. So how can this new system provide a different level of quality cells than the ones hobby shops already receive?

By the way I have also in the past run SMC and they have always been good. I just think your dressing up a product which is still the same and selling it with a new label...

rice 06-10-2004 09:48 PM

question

in smc it says 30 amp discharge rate if im using only a 20 amp discharge what will be the effect on the cell or pack? does it affect the performance of the batt.

gee-dub 06-10-2004 11:24 PM

one more question - the whole premise (at least as i've read it) for the extra 5 amps on the discharge is to "weed out bad cells". exactly how many cells are we talking about here that are ok at 30, but 'bad' at 35? and what exactly is making the cell 'bad'? do they start to vent at 35 and not 30 (in which case 40 must definately be better, and 45 better yet).

cr250 06-11-2004 04:58 AM

........

rayhuang 06-11-2004 07:31 AM

RB and cr250-Are you sure that Heat is really the enemy of NiMh in terms of performance?

How warm do you get your cells charging before racing and how warm are they after running a 5-minute heat with an 8x1 in it? I get mine 125 to 140 before every race and they are almost as fast after 7 months as when they were new. They certainley arent damaged.

I think everyone who states SMC is doing this for marketing is W-R-O-N-G!!!

And I think everyone who claims heat in GP batteries does not affect performnace in a positive way is regurgatating something they heard two years ago and wont open there eyes to new developments-like 35 amp discharging.

Read all the posts-theres been enough reasons given why 35amp is better. I'll post what Josh Cyrul said about them here in a second. But of course it will be dismissed by some as more "Pro" mumbo jumbo!!!

I have a degree in Hospitality Management and I too can understand techincal information and I also know when something is just plain old faster in the real world too.

rayhuang 06-11-2004 07:33 AM

Josh on 35 amp SMC batteries
 
JOsh Cyrul jedi - I like the 35 amp packs especially in sedan and and form of stock racing. They usually have more punch in stock but in mod there is a very noticable difference. For the carpet nats they sent packs that were done at 30 instead of the 35 like we had been running since the beginning of the year. While the packs tested the same and ran good on the track - the ones that were matched at 35 did have more power and it equaled about 2-3 seconds of improvement on a 5 min run.... In 1/12 mod it's a toss up since running a consistant pace is always the best, but in that case I still used the 35 amp packs but just charged them softer (5 amps) to get that more level voltage for the 8 minute run....

cr250 06-11-2004 08:28 AM

........

rayhuang 06-11-2004 08:43 AM

cr250-nice post!! Good info!! Not arguing-what temperature is excessive? 150 and up?? HIgher?

cr250 06-11-2004 09:09 AM

........

TexRacer 06-11-2004 09:15 AM

CR250 maybe I can help.

The reasons behind 35 amp matching via SMC is closer tolerences in the match itself and also it weeds out weaker cells.Mod Oval and Mod Sedan put alot of abuse on cells and for the same reason everyone went from a industry standard of 20 to 30 was for a closer match it also weeded out the weaker cells that couldnt handle that amp level on the matcher being in racing it can go ALOT higher than that.
Danny is VERY smart when it comes to batteries.I helped introduce his cells to america in the late 90's in the southern and coastal area's of america.I had ran every matcher's cells out there including from across seas finding his cells were simply stronger with the same #'s than anything I could test in a car and on the track.
The BEST thing about SMC's cells is that they hold their Zap and last a long time.But when Danny moves to 35 it's for performance reasons and has NOTHING to do with advertising reasons.I can prove this wrong REALLY quick.
Most stores wont have the trained person behind the counter to explain why SMC's #'s are lower due to 35 instead of 30 amp matching and Im sure they wont have a comparrision chart on the top of the counter.So it's NOT for advertising reasons but for performance reasons and a closer match.
I hope this helps.
Les

ghuber 06-11-2004 09:32 AM


Originally posted by TexRacer
CR250 maybe I can help.

I can prove this wrong REALLY quick.

Les

I have no made an official dertmination as to whether we will match cells at 35 amps but some good points have been made here.

Taken from SMC's own website:

"Do not charge GP 3300 Cells with a cheap low end charger. these chargers can lead to Over heating of the cell and can result in injury or damage."

We will be doing some testing of our own shorty. I'm sure the GP cells can handle a 35 amp discharge rate, but I'm not sure how open this industry will be to this change. It will be very hard to compare cells matched at 30 amps with cells matched at 35 amps which will lead to much confusion about which pack is really better.

We will be watching to see how the industry reacts.

Good luck SMC!


rayhuang 06-11-2004 09:34 AM

cr250-yup-got a nice proffesional Exergen temp gun!!

Yes-I have two tm-4's sitting in my office here at work and yes--at 30 amps and 0.90 cut-off they are Red-hot!! YOu pop it out of the holder and put it down as fast as you can!!!

But wouldn't that then mean that 30 amp discharge is already too damaging for a cell? And if so-then shouldn' the industry go back to 20 amp?

TexRacer-what you staed about a closer match was running around my head but wouldnt pop out-thanks for reminding me of that. I used to many matchers on a daily basis, but havent talked about matching in a long while and I had forgot that part of the puzzle.

Ray

cr250 06-11-2004 09:34 AM

........

cr250 06-11-2004 09:48 AM

........

Korgae 06-11-2004 11:02 AM

Wow lots of responce.

History repeats itself.. when we were the first to go to 30 amps the same thing happened, same comments same closed minded thinking.

and as History will repeat itself in a year everyone will be familiar with 35 amp matching.

first off, lets address the "load of the cell" for CR250 and Record Breaker.

Record Breaker made a comment that a Sedan can not pull 30 amps therefore their is no need to match or cycle at 30 amps.

We know for a fact that during racing, cars far exceed the 30 amp mark, I can not remember who did the test to record this ( it was in Japan and I think it was a speed control company) but the average a sedan pulls in mod is around 45 amps with peaks of 75 amps.

2nd point) if a cell is is rated @ 410 seconds @ 30 amps. and cycles out to lets say 400 for this debate. You claim a car doesn't pull 30 amps, why is it possible to dump during a 5 minute run (300 seconds) ?? where does the extra 100 seconds go? you might argue the fact that a motor as it heats up will become more inefficient, I agree but lets be real here, 19 turns are almost capable of dumping these days. not to mention that motor tech has had to catch up to Battery tech within the last year, the new Orion Motor is made to run cooler and more efficient yet it is still dumpable.

Why do our dynos. read past 30 amps? Why does CE offer a turbo 45 dyno?

based on your theory and your welcome to it, you should buy your own batteries and follow the manufactures specs in order to not over heat the cell as you believe it causes damage. Do you know what the manufactures specs are? charge @ 1C and discharge @ 3.3C.

In English, thats charge @ 1 amp and discharge @ 3.3 amps. for maximum life ( 500 cycles) Sounds old skool to me, maybe create a league of Mabuchi motors and overnight chargers.

For years every matcher has pushed the so called max limits placed on cells by their manufacture. for example we all charge @ 4-7 amps. this far exceeds the manufactures recommendation of 1C or less.. the GP cell is the first cell in the hobby industry where the manufacture says the cell can exceed 30 amps ( 58 to be exact for a momentary time) ( this according to GP Themselves)

the cell also carries a temp range of 50C (about 130F)

The reason we are doing 35 amp matching is not marketing or hype! if it was you would have seen huge full page ad's months ago. SMC is built around performance, our loyal customers know that.

a lot of this has to revolve around sanyos new cell. We were the first to step up and say we will not match it.

here is a bit of background.

we have been testing the theory of 35 amps for a while but the proof really came when we received the sample Sanyo cell. ( 3600)

here is why: (this is from a e-mail Danny sent me.)

The IR is .6 to .8 higher on the Sanyo cell so this means when you load up the cell at a higher rate it will have more voltage drop. With the current TM-4 we can only compare from 30 to 35 amps but I would have to say at a higher rate the difference would be even greater.


Example:

GP cell @ 30 amps: 437-1.161-3.0
GP cell @ 35 amps: 373-1.144-3.0


Sanyo @ 30 amps: 447-1.158-3.5
Sanyo @ 35 amps: 380-1.136-3.6

Note the change in AIR. ( its higher on the Sanyo [email protected])



***** End of e- mail*******

Now we can see how much the AIR moved on the Sanyo cell, on this particular GP cell it did not, but because every cell is not the same, we choose to believe that going to 35 amps will show a difference , this will allow us to "weed" out weaker cells for the Pro series, This will make your packs stay stronger longer.


someone asked what happens to a bad cell, first off we call them bad because we are perfectionists. looking for the best of the best. they really are not bad.. as in they do not work. Bad means the AIR will shoot up higher or the voltage is a bit lower then that particular grade we are looking for.

The Surge guy has quoted a bit from our page, lets clear that up as well. We posted that becuase we have reason to beleive that not all chargers react the same with the GP cell. We have long had a list of chargers that we approve and feel safe recommending them to our custoemrs based on our own testing.

recently their has been a few cases where very cheap chargers ( $30-$50) have somehow over charged the packs to a point where they blow up. that statement on our page is not intended for the racer it is intended for the newbie or novice.
Its a safty warning to all battery users, Hey Surge did you know that? where is your warning to your customers?


I hope this clears things up a bit, I want to thank Ray and Eric and everyone else who continue to believe in us and our testing.

thanks

Korgae

SMC.

P.S. I have told Danny about this Thread.

Danny/SMC 06-11-2004 11:18 AM

First of all I would like to thank all of you who believe in me and have understood why were going to match at 35 amps.

For those who think it's a gimmick and a marketing scheme you should be pleased to know that we will still offer 30 amp matched packs.

The new 35 amp series is intended for the serious racer who wants that little extra.

Before I decided to release the 35 amp packs I wanted to make sure it made a difference. My first tests with 35 amps were done when we used the RC-2400 the results from our team was good. Now that we have a good NiMh cell with the GP3300 we started testing 35 amp and once again our racers liked them so we decided to introduce them.

There is no other needs to prove why the 35 amp pack will be a bit better than the a 30 amp pack. If our team drivers say it's better that is all that counts. Nothing beats actual track testing. Were not racing TM-4's or temp guns.

We had to buy a bunch of new machines to be able to keep up with the demand so it took us a bit longer to release them but I think the customer will be pleased with them.

Steve Weiss 06-11-2004 11:47 AM

Very scientific thread we have going on here ;)

I was thinking of going to see a movie today but why when I can stay here and be entertained all day for simply the cost of electricity!

:)

FYI, juding by what I've seen and tested (hey, I work for Novak) I'd estimate peak (NOT CONSTANT) current draw from "hot" modified motors to be well over 100 amps ;)

Jack Rimer 06-11-2004 12:24 PM

The reasons for coming out with 35 amp matching have nothing to do with cycle times or sales gimmicks or any other hidden agendas. It appears to work well on the track so we are going in that direction. Do you think it is fun paying for a load of new machines, new boxes, promotional material, new stickers, and adding part numbers? No. We have enough orders and interest in our product to keep a 2-3 week backlog. We don't need a lot of new business, but if we find a performance improvement we must offer it to the public and take advantage of the opportunity before someone else does. It is business, but it is based on a practical performance improvement. A note to all detractors: think about it... we win the two biggest races of the year using these new packs. We are looking for validity to our theory that these new packs work. What more do we need? It made our decision very easy.

gearless 06-11-2004 02:51 PM

:p
Compared to some persons that have posted here I know nothing closer about betteries, or motors, but I believe in numbers.
Following the discussion, I run to my brothers house where he has more professional electronic and electric meters that I ever saw, and run just the following test:
How many amps my best 12 turn motor will pull ??
Amazing, in stall condition (like in a crash) as much as 170 amps !!!!
Acelerating hard from a dead spot between 70 to 100 amps, depending of tyre slip.
Running free wheel 18 amps !!

That's all I could measure with my brothers equipment.
So I believe that the 35 amps matched batteries will be better.

EAMotorsports 06-11-2004 04:01 PM

Good post Korgae, Danny and Jack..... Sorry I got so much stirred up!!!

EA

antoniop 06-11-2004 04:32 PM

Yeap,

When the guy said "scientific knowledge" I knew he was going down for a beating...

Maybe, just maybe he's running Mabuchi motors... Who knows...

It puzzles me when people with "scientific knowledge" do this kind of stuff.

And even back it up with "few guys pull 30A out of a pack" or "nominal temp is 55".

Geez... amazing :lol: :lol:

RecordBreaker 06-11-2004 05:23 PM

Okay guys say what you want, but nothing in this entire thread including danny's, or korgue's posts have made a believer out of me.. nor have you given anyone a solid reason technicial reason why these cells are better.. If they are, why aren't other large matchers like promatch and fukuyama jumping at the opportunity to match them at this rate as well??

Danny if you are so concerned with customer satisfaction, why don't you try follow others matchers leads and drop your prices! My LHS was selling a SMC 1.148 pack for $58!! That's simply rape when you can get the same thing for $29.95 from Kinetix! You are the most expensive matcher out of all as far as I can see!

RB

Korgae 06-11-2004 06:03 PM

RB,

Sounds like you are resistant to being a believer, that again is your choice. To be honest, I am guessing your not a SMC user as it is, and if you are worried about a few dollars at your local LHS. O wait a second do you shop at your LHS?? You mentioned Matchers that sell direct to end users, how does that help the hobby?

So let me get this clear, you are saying: we do not understand batteries, we only rely on marketing and gimmicks to sell our product, our team drivers (all of them) are wrong and our price is to high..... did I miss anything?

A show of hands that disagree...


you want to ask the questions but you wont answer them

As for the $$ thing, I think you will find that those matchers you spoke of would actually put more in their pocket at the end of the day. due to the fact that we allow distributors and shops to have a proper fair mark up. its easy and very profitable for matchers to sell direct to the end user.



I tell ya what, you have fun racing and we will continue to do the same as well.

Safe SX 06-11-2004 06:09 PM

Charging
 
With all the testing you guys have been doing has anyone had any feedback on zeroing your batteries for 3 days before recharging. Also has anyone tested the new cdr5000 futaba charger.


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