I'm building my first mini and have been trying to find a good setup all that I have found have been really lacking in detail I'm building an mo5 gold edition for small carpet track my main hang ups are which shock pistons oil wt and springs any help would be appreciated

The best way to compare is actual on track testing. Lap times and actual head to head racing between 2 cars relatively equal in set up. This was done in the test I mentioned in an earlier post. The B/L motor tested was the Novak 25.5 which is used in the VTA series. It was very close in performance to a stock Silvercan that anyone could buy off the shelf.

I've often wondered why some TCS decisions made. Some didn't make sense at first. However, when everything was factored in, including the commercial interests and relationships, the reasoning became clearer. I may be totally wrong here, but based on what I've seen in the past, The HW and ORCA systems won't be in the mix.

Since the topic is brushless
Quick question someone may care to answer
Tamiya has the Torque Tuned Motors (Listed at 25T)
The brushless I think everyone is talking about is 25.5T correct?
Is there any major differences between the two except for that additional half turn
the brushless' have internally?

There are lots of cheap rtr brushed speedos out there that can run a silvercan... The tekin fxr is way overkill for mini Racing. I run my mini with leftover speedos and motors from the other ready to run cars I had purchased years ago.
If you have been in the hobby for a while, then running a brushed mini is cheaper than BL by far, but if the length of the mains keeps getting longer, then BL will be cheaper in the long run if they legalize the cheap HW type systems... So far, I have not bought any esc or motor specifically for my mini. I am still using leftover speedos/motors, and won't ever go through all of them ever...

Scorpion,

You have PM.

I am a fan of the HW system, and it's been flawless, though I don't run it much now at the Tamiya test track.

Building a 25.5 car for kicks, and easier to switch over to a 21.5 that some groups allow.

Almost everything is different between the two motors, including (obviously) brush friction and resistance; armature vs stator resistance; magnetic field strength; magnetic field temperature coefficient; enclosed flux; and bearings. One can't use the number of turns to establish equivalence.

Were the gear ratios different?

I appreciate your point, but one of the (many) problems with on-track testing is it may only be valid for one track. I'd prefer to go by the numbers, matching peak power as closely as possible, and ensuring that each motor can be geared properly around that power peak.

The 25.5 brushless and silver can brushed might be very nicely matched on a tight course, but on a large track the 25.5 will be significantly slower in a straight line if the gear ratios are the same.

The UF1 guys run 21.5 brushless for parity with the silver can, and they seem satisfied with that. The Omaha Hobbyplex also runs 21.5 or silver can in their Mini class, and the cars are reasonably close in performance (and the track is BIG, at least for carpet).

Personally, I think we should forget about equivalence, and have everyone run the same motor. This has worked very well for VTA. In that case, 25.5 brushless is a good choice.

So if thats the case, why should we go out and have to invest in a new BL ESC as well as a new BL Motor then, why not just keep the Silvercans?
I know what you're gonna say
Well people know how to manipulate those motors, and I ask, there aren't
people out there who can manipulate the BLs?
There probably is, its just like those who know how to make a silvercan faster
Its their secret and they're not telling!

:flaming: Asbestos Suit on! Fire when ready Gridley!

Any motor can be tampered with... The real issue here is that the companies want to push their BL products even in the most basic Rc Car class, which is not fair to nobody when tamiya has not yet released their BL mini RTRs..... If they do release their BL minis and make all other BL systems illegal for tcs Racing, a lot of good racers will lose alot more money than if they had kept their silvercans, and waited for tcs to approve a BL system.....Just sayin.... Show me a tcs legal BL tamiya mini RTR first, then I'll consider switching. Until then, silvercan rules....

Keeping silver cans is another good possibility. That's what I'm running, and it does fine against 21.5 brushless motors. I just think the racing is better when everybody uses the same thing, whatever that might be. I also think that, regardless of a higher initial investment, a spec brushless motor ends up saving money.

And yes, brushless motors also have plenty of possibilities for "enhancement". I've thought of a few myself!

P.S. What's a Gridley?

Howard, good hearing for you again. Gear ratios were the same and messin' with the gearing is not something Mini guys do. You can't compare UF1 with mini cause of the ability to change gearing.

In spite of what you may believe the 25.5 B/L was equal in speed to a stock Silvercan, not significantly slower and in fact may have been a little faster in a straight line. The timing had to be increased significantly off the scale, but with the low gearing and light weight of a Mini, that was not a problem.

I understand your point about using the same motor, but Tamiya is a business and not a racing organization. Commercial and business relationships will always be factored into the decisions. Striving for equivalency, as you phrased it, is worthwhile. The Mini was designed around a Silvercan and seems to work best and is, IMO, most enjoyable at those speeds. If they decide to change, from my perspective, I'd like to see a Silvercan equivalent.

Thanks for the clarification. The rebuildable Novak motors do have infinitely adjustable timing (while the SS did not), so cranking it WAY up would do the trick. We just need to be careful about it!

Do you think the timing should still be restricted, as is done in VTA? It's pretty easy to check the free-running RPM, like what is done with the silver cans, as a limit. I'm concerned with the "more is better" mentality that might result in nuked ESCs and motors.

I'm in complete agreement with you. If the timing was restricted, 21.5 would be a better option. If the timing was pulled back a 21.5 would live nearly forever and there would be a wider range of motor options. Tech seems to be the problem, so the guys actually putting on the events seem to favor the unlimited timing route. Having never worked in tech, don't really know whether it is or isn't.

In any case, I'm not rebuilding any of my Silvercan cars into B/L cars yet. There's one B/L car in my stable fitted with a 21.5 on which the timing has been reduced 45+ degrees. In a straight line it's about as fast as a stock 'can, so will play with that for now.

Don't get me wrong I am all in favor of keeping silvercans and cannot understand why a company that does not sell bl setups would even consider making them a standard in their races?
Also since my son and myself are like most people these days racing on a limited budget, why should we be forced into buying a bl setup just to stay competitive with the teams? That is the basis of my orginal question. Can a 21.5 or 25.5 be competitive with a silvercan type (either a torque tuned or a speed tuned) actually both sold by tamiya and a lot cheaper (I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong) than a bl setup

Yes, absolutely. In all likelihood the 25.5 has somewhat lower peak power than the silver can, especially if its timing is advanced past the optimum point just to get the revs to match the silver can.

But that's just fine with me; I would still run the 25.5, even if the power is lower. It's one less thing to worry about, and it will last for years. When my silver can dies, I'll probably switch over to whatever brushless motor the other guys are using.

On the tracks where I've run my Mini, the silvercan is actually too much power. More power doesn't help when the front tires are already spinning most of the way down the straight!