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Old 09-15-2010, 11:26 AM   #9166
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Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
and what is there to prevent someone from moving the timing sticker before inspection? Until there is a way to tell if the sticker has been tampered with this is a rule that will be hard to enforce.
The sticker is placed in almost the same spot on every Ballistic, deviating by a single millimeter at most to account for manufacturer tolerances. Look at one Ballistic and you will see a visual reference between the sticker and the three long bolts that hold the can assembly together.

Just because one sticker is slightly more advanced than another, does not mean that motor will be faster. It simply means that motor's actual ZERO mark is slightly shifted, and since the sticker is keyed to the zero mark, and the sensor board position is measured by the sticker, all the Ballistics are timed identically. (<--- good idea on Novak's behalf)
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:56 AM   #9167
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Yes it was a good idea for Novak to do it that way. But people can also advance the Ballistic timing past the built in stop and get 5-10 more degrees of timing. Then the just move the sticker to show 45*or 0* of timing. If I remember right the end of the label is about 50* from the factory set location.
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Old 09-15-2010, 12:14 PM   #9168
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Yes it was a good idea for Novak to do it that way. But people can also advance the Ballistic timing past the built in stop and get 5-10 more degrees of timing. Then the just move the sticker to show 45*or 0* of timing. If I remember right the end of the label is about 50* from the factory set location.
Greg is trying to say if someone does exactly what you said, and you have a non-tampered with motor to compare, there will be an obvious visual difference. They should be almost identical in terms of sticker placement.
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Old 09-15-2010, 12:58 PM   #9169
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Ok, Now I see what Greg was saying. I was not visualizing the motor while I was talking about it.
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:49 PM   #9170
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We are fighting the 21.5 vs 25.5 fight at our track right now. It has not been fun and we have several racers that are threatening to leave.
I'm hoping that this is not a problem at my track. I'm making it a FDR rule for both motors with the understanding that the 21.5 would be slightly slower then the 25.5

21.5 kv rating 1800 25.5 kv rating 1550

tire dia PI fdr kv volts avg " per minute " hour " per ' ' per mile MPH
2.6 x 3.141592 / 4.8 / 1800 x 8 = 24504.4176 x 60 / 12 / 5280 = 23.20494
2.6 x 3.141592 / 4.0 / 1500 x 8 = 24504.4176 x 60 / 12 / 5280 = 23.20494


so if you make the 21.5 4.9 fdr then they should be slower for the class and give the new tech the advantage. people need to have the understanding that this allows them to run without having to buy new equipment and still allows those that play by the new rules to have the slight advantage.
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:52 PM   #9171
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sounds interesting, do you think you will get any push back about the 25.5 stuff having an advantage?
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:42 PM   #9172
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sounds interesting, do you think you will get any push back about the 25.5 stuff having an advantage?
well even the difference between ballistic and ss motors are different figuring you can go to 45 degrees on the ballistic and only 42 without milling the plastic (that I wouldn't know anything about) on the ss motors

so that being said. I may have to adjust the number and track layout would make a difference everytime. but just overall base numbers is sometimes enough to keep everybody happy. it's club racing for bench racing bragging rights. now national level you got to hold the line on the rules.
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:46 PM   #9173
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Originally Posted by nashrcracer View Post
I'm hoping that this is not a problem at my track. I'm making it a FDR rule for both motors with the understanding that the 21.5 would be slightly slower then the 25.5

21.5 kv rating 1800 25.5 kv rating 1550

tire dia PI fdr kv volts avg " per minute " hour " per ' ' per mile MPH
2.6 x 3.141592 / 4.8 / 1800 x 8 = 24504.4176 x 60 / 12 / 5280 = 23.20494
2.6 x 3.141592 / 4.0 / 1500 x 8 = 24504.4176 x 60 / 12 / 5280 = 23.20494


so if you make the 21.5 4.9 fdr then they should be slower for the class and give the new tech the advantage. people need to have the understanding that this allows them to run without having to buy new equipment and still allows those that play by the new rules to have the slight advantage.
So, if I understand this, you are limiting the 25.5 to 4.0 fdr. How far off the pace is that from what someone would be running with no fdr limit?

I really like this idea for our situation. We were talking about having a deadline for everyone to comply with the new rules but that forces people who would like to run 25.5 to wait till the deadline. This encourages folks to make the transition.
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:58 PM   #9174
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The 21.5 will still have more torque available. The 25.5 will have to be run super smooth. But I like the math behind it, makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:00 PM   #9175
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Originally Posted by nashrcracer View Post
well even the difference between ballistic and ss motors are different figuring you can go to 45 degrees on the ballistic and only 42 without milling the plastic (that I wouldn't know anything about) on the ss motors

so that being said. I may have to adjust the number and track layout would make a difference everytime. but just overall base numbers is sometimes enough to keep everybody happy. it's club racing for bench racing bragging rights. now national level you got to hold the line on the rules.
I thought this had already been gone over when they first came out and it still end up the same?
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:01 PM   #9176
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So, if I understand this, you are limiting the 25.5 to 4.0 fdr. How far off the pace is that from what someone would be running with no fdr limit?

I really like this idea for our situation. We were talking about having a deadline for everyone to comply with the new rules but that forces people who would like to run 25.5 to wait till the deadline. This encourages folks to make the transition.
My TC3s on most tracks like an FDR of 4.6 with a 21.5, so no big stretch there. I've had them to 5.2 with no heat issues. I think to get an honest comparison, we need to see a 5 minute temp on the 25.5 with an optimized FDR. I'm guessing lower than 4.0 might smoke the motor anyway.
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:04 PM   #9177
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
Been running a 25.5 motor in my VTA this summer against 21.5 VTA cars. I've been running a 4.1 FDR and I'm more than able to hold my own in the infield. However, the 21.5 definately has me beat on the straight. I was really surprised that the 25.5 really didn't feel slower other than the straight.
Found this a few pages back. I knew I had seen it recently. It answers my question and seems to support this idea pretty strongly.
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:20 PM   #9178
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We are fighting the 21.5 vs 25.5 fight at our track right now. It has not been fun and we have several racers that are threatening to leave.

Just a thought...instead of fighting over it, why not let those who want to remain with 21.5s race them in a vta ss class ?
Are these racers concerned about buying a 25.5T motor; we allow customers returning 21.5s to replace them with 25.5s for 46.00. You can also upgrade a SS Pro 21.5 to a Ballistic 25.5, which may be a better solution for racers wanting to compete in spec events requiring different winds (by installing the other stator.)

All of our BL escs are designed for optimum performance with the 30 degree factory timing in our motors. All of the BL motors that we have (ever) made have been set at this 30 degree timing mark; we do not recommend changing it. Once changed, there is no way for a user to re-set it to 30 degrees---it would have to be returned to us. Replacing a rotor or wound stator also changes the factory timing slightly.
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:47 PM   #9179
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The Nashville crowd (Thunder RC and Cool Springs) has always had an interesting perspective on VTA. They have worked very hard to promote it. When they first started, they were very relaxed in their rules. Then when the attendance numbers built up, they split the class into a pure VTA and a Relaxed rules version. This way they always had something for the kids and the noobs and those who just wanted to try it, and they had a class for the VTA guy who shows up from out of town and runs Official rules. What impresses me most about that group is how they have always been able to promote and support the Official Set up without necessarily ramming it down. Perhaps I am biased about the Nashville crowd because I get along very well with them. Perhaps I get along well because of their perspective.

RobK has a difficult postition in that his main goal is a uniform set of rules nationally. He therefore cannot afford to make exceptions or be soft on the rules.

Cheers to all who think this is a great class. And here's to all who love it and do their best to preserve it and cultivate it.
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:23 PM   #9180
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Originally Posted by snoopyrc View Post
The Nashville crowd (Thunder RC and Cool Springs) has always had an interesting perspective on VTA. They have worked very hard to promote it. When they first started, they were very relaxed in their rules. Then when the attendance numbers built up, they split the class into a pure VTA and a Relaxed rules version. This way they always had something for the kids and the noobs and those who just wanted to try it, and they had a class for the VTA guy who shows up from out of town and runs Official rules. What impresses me most about that group is how they have always been able to promote and support the Official Set up without necessarily ramming it down. Perhaps I am biased about the Nashville crowd because I get along very well with them. Perhaps I get along well because of their perspective.

RobK has a difficult postition in that his main goal is a uniform set of rules nationally. He therefore cannot afford to make exceptions or be soft on the rules.

Cheers to all who think this is a great class. And here's to all who love it and do their best to preserve it and cultivate it.


THANK YOU SNOOP
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