Sad story: Cheating rampant at big races...
08-04-2014, 03:55 PM
#706
The health of a class is judged on participation. The more people that want to be involved in the healthier it is.
If the cheating was out of hand where it was every race every time, and not just the occasional violator then the class would quickly die in favor of something else.
If the cheating was out of hand where it was every race every time, and not just the occasional violator then the class would quickly die in favor of something else.
08-04-2014, 03:57 PM
#707
There's more to it then just motors. Good batteries and how they are "conditioned" and also the ESC both play a big roll in in getting the most out of the motor and keeping the temps in a resonable area. Attention to little details on car setup and the list of better performing parts available and used all contribute to what you are seeing.
In terms of ESC in theory the blinky mode is intended to make all ESCs equal.
From tests I have done they are not but the differences are small. I haven't noticed a difference in motor temperature though.
08-04-2014, 03:58 PM
#708
Tech Addict
iTrader: (16)
The health of a class is judged on participation. The more people that want to be involved in the healthier it is.
If the cheating was out of hand where it was every race every time, and not just the occasional violator then the class would quickly die in favor of something else.
If the cheating was out of hand where it was every race every time, and not just the occasional violator then the class would quickly die in favor of something else.
Nobody said 17.5 is not popular, what is being called into question is how bad is the cheating, and does something need to be done (ie does 17.5 have cancer and people are just not aware?)
08-04-2014, 04:14 PM
#709
Eddie can you specify which LCR meter is sufficient as from the datasheets the BK 874, 878, 879 are not accurate enough. The Bk 885 appears to be up to the task but cost is $500.
The cheaper units I have found around $200 from other brands also had poor accuracy that was not sufficient.
ROAR now uses inductance. As per the ROAR approved list the inductance is specified for each motor. If resistance is what should be used why is ROAR using inductance?
http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/...lessmotors.php
The cheaper units I have found around $200 from other brands also had poor accuracy that was not sufficient.
ROAR now uses inductance. As per the ROAR approved list the inductance is specified for each motor. If resistance is what should be used why is ROAR using inductance?
http://www.roarracing.com/approvals/...lessmotors.php
Why these are still using just inductance is retarded, though I don't see any numbers published next to newer approved motors either. Inductance is easily cheated on even the most accurate meters, as numerous things can influence it...resistance does not really have those issues, but the correct meters to measure it are not as cheap as a decent LCR...
I would love to know how to condition a lipo to reduce motor temps.
In terms of ESC in theory the blinky mode is intended to make all ESCs equal.
From tests I have done they are not but the differences are small. I haven't noticed a difference in motor temperature though.
In terms of ESC in theory the blinky mode is intended to make all ESCs equal.
From tests I have done they are not but the differences are small. I haven't noticed a difference in motor temperature though.
Later EddieO
Last edited by EddieO; 08-04-2014 at 04:33 PM.
08-04-2014, 04:38 PM
#710
BK875B is more the accurate enough to measure a Brushless Stator for tech.....this added need for stuff that's accurate down to .00001 % is retarded.
Will it clearly identify if the stator has had a turn removed or if a 15.5T stator has been used in place of a 17.5T.
Why these are still using just inductance is retarded, though I don't see any numbers published next to approved motors either. Inductance is easily cheated on even the most accurate meters, as numerous things can influence it...resistance does not really have those issues, but the correct meters to measure it are not as cheap as a decent LCR...
Later EddieO
Will it clearly identify if the stator has had a turn removed or if a 15.5T stator has been used in place of a 17.5T.
Why these are still using just inductance is retarded, though I don't see any numbers published next to approved motors either. Inductance is easily cheated on even the most accurate meters, as numerous things can influence it...resistance does not really have those issues, but the correct meters to measure it are not as cheap as a decent LCR...
Later EddieO
The inductance has only been specified for recently approved motors if you scroll down the list you will see them.
How is inductance easily cheated?
Resistance even with an accurate meter can provide the same result with a different number of turns. IE what if I rewind a 17.5T stator with slightly thinner wire but I use less turns and the resistance measurement is identical to the original.
Motor would produce more rpm and more power in the mid to upper rpm range but resistance measurement is the same.
Inductance on the other hand would be different.
My current lipos measure 1.4mohm and 1.6mohm per cell. I have used 3-4mohm lipos previously and I didn't notice a difference in temps.
Last edited by frozenpod; 08-04-2014 at 04:54 PM.
08-04-2014, 04:59 PM
#711
Inductance can be cheated with temp the easiest...there are other ways the manufacture can modify inductance readings on how they construct the motor. There is a reason you can't compare inductance readings between different types of motors....there are other ways to cheat it, but I am not going to post it on a public forum so a bunch of idiots can go try it.
Changing wire sizes doesn't work like you think.....besides, a tech guy is a failure if he can't visually spot the tampered with smaller wire.
Resistance is much harder to cheat, and much easier to spot attempts at it.
From what I am told the Instek GOM 801H is what ROAR uses to measure motors now. Its also what multiple of the Oval groups are using as well. Unless you are using it for tech or to sell motors, a bit overkill though. The MMS or Fantom units, or my soon to be released unit will be well within tolerances for the racers pit box...
Looking at the current list you posted, none of the recently approved motors have inductance listed....
Later EddieO
Changing wire sizes doesn't work like you think.....besides, a tech guy is a failure if he can't visually spot the tampered with smaller wire.
Resistance is much harder to cheat, and much easier to spot attempts at it.
From what I am told the Instek GOM 801H is what ROAR uses to measure motors now. Its also what multiple of the Oval groups are using as well. Unless you are using it for tech or to sell motors, a bit overkill though. The MMS or Fantom units, or my soon to be released unit will be well within tolerances for the racers pit box...
Looking at the current list you posted, none of the recently approved motors have inductance listed....
Later EddieO
08-05-2014, 07:15 AM
#712
Tech Master
http://www.liverc.com/news/special_f...A_Matt_Murphy/
What a shame, I was hoping to see it happen. 
http://www.liverc.com/news/special_f...3A_Frank_Root/
The TITAN motor has never existed, and never will. In reality, TITAN was used to make racers, track owners, and sanctioning bodies think about the current state of RC SPEC motor racing. I found it truly amazing how many racers were "outraged" that a blatantly illegal motor was going to be built and sold to racers who want to cheat the rules. The reality of the matter, is that there are many motor companies already selling illegal versions of the ROAR Approved motors. What I find to be even worse, is that most of these companies sell illegal versions that are in the same can as the legal versions, meaning that spotting them is impossible without a full motor teardown and inspection. The hypothetical TITAN motor was going to be built, marketed, sold, and especially labeled as a motor that is NOT ROAR LEGAL. Meanwhile, more negativity surrounded the TITAN motor than is surrounding the other illegal motors being sold in disguise as legal versions.
http://www.liverc.com/news/special_f...3A_Frank_Root/
AW: You were the center of some controversy this past weekend at the Surf City Classic, as there were plenty of racers who weren't happy with your decision to run Stock Buggy. Why'd you choose to enter that class, along with Pro 2 and Pro 4?
FR: Great question - I have great reasons for running, and am happy to share those. First, I don't get to race very much any more - only 7 days since Reedy Race. Second, I had to work and wasn't able to get to the track until late Friday evening, missing out on most all of practice. Third, I need to be able to support our top drivers as best as I can which is really hard to do when if we run all the same classes. Fourth, and by far the most important - we consistently get feedback from TLR consumers that they are looking for stock setups, confirmation that we are running stock during development, stock-specific tuning parts, and general stock support. For the most part, we haven't been able to provide those things directly from the engineering/R&D group as well as we would like to, and that is something we need to improve on. I’m sure you noticed that there were 110 entries in the stock buggy class, which was far and away the largest class when compared to only 60 in the next biggest class (mod buggy). What better way to improve our cars for stock racing, support our consumers at the event (and those at home) with setup help, and gather insight into what is really needed to help our consumers win their club races in the stock classes than with knowledge and insight from actively participating in the class? It takes experience racing in those classes, and given that I haven't run a stock motor since they had brushes, and the deep field at this race, it was the perfect opportunity to help us learn quickly and support the TLR consumers.
AW: For the 2014 season, ROAR lifted their rule that was intended to curb "career stock racers" and keep the factory pros out of the class. Do you think anyone should be able to enter, or should it be protected for incoming racers?
FR: That sure is a slippery slope. Who is to say who is too good to run stock? The guy who wins is better than everyone else in the class right? So if you kick him out, is the next guy now too good also? There are plenty of sponsored racers who cannot compete in National-level events in the stock classes, but how do you draw the line, and where? I appreciate the difficulty of that decision and am glad I am not the one who has to make it.
FR: Great question - I have great reasons for running, and am happy to share those. First, I don't get to race very much any more - only 7 days since Reedy Race. Second, I had to work and wasn't able to get to the track until late Friday evening, missing out on most all of practice. Third, I need to be able to support our top drivers as best as I can which is really hard to do when if we run all the same classes. Fourth, and by far the most important - we consistently get feedback from TLR consumers that they are looking for stock setups, confirmation that we are running stock during development, stock-specific tuning parts, and general stock support. For the most part, we haven't been able to provide those things directly from the engineering/R&D group as well as we would like to, and that is something we need to improve on. I’m sure you noticed that there were 110 entries in the stock buggy class, which was far and away the largest class when compared to only 60 in the next biggest class (mod buggy). What better way to improve our cars for stock racing, support our consumers at the event (and those at home) with setup help, and gather insight into what is really needed to help our consumers win their club races in the stock classes than with knowledge and insight from actively participating in the class? It takes experience racing in those classes, and given that I haven't run a stock motor since they had brushes, and the deep field at this race, it was the perfect opportunity to help us learn quickly and support the TLR consumers.
AW: For the 2014 season, ROAR lifted their rule that was intended to curb "career stock racers" and keep the factory pros out of the class. Do you think anyone should be able to enter, or should it be protected for incoming racers?
FR: That sure is a slippery slope. Who is to say who is too good to run stock? The guy who wins is better than everyone else in the class right? So if you kick him out, is the next guy now too good also? There are plenty of sponsored racers who cannot compete in National-level events in the stock classes, but how do you draw the line, and where? I appreciate the difficulty of that decision and am glad I am not the one who has to make it.
08-05-2014, 08:18 AM
#713
Just checked out a company that makes tamper proof seals.
They make a inexpensive seal that will show & alert anyone the seal has been tamper with .
This seal is counterfeit proof.
No excuse's , no meter's , no dissembling, no measuring...
Easy tech...
They make a inexpensive seal that will show & alert anyone the seal has been tamper with .
This seal is counterfeit proof.
No excuse's , no meter's , no dissembling, no measuring...
Easy tech...
08-05-2014, 08:25 AM
#714
Tech Master
08-05-2014, 08:30 AM
#715
http://www.liverc.com/news/special_f...A_Matt_Murphy/
What a shame, I was hoping to see it happen.
http://www.liverc.com/news/special_f...3A_Frank_Root/
AW: You were the center of some controversy this past weekend at the Surf City Classic, as there were plenty of racers who weren't happy with your decision to run Stock Buggy. Why'd you choose to enter that class, along with Pro 2 and Pro 4?
FR: Great question - I have great reasons for running, and am happy to share those. First, I don't get to race very much any more - only 7 days since Reedy Race. Second, I had to work and wasn't able to get to the track until late Friday evening, missing out on most all of practice. Third, I need to be able to support our top drivers as best as I can which is really hard to do when if we run all the same classes. Fourth, and by far the most important - we consistently get feedback from TLR consumers that they are looking for stock setups, confirmation that we are running stock during development, stock-specific tuning parts, and general stock support. For the most part, we haven't been able to provide those things directly from the engineering/R&D group as well as we would like to, and that is something we need to improve on. I’m sure you noticed that there were 110 entries in the stock buggy class, which was far and away the largest class when compared to only 60 in the next biggest class (mod buggy). What better way to improve our cars for stock racing, support our consumers at the event (and those at home) with setup help, and gather insight into what is really needed to help our consumers win their club races in the stock classes than with knowledge and insight from actively participating in the class? It takes experience racing in those classes, and given that I haven't run a stock motor since they had brushes, and the deep field at this race, it was the perfect opportunity to help us learn quickly and support the TLR consumers.
AW: For the 2014 season, ROAR lifted their rule that was intended to curb "career stock racers" and keep the factory pros out of the class. Do you think anyone should be able to enter, or should it be protected for incoming racers?
FR: That sure is a slippery slope. Who is to say who is too good to run stock? The guy who wins is better than everyone else in the class right? So if you kick him out, is the next guy now too good also? There are plenty of sponsored racers who cannot compete in National-level events in the stock classes, but how do you draw the line, and where? I appreciate the difficulty of that decision and am glad I am not the one who has to make it.
What a shame, I was hoping to see it happen.
http://www.liverc.com/news/special_f...3A_Frank_Root/
AW: You were the center of some controversy this past weekend at the Surf City Classic, as there were plenty of racers who weren't happy with your decision to run Stock Buggy. Why'd you choose to enter that class, along with Pro 2 and Pro 4?
FR: Great question - I have great reasons for running, and am happy to share those. First, I don't get to race very much any more - only 7 days since Reedy Race. Second, I had to work and wasn't able to get to the track until late Friday evening, missing out on most all of practice. Third, I need to be able to support our top drivers as best as I can which is really hard to do when if we run all the same classes. Fourth, and by far the most important - we consistently get feedback from TLR consumers that they are looking for stock setups, confirmation that we are running stock during development, stock-specific tuning parts, and general stock support. For the most part, we haven't been able to provide those things directly from the engineering/R&D group as well as we would like to, and that is something we need to improve on. I’m sure you noticed that there were 110 entries in the stock buggy class, which was far and away the largest class when compared to only 60 in the next biggest class (mod buggy). What better way to improve our cars for stock racing, support our consumers at the event (and those at home) with setup help, and gather insight into what is really needed to help our consumers win their club races in the stock classes than with knowledge and insight from actively participating in the class? It takes experience racing in those classes, and given that I haven't run a stock motor since they had brushes, and the deep field at this race, it was the perfect opportunity to help us learn quickly and support the TLR consumers.
AW: For the 2014 season, ROAR lifted their rule that was intended to curb "career stock racers" and keep the factory pros out of the class. Do you think anyone should be able to enter, or should it be protected for incoming racers?
FR: That sure is a slippery slope. Who is to say who is too good to run stock? The guy who wins is better than everyone else in the class right? So if you kick him out, is the next guy now too good also? There are plenty of sponsored racers who cannot compete in National-level events in the stock classes, but how do you draw the line, and where? I appreciate the difficulty of that decision and am glad I am not the one who has to make it.
08-05-2014, 08:32 AM
#716
Tech Master
08-05-2014, 08:35 AM
#717
08-05-2014, 08:45 AM
#718
Tech Master
08-05-2014, 09:06 AM
#719
Something similar...
Tech could ck motors first, install seal after.
Or all the motor company's required to use on spec designs.
There's not a better solution to the cheat then a security seal .
Tech could ck motors first, install seal after.
Or all the motor company's required to use on spec designs.
There's not a better solution to the cheat then a security seal .
08-05-2014, 09:15 AM
#720
George, you can still meter a motor multiple ways with the can sealed....pretty much all of the stator meters out can do it....a rotor meter could be designed to do it as well...the new motolyser measures multiple things including amp draw per phase and sensor timing with the motor assembled....
Sealing motors is retarded. The whole big point of these motors was they would last forever with little maintenance. One of the things that actually needs to be cared for and replaced is the bearings....seal the can, can't really do that.
There are much easier ways to do what yer after, many of which would of been similar rules carried over from the brushed motors...why these motors were allowed to have adjustable timing or multiple rotors or interchangable parts is beyond me...
Later EddieO
Sealing motors is retarded. The whole big point of these motors was they would last forever with little maintenance. One of the things that actually needs to be cared for and replaced is the bearings....seal the can, can't really do that.
There are much easier ways to do what yer after, many of which would of been similar rules carried over from the brushed motors...why these motors were allowed to have adjustable timing or multiple rotors or interchangable parts is beyond me...
Later EddieO