28LikesTLR 22-4 THREAD
03-14-2014, 08:31 PM
#4126
UN4RACING, can you explain again just what switching to the 10° front caster blocks did for the steering characteristics of your buggy? And are you using the rear sway bar?
03-14-2014, 08:50 PM
#4127
A complete set for my 44.2 was 50.00. So if these are 100.00 and last twice as long I feel its a bargain when I think about how much better they perform. I would have to say they priced them right. Of coarse that's complete sets. Although I have never had to buy pieces to repair a CVA. The bell axle and the bone were usually both slopped out to bad to save them.
03-14-2014, 08:52 PM
#4128
I cant speak for UN4 but on my buggy yes I do run the rear sway bar, the yellow one, and i also switched to the 10* caster blocks and it seemed to make it feel more consistent. I wont say it mellowed it out but gave the steering a better feel and it was easier to drive. Smoother steering response i guess might be the way to put it?
03-14-2014, 10:03 PM
#4129
Wow, thanks for the detailed explanation. So if Im understanding this right, as I go to a stiffer spring and greater tension I am closer to the full time 4wd. So if I start with a stiff spring with higher tension, that would be less front wheel action. I currently have the soft spring with about medium tension and I like it a lot. I was trying to avoid buying a swaybar set but with full time 4wd, it really needed it so I went with using the clicker to help with too much rear traction. Where would you start with the clicker?
I will attempt to explain it. Its a middle between a one way and a diff. Off power you will get more steering but with some resistance from what a one way would produce.
You will still have the diff action off power but with more front diff free wheel action, it separates the resistance from the belts one end to the other. The freedom is determined by how tight or loose the tension and can be more precisely tuned with stronger or a weaker spring. Spring strength and or tightness is going to allow you more off power braking effects as well. Note braking will suffer no matter what with a clicker. The clicker spline will fail at some point due to the slipping but its a long process before failing. Keep an eye on the ware.
Diff action will be the same action on power out of the turn. But It does allow you to run the front diff tighter and that will give you pull out of the turn while the clicker allows more off power turn in. Trial and error is the only way to get it just right.
The clicker is way better than the one way for off road applications.
One ways have tons of off power steering cause it is freer than a diff and totally separates the drive train off power. The result with a one way is the the pull out of a turn is insanely good. BUT ONE WAYS SUCK ON BRAKING. A clicker allows you to attack the apex with at least SOME braking. But if you want that kind of on power out of a turn you will need to run the front diff tighter than normal.
Its hard to find the happy setting with a clicker cause one setting will effect the other. That's the reason for 2 springs.
Clickers are gentle on front tires as well. That's a plus.
At any speed I'm not a wizard just trying to be...LOL
You will still have the diff action off power but with more front diff free wheel action, it separates the resistance from the belts one end to the other. The freedom is determined by how tight or loose the tension and can be more precisely tuned with stronger or a weaker spring. Spring strength and or tightness is going to allow you more off power braking effects as well. Note braking will suffer no matter what with a clicker. The clicker spline will fail at some point due to the slipping but its a long process before failing. Keep an eye on the ware.
Diff action will be the same action on power out of the turn. But It does allow you to run the front diff tighter and that will give you pull out of the turn while the clicker allows more off power turn in. Trial and error is the only way to get it just right.
The clicker is way better than the one way for off road applications.
One ways have tons of off power steering cause it is freer than a diff and totally separates the drive train off power. The result with a one way is the the pull out of a turn is insanely good. BUT ONE WAYS SUCK ON BRAKING. A clicker allows you to attack the apex with at least SOME braking. But if you want that kind of on power out of a turn you will need to run the front diff tighter than normal.
Its hard to find the happy setting with a clicker cause one setting will effect the other. That's the reason for 2 springs.
Clickers are gentle on front tires as well. That's a plus.
At any speed I'm not a wizard just trying to be...LOL
03-14-2014, 10:09 PM
#4130
As for the 10* caster blocks its to easy to just say I love them buy them..LOL So I will try to be as detailed as I can. It was pretty good with 15* but we don't have enough traction for them. I am running the front shock eyelet in the inner lower hole. The track demands it due to the bumps and wash board. Off power it was lazy with 15* entering the turns "delayed steering to describe it best". But I liked it exiting the turn, it was not bad at all. I needed to get some off power steering. I tried a lot of other options but I was just getting frustrated, camber links roll center and so on, one end of the kit would be great and the other end suffered, it was like I had made 5 adjustments for each section of the track but not the track as a whole. So I backed everything up and threw on the 10*. After that it felt like I had transferred weight to the front and the kit felt more neutral front to rear. In hind sight I now know the kit is an ounce bias to the rear. I gained a ton of off power at higher speeds. The only ill effect in one section is on power I am having to pull the trigger a bit harder and crank the wheel harder to get it to pull in tighter on power (middle rear hub setting). Only on sweepers though. Short shots coming out of a turn its great, point and shoot zoom zoom its out of there like a bullet. I just adjusted my driving some and all is fine on the wide sweeping turn that I want to stay tight in. I personally think its the track in that section. "I am able to run the longest wheel base to compensate that but it kills my off power" LOL. (unpredictable).
Off power entering a turn it drives itself. Its tame and very predictable. 10* feels more linear at a faster rate of speed, I highly recommend at least having a try at it. I was very impressed with how much better it was on and off power. If your running on a real high bite track it may be a bit aggressive? On our track I am able to flat out go in for the kill in full attack mode nice and tight with the 10's.....
My advise is if you try them you will have to drive harder in and out. At slow speeds there is some over steer. The response is almost instant. The shorter links made the kit feel tipsy. Tire choice could compensate that though.If I move the front lower eyelet out the steering is more aggressive. I only do this if I think the traction allows it. Higher bite. 99.9% of the time I am in the inner lower hole.
In short I can attack the turns with authority in and out with the 10*. It was a very simple solution but worked flawless on our track. Some times the simplest easiest thing is the last thing to try to get it just right. I was all over the place on my set up. Right now I am not that far off of the box stock set up.
The options I needed to get the front just the way I like it now is orange front springs 10* casters a 1mm shim on the spindle and thinner oil. And on the rear the options are thinner oil and an anti roll kit... The box stock links were a happy medium on our track. Now after this week the lay out changes completely so I'll get to see if this set up works then or not.
At any speed I hope this will help and maybe the details can help you better know if they would benefit you....
At 40.00 bucks a set it was money well spent for me.
Last edited by UN4RACING; 03-14-2014 at 10:23 PM.
03-14-2014, 10:20 PM
#4131
Wow, thanks for the detailed explanation. So if Im understanding this right, as I go to a stiffer spring and greater tension I am closer to the full time 4wd. So if I start with a stiff spring with higher tension, that would be less front wheel action. I currently have the soft spring with about medium tension and I like it a lot. I was trying to avoid buying a swaybar set but with full time 4wd, it really needed it so I went with using the clicker to help with too much rear traction. Where would you start with the clicker?
I would start as close to full time 4x4 as possible and loosen it till I had the feel I was looking for.
The softer spring will result in a freer front end...
The softer you get or the less tension you have braking is harder to control. The tension will control how much brake you can use. Off power you can expect to have a 2 wheel drive drag brake feel if its real loose.
03-14-2014, 10:29 PM
#4132
I cant speak for UN4 but on my buggy yes I do run the rear sway bar, the yellow one, and i also switched to the 10* caster blocks and it seemed to make it feel more consistent. I wont say it mellowed it out but gave the steering a better feel and it was easier to drive. Smoother steering response i guess might be the way to put it?
03-14-2014, 10:47 PM
#4133
Thank you UN4RACING. That was EXACTLY the type of detailed response I was looking for. Today was my 1st time driving my buggy. Besides the 7.5T motor scaring the hell out of me down the straight and over the jumps the 1st few laps, the buggy ran well. I started with no sway bar and felt the rear lacked rotation off power in tight turns. After adding the sway bar the steering improved - but not quite to the level I was looking for. By your description, I think the 10* blocks should add the steering I'm looking for off power. I have them on order now. My only casualty today was a broken right rear outer ball cup. I jumped a big double off angle and hit the wall alongside the jump, which tumbled the buggy down awkwardly snapping the cup in half at the threads. I replaced it and finished my practice session. Hopefully the addition of the new blocks and possibly a smaller pinion will bring my buggy more into my driving comfort zone.
03-14-2014, 11:50 PM
#4134
12* would be awesome!! I would love to have a set and I hope they produce them. Are you still running the pink rear sway?
03-15-2014, 06:09 AM
#4137
Thank you UN4RACING. That was EXACTLY the type of detailed response I was looking for. Today was my 1st time driving my buggy. Besides the 7.5T motor scaring the hell out of me down the straight and over the jumps the 1st few laps, the buggy ran well. I started with no sway bar and felt the rear lacked rotation off power in tight turns. After adding the sway bar the steering improved - but not quite to the level I was looking for. By your description, I think the 10* blocks should add the steering I'm looking for off power. I have them on order now. My only casualty today was a broken right rear outer ball cup. I jumped a big double off angle and hit the wall alongside the jump, which tumbled the buggy down awkwardly snapping the cup in half at the threads. I replaced it and finished my practice session. Hopefully the addition of the new blocks and possibly a smaller pinion will bring my buggy more into my driving comfort zone.
EDIT: News flash!!! We stop this thread for a "BREAKING" report! You broke a ball cup!!! LOL I have to say these are the toughest ball cups ever so in doing that with out breaking a axle or ball stud has got to be some sort of miracle..LOL Now back to our normal thread posting. This has been a documented abnormal phenomena. Race on...
Last edited by UN4RACING; 03-15-2014 at 06:39 AM.
03-15-2014, 07:00 AM
#4138
I broke an inner rear ball cup on the left side two weeks ago. I was surprised myself but it is a cheap fix so I was happy. I felt the 10° blocks gave the car a more consistant feel all the way around the track and I run the lightest rear sway bar in the rear. Also using the inner bottom hole on the front shock. I did switch to the low frequency springs front and rear. This car is a missile.
03-15-2014, 07:10 AM
#4139
I broke an inner rear ball cup on the left side two weeks ago. I was surprised myself but it is a cheap fix so I was happy. I felt the 10° blocks gave the car a more consistant feel all the way around the track and I run the lightest rear sway bar in the rear. Also using the inner bottom hole on the front shock. I did switch to the low frequency springs front and rear. This car is a missile.
03-15-2014, 07:25 AM
#4140
I had to use the rear sway to get the kit to square up faster out of turns. It handled fine in the bumps and jumps and was pretty stable. But coming out of a turn it was lazy. It just rolled over to far. I went with the thick one in the end. Pink.
As for the 10* caster blocks its to easy to just say I love them buy them..LOL So I will try to be as detailed as I can. It was pretty good with 15* but we don't have enough traction for them. I am running the front shock eyelet in the inner lower hole. The track demands it due to the bumps and wash board. Off power it was lazy with 15* entering the turns "delayed steering to describe it best". But I liked it exiting the turn, it was not bad at all. I needed to get some off power steering. I tried a lot of other options but I was just getting frustrated, camber links roll center and so on, one end of the kit would be great and the other end suffered, it was like I had made 5 adjustments for each section of the track but not the track as a whole. So I backed everything up and threw on the 10*. After that it felt like I had transferred weight to the front and the kit felt more neutral front to rear. In hind sight I now know the kit is an ounce bias to the rear. I gained a ton of off power at higher speeds. The only ill effect in one section is on power I am having to pull the trigger a bit harder and crank the wheel harder to get it to pull in tighter on power (middle rear hub setting). Only on sweepers though. Short shots coming out of a turn its great, point and shoot zoom zoom its out of there like a bullet. I just adjusted my driving some and all is fine on the wide sweeping turn that I want to stay tight in. I personally think its the track in that section. "I am able to run the longest wheel base to compensate that but it kills my off power" LOL. (unpredictable).
Off power entering a turn it drives itself. Its tame and very predictable. 10* feels more linear at a faster rate of speed, I highly recommend at least having a try at it. I was very impressed with how much better it was on and off power. If your running on a real high bite track it may be a bit aggressive? On our track I am able to flat out go in for the kill in full attack mode nice and tight with the 10's..... My advise is if you try them you will have to drive harder in and out. At slow speeds there is some over steer. The response is almost instant. The shorter links made the kit feel tipsy. Tire choice could compensate that though.
If I move the front lower eyelet out the steering is more aggressive. I only do this if I think the traction allows it. Higher bite. 99.9% of the time I am in the inner lower hole.
In short I can attack the turns with authority in and out with the 10*. It was a very simple solution but worked flawless on our track. Some times the simplest easiest thing is the last thing to try to get it just right. I was all over the place on my set up. Right now I am not that far off of the box stock set up.
The options I needed to get the front just the way I like it now is orange front springs 10* casters a 1mm shim on the spindle and thinner oil. And on the rear the options are thinner oil and an anti roll kit... The box stock links were a happy medium on our track. Now after this week the lay out changes completely so I'll get to see if this set up works then or not.
At any speed I hope this will help and maybe the details can help you better know if they would benefit you.... At 40.00 bucks a set it was money well spent for me.
As for the 10* caster blocks its to easy to just say I love them buy them..LOL So I will try to be as detailed as I can. It was pretty good with 15* but we don't have enough traction for them. I am running the front shock eyelet in the inner lower hole. The track demands it due to the bumps and wash board. Off power it was lazy with 15* entering the turns "delayed steering to describe it best". But I liked it exiting the turn, it was not bad at all. I needed to get some off power steering. I tried a lot of other options but I was just getting frustrated, camber links roll center and so on, one end of the kit would be great and the other end suffered, it was like I had made 5 adjustments for each section of the track but not the track as a whole. So I backed everything up and threw on the 10*. After that it felt like I had transferred weight to the front and the kit felt more neutral front to rear. In hind sight I now know the kit is an ounce bias to the rear. I gained a ton of off power at higher speeds. The only ill effect in one section is on power I am having to pull the trigger a bit harder and crank the wheel harder to get it to pull in tighter on power (middle rear hub setting). Only on sweepers though. Short shots coming out of a turn its great, point and shoot zoom zoom its out of there like a bullet. I just adjusted my driving some and all is fine on the wide sweeping turn that I want to stay tight in. I personally think its the track in that section. "I am able to run the longest wheel base to compensate that but it kills my off power" LOL. (unpredictable).
Off power entering a turn it drives itself. Its tame and very predictable. 10* feels more linear at a faster rate of speed, I highly recommend at least having a try at it. I was very impressed with how much better it was on and off power. If your running on a real high bite track it may be a bit aggressive? On our track I am able to flat out go in for the kill in full attack mode nice and tight with the 10's.....
My advise is if you try them you will have to drive harder in and out. At slow speeds there is some over steer. The response is almost instant. The shorter links made the kit feel tipsy. Tire choice could compensate that though.If I move the front lower eyelet out the steering is more aggressive. I only do this if I think the traction allows it. Higher bite. 99.9% of the time I am in the inner lower hole.
In short I can attack the turns with authority in and out with the 10*. It was a very simple solution but worked flawless on our track. Some times the simplest easiest thing is the last thing to try to get it just right. I was all over the place on my set up. Right now I am not that far off of the box stock set up.
The options I needed to get the front just the way I like it now is orange front springs 10* casters a 1mm shim on the spindle and thinner oil. And on the rear the options are thinner oil and an anti roll kit... The box stock links were a happy medium on our track. Now after this week the lay out changes completely so I'll get to see if this set up works then or not.
At any speed I hope this will help and maybe the details can help you better know if they would benefit you....
At 40.00 bucks a set it was money well spent for me.So it seems like you have your 22-4 pretty well to your liking.
Can you post your set-up for those of us who are still struggling with our 22-4 set ups?
Thanks.
Tom