248LikesXray XB4 thread
01-26-2015, 06:48 PM
#6706
And there again we have that curious conflict of what the inserts say they do vs. the measurements you took. If zeros have them at 2.5/3.5, a .5 on the left should only change it to 3.0/3.5, but they seem very even with that setup, which according to your measure of the right arm in that position should be 3.5 deg.........can anybody get that setup on an accurate board and get an overall toe reading?.....
The book says that zeros should be 3 deg, so going with a .5 out on the left should have it at 3.25 deg total if they are even. I haven't tried it yet but I'll have to take a look at what happens when you go with a 1 deg out on the left, though I'm guessing it throws it back off with the left having more toe.
The book does say .5 deg=.375mm, 1 deg=.75mm
The book says that zeros should be 3 deg, so going with a .5 out on the left should have it at 3.25 deg total if they are even. I haven't tried it yet but I'll have to take a look at what happens when you go with a 1 deg out on the left, though I'm guessing it throws it back off with the left having more toe.
The book does say .5 deg=.375mm, 1 deg=.75mm
01-26-2015, 08:58 PM
#6710
Tech Master
iTrader: (15)
The printout shows the actual inner hinge pin angles in relation to the centerline of the chassis. According to xray these should be 3 degrees per side with the 0 inserts. As you can see they are 2.5 and 3.5
There are 2 holes in the bottom of the chassis which I used to create the alignment. I leveled the alignment on the bottom of the chassis. Our CMM is repeatable within .0002" of an inch. I've been programming cmms for 20 years. Trust me when I say the rear hinge pins are off. Xray can say whatever they want. When assembled the rear suspension isn't right. But somehow the right response of "sorry we made a mistake, we will take care of all of our customers" changed to some crap about legendary attention to detail. Probably about the time they calculated how much money it would cost to make it right.
There are 2 holes in the bottom of the chassis which I used to create the alignment. I leveled the alignment on the bottom of the chassis. Our CMM is repeatable within .0002" of an inch. I've been programming cmms for 20 years. Trust me when I say the rear hinge pins are off. Xray can say whatever they want. When assembled the rear suspension isn't right. But somehow the right response of "sorry we made a mistake, we will take care of all of our customers" changed to some crap about legendary attention to detail. Probably about the time they calculated how much money it would cost to make it right.
01-26-2015, 08:58 PM
#6711
Just another disappointed customer here with a 2015 that has the problem. Actually bumped across it with another racer just eyeballing the car last weekend. Not impressed with their response!
01-26-2015, 09:13 PM
#6712
I contacted the owner of a company over the weekend and he said he would look into it. If nothing happens soon I'm going to a friend that runs a machine shop and see about getting some made. They won't be as pretty and the xray ones (not anodized) but they'll be on center. I'm not looking to make money just get parts that are correct out to owners. Hopefully my cost will be less than $30 each but we'll see.
01-26-2015, 10:05 PM
#6714
Ok guys I finally had time to take some measurements on the CMM with different combinations of inserts. I also measured the distance to the centerline of the mount insert pockets. It was worse than I originally thought. All measurements are to the centerline of the chassis. Here's what I found:
Inner hinge pin angles with 0 inserts:
Left 2.73 degrees
Right 3.60 degrees
Inner hinge pin angles with 0 insert right side and .5 insert out on left side:
Left 3.22 degrees
Right 3.60 degrees
Inner hinge pin angles 0 insert left side .5 in on right side:
Left 2.73 degrees
Right 3.08 degrees
Inner hinge pin angles 0 insert right side 1 insert out left side:
Left 3.69
Right 3.60
Centerline of chassis to centerline of insert mount pockets no inserts:
Left .9004"
Right .9280"
Offset of pockets to centerline of chassis:
.0138" towards right side.
I measured my mount at .010" offset with calipers, but looks like the holes in the case are also offset about .004"
No bueno.
Inner hinge pin angles with 0 inserts:
Left 2.73 degrees
Right 3.60 degrees
Inner hinge pin angles with 0 insert right side and .5 insert out on left side:
Left 3.22 degrees
Right 3.60 degrees
Inner hinge pin angles 0 insert left side .5 in on right side:
Left 2.73 degrees
Right 3.08 degrees
Inner hinge pin angles 0 insert right side 1 insert out left side:
Left 3.69
Right 3.60
Centerline of chassis to centerline of insert mount pockets no inserts:
Left .9004"
Right .9280"
Offset of pockets to centerline of chassis:
.0138" towards right side.
I measured my mount at .010" offset with calipers, but looks like the holes in the case are also offset about .004"
No bueno.
01-26-2015, 10:23 PM
#6715
Perfect timing. I just got a reply from Xray to my email showing them my results. They maintain that the toe is within .1 to .2 degrees of nominal when assembled. And they made sure to mention that was checked on a Hudy setup station. We already know that's not going to show the problem. So I guess we're SOL and need to go to the aftermarket for a fix. Very dissapointing.
01-26-2015, 10:31 PM
#6716
Wow I will be glad to help I am sorry but I'm still a bit lost as this was brought to my attention today.
Perfect timing. I just got a reply from Xray to my email showing them my results. They maintain that the toe is within .1 to .2 degrees of nominal when assembled. And they made sure to mention that was checked on a Hudy setup station. We already know that's not going to show the problem. So I guess we're SOL and need to go to the aftermarket for a fix. Very dissapointing.
01-27-2015, 12:48 AM
#6717
I've not been following this discussion closely, I have a 2014 XB4 and at this stage no plans to update, not enough local EP10 racing.
So the problem is that the holes in a suspension hanger are of set, to fix a issue with the gearbox molding.
When assembled and checked on a setup station (HUDY obviously) the problem is not detectable?
...
So the problem is that the holes in a suspension hanger are of set, to fix a issue with the gearbox molding.
When assembled and checked on a setup station (HUDY obviously) the problem is not detectable?
...
01-27-2015, 01:26 AM
#6718
Tech Rookie
Please understand that many factors influence the overall toe setting including the uprights/steering block holes, wheel hex hub tolerances and their natural play or even the lower diff bulkhead screws tolerances and the way these screws are mounted to the bulkhead from bottom of the chassis. All these factors were taken into consideration and the suspension holders designed appropriately so at the end when the car is fully assembled and put on a set-up system such as HUDY Set-up System that the left and right toe are within the tolerance same.
As mentioned the tolerances and purpose play of the parts result in a variation of measuring results. It is enough when a cusotmer will dismount the diff bulkhead, changes the screws and tighten them in a different order to the chassis and the final toe due the sum of tolerances and tension forces in the composite parts may create a 0.1-0.2° difference from previous meassuring.
Finally these tolerances have been very same from the very first XB4 which has been used successfuly by the team around the world.
As mentioned the tolerances and purpose play of the parts result in a variation of measuring results. It is enough when a cusotmer will dismount the diff bulkhead, changes the screws and tighten them in a different order to the chassis and the final toe due the sum of tolerances and tension forces in the composite parts may create a 0.1-0.2° difference from previous meassuring.
Finally these tolerances have been very same from the very first XB4 which has been used successfuly by the team around the world.
01-27-2015, 01:27 AM
#6719
Tech Rookie
Regarding the diff outdrives, these were updated to improve the strength and reliability. Extra material was added to the outdrives to certain areas which shortened the opening in the outdrives. To keep the same suspension holders and not make new ones with different suspension positions it is suggested to use middle and outer positions for the suspension pins.
01-27-2015, 02:40 AM
#6720
How about this Xray? Design a "symmetrical" RR toe block for the XB4 15, give it a different part number and call it an option part. That way you may be able to make some money and possibly keep some customers coming back. I have never seen so many ridiculous excuses made to justify a mistake. The cost associated to make good now will be far cheaper than the cost of loss of business down the track.
Please do the right thing.
Please do the right thing.