1LikesU.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing
08-27-2009, 04:12 PM
#5927
Tech Apprentice
IMO it's not broke. Don't fix it. I like VTA rules just like they are. For those who want to go slower, there are slower classes. GT3, mini cooper to name 2. Since the rules originally came about, VTA revived on-road in many parts of the country. As soon as rules get changed, racers are lost.
I know I personally don't want to have to buy more products. New batteries, voltage boosters, lead, no thank you.
Not a team driver. Traxxas, Losi, Associated, HPI, Tamiya, SMS, OU812.
I know I personally don't want to have to buy more products. New batteries, voltage boosters, lead, no thank you.
Not a team driver. Traxxas, Losi, Associated, HPI, Tamiya, SMS, OU812.
08-27-2009, 04:35 PM
#5928
I will go slower if there is a way to keep it 2c lipo. While the 1c lipo seems like a good option, it is a harder sell for newbies because you can't use that 1c lipo in off-road cars or just for bashing. I would rather local racers chip in to buy a radar gun for the track and set a speed limit than be made to buy a new motor or batteries.
08-27-2009, 04:54 PM
#5929
I can also test 1s in 13.5,17.5 and 21.5 configurations. We're actually gonna pit some 17.5 motors vs. 21.5 motors this weekend to see if our tight, technical track evens the playing field. As a club just starting out we've got every battery/motor combo known to man running on the same track.
Problem with dropping to a 1s battery...
All things being equal, people will still have access to adjustable timing ESCs. Even if we drop the battery voltage, adjustable timing still exists. Won't that defeat the purpose?
Maybe a better question is this; Are the adjustable ESCs a nationwide problem or are they just BIG problems at a small number of tracks?
Another question to ask; Was the original philosophy of VTA to compete at slower speeds with older equipment? Now how does new technology dovetail with that philosophy?
Just throwing out some obersvations since i was busy teaching while 4 pages of debate raged on this afternoon.
Problem with dropping to a 1s battery...
All things being equal, people will still have access to adjustable timing ESCs. Even if we drop the battery voltage, adjustable timing still exists. Won't that defeat the purpose?
Maybe a better question is this; Are the adjustable ESCs a nationwide problem or are they just BIG problems at a small number of tracks?
Another question to ask; Was the original philosophy of VTA to compete at slower speeds with older equipment? Now how does new technology dovetail with that philosophy?
Just throwing out some obersvations since i was busy teaching while 4 pages of debate raged on this afternoon.
08-27-2009, 04:56 PM
#5930
Geez I wish we had more time for testing before our season starts.
fwiw on our medium-sized track (40 X 65, 65' straight) my 1s / 13.5 car was only 2/10 second slower than the 2s / 21.5 "control" car. As I indicated in my write-up of our results I'd be willing to bet that if I'd actually tune my car / optimize set-up that I could bridge that 2/10 second (the control car was a very well set-up Xray) difference. Even if I can't, the times are too close to justify changing spec if the intent is to "slow down" the racing.
Also, the pretty well dialed 4-cell / 27T control car was running 10.8's. The 1s / 13.5 combo was (ultimately) far closer to the 2s / 21.5 combo.
QUICK NOTE TO THE NAYSAYERS...the class was inadvertantly "sped up" to accomodate LiPo and brushless motors (then, of course, the wonder-esc's that followed sped it up more yet) as 1s LiPo wasn't one of the options a year ago. Now it is, and they're dirt cheap. Anyone who pisses and moans about buying A $55 battery (and that's the street price of a SMC 4000 1s LiPo that only uses less than 2000mah of it's charge in 10 minutes) has completely lost the plot. Remember buying 3-4 packs to run one car...at $75-80 a pack? AND having them not last? Get a grip...we're racin' for free even if you end up buying TWO 1s LiPos.
What I'd REALLY like to test would be the 1s / 17.5 combo now, but I don't imagine we'll get the chance to do so prior to our season beginning in early October. It MIGHT be a nick slower than the 4-cell / 27T combo but I'd bet not by much (if at all).
I applaud Rob for really looking at what drove the growth of this class--a driving experience that differed substantially from the existing Stock Rubber touring class(es) and was slow enough that new drivers had a prayer of controlling the car.
fwiw on our medium-sized track (40 X 65, 65' straight) my 1s / 13.5 car was only 2/10 second slower than the 2s / 21.5 "control" car. As I indicated in my write-up of our results I'd be willing to bet that if I'd actually tune my car / optimize set-up that I could bridge that 2/10 second (the control car was a very well set-up Xray) difference. Even if I can't, the times are too close to justify changing spec if the intent is to "slow down" the racing.
Also, the pretty well dialed 4-cell / 27T control car was running 10.8's. The 1s / 13.5 combo was (ultimately) far closer to the 2s / 21.5 combo.
QUICK NOTE TO THE NAYSAYERS...the class was inadvertantly "sped up" to accomodate LiPo and brushless motors (then, of course, the wonder-esc's that followed sped it up more yet) as 1s LiPo wasn't one of the options a year ago. Now it is, and they're dirt cheap. Anyone who pisses and moans about buying A $55 battery (and that's the street price of a SMC 4000 1s LiPo that only uses less than 2000mah of it's charge in 10 minutes) has completely lost the plot. Remember buying 3-4 packs to run one car...at $75-80 a pack? AND having them not last? Get a grip...we're racin' for free even if you end up buying TWO 1s LiPos.
What I'd REALLY like to test would be the 1s / 17.5 combo now, but I don't imagine we'll get the chance to do so prior to our season beginning in early October. It MIGHT be a nick slower than the 4-cell / 27T combo but I'd bet not by much (if at all).
I applaud Rob for really looking at what drove the growth of this class--a driving experience that differed substantially from the existing Stock Rubber touring class(es) and was slow enough that new drivers had a prayer of controlling the car.
08-27-2009, 05:08 PM
#5931
Tech Apprentice
$55 battery that is useless in anything else and you didn't sat anything about the voltage booster. Since to you, it's no big deal, then I suppose it would be no big deal for you to buy everybody one of each.
08-27-2009, 05:20 PM
#5932
Do I need to look up the phone number for the WHAAAAA-mbulance?
1) voltage booster a whopping $6-7 bucks LANDED (shipping included) from Hobby King. I ordered a half-dozen or so each time.
2) ROB IS NOT PROPOSING ANY CHANGE YET, so don't get your panties in a bunch. IF there is a change, and that's by no means certain yet, he is suggesting it would take effect NEXT fall (i.e. fall '10).
Keep in mind, when the spec changed to 2s LiPo very few folks had a 2s LiPo and NO ONE had a 21.5 motor. Now I've got 2s LiPos (which were all a darn sight more than $55 too) that are useless in MY other cars because they're all 1/12 (and now a 1/10 WGT). Kinda cuts both ways. I'm encouraged that Rob is looking at maintaining the fidelity of the VTA over any individual "concerns". If you need to invest in a couple pieces of new equipment over the course of a year, guess what--that's the cost of racin'. Always has been, always will be. Still the cheapest deal in racing we've ever had in RC, at least going back the nearly quarter century I'VE been involved in the hobby.
1) voltage booster a whopping $6-7 bucks LANDED (shipping included) from Hobby King. I ordered a half-dozen or so each time.
2) ROB IS NOT PROPOSING ANY CHANGE YET, so don't get your panties in a bunch. IF there is a change, and that's by no means certain yet, he is suggesting it would take effect NEXT fall (i.e. fall '10).
Keep in mind, when the spec changed to 2s LiPo very few folks had a 2s LiPo and NO ONE had a 21.5 motor. Now I've got 2s LiPos (which were all a darn sight more than $55 too) that are useless in MY other cars because they're all 1/12 (and now a 1/10 WGT). Kinda cuts both ways. I'm encouraged that Rob is looking at maintaining the fidelity of the VTA over any individual "concerns". If you need to invest in a couple pieces of new equipment over the course of a year, guess what--that's the cost of racin'. Always has been, always will be. Still the cheapest deal in racing we've ever had in RC, at least going back the nearly quarter century I'VE been involved in the hobby.
08-27-2009, 05:25 PM
#5933
Tech Apprentice
VTA is not a beginners class. As mentioned above, there are slower classes for novice racers already in place.
Why do you need a half dozen boosters at a time? Are they that reliable? Or do you need a half dozer per car?
Why do you need a half dozen boosters at a time? Are they that reliable? Or do you need a half dozer per car?
08-27-2009, 05:32 PM
#5934
Do I need to look up the phone number for the WHAAAAA-mbulance?
1) voltage booster a whopping $6-7 bucks LANDED (shipping included) from Hobby King. I ordered a half-dozen or so each time.
2) ROB IS NOT PROPOSING ANY CHANGE YET, so don't get your panties in a bunch. IF there is a change, and that's by no means certain yet, he is suggesting it would take effect NEXT fall (i.e. fall '10).
Keep in mind, when the spec changed to 2s LiPo very few folks had a 2s LiPo and NO ONE had a 21.5 motor. Now I've got 2s LiPos (which were all a darn sight more than $55 too) that are useless in MY other cars because they're all 1/12 (and now a 1/10 WGT). Kinda cuts both ways. I'm encouraged that Rob is looking at maintaining the fidelity of the VTA over any individual "concerns". If you need to invest in a couple pieces of new equipment over the course of a year, guess what--that's the cost of racin'. Always has been, always will be. Still the cheapest deal in racing we've ever had in RC, at least going back the nearly quarter century I'VE been involved in the hobby.
1) voltage booster a whopping $6-7 bucks LANDED (shipping included) from Hobby King. I ordered a half-dozen or so each time.
2) ROB IS NOT PROPOSING ANY CHANGE YET, so don't get your panties in a bunch. IF there is a change, and that's by no means certain yet, he is suggesting it would take effect NEXT fall (i.e. fall '10).
Keep in mind, when the spec changed to 2s LiPo very few folks had a 2s LiPo and NO ONE had a 21.5 motor. Now I've got 2s LiPos (which were all a darn sight more than $55 too) that are useless in MY other cars because they're all 1/12 (and now a 1/10 WGT). Kinda cuts both ways. I'm encouraged that Rob is looking at maintaining the fidelity of the VTA over any individual "concerns". If you need to invest in a couple pieces of new equipment over the course of a year, guess what--that's the cost of racin'. Always has been, always will be. Still the cheapest deal in racing we've ever had in RC, at least going back the nearly quarter century I'VE been involved in the hobby.
Rockin Bob does have a great point. Not only do you need a battery but you need a capacitator for the spektrum reciever and faster servo. So really a $55 dollar battery is not all you need.
Oh and BTW I personally need a new charger because my charger can only do 2 to 4 cell lipos. So call the waaahhh ambulance for me too.
08-27-2009, 05:36 PM
#5936
Sorry Bob, but you were at NEITHER track where VTA was created. Nor do you, apparently, have any clue as to what spurred it's creation. I WAS there, so I'll spin a little history lesson.
VTA was created to fill TWO distinct needs in RC racing:
1) Provide a lower cost (in terms of $$ AND time invested) alternative racing format than what Touring Car had become. TC had become a complete money and time pit.
Things that created that low cost? Obsolete chassis we all had in our basements gathering dust, electronics/batteries/motors we all had weighting down the bottoms of drawers in our race boxes or workbenches at home, etc. Basically all MOST folks had to buy was a set of spec tires and wheels and a body and they were racing. THEN folks started running current chassis, but thankfully the performance advantage was negated BECAUSE AT THE LOWER SPEED none of them were being pushed to the limit, even the older chassis. THEN 2s LiPo / 21.5 showed up. I know why it did, didn't agreee with it, but it happened. THEN folks started buying mega esc's with adjusto-fiddley everything and bringing laptops to the track FOR THEIR VTA cars. Perfect. NOT.
2) To provide a SLOWER class of racing. TC had become hopelessly too fast / intimidating for new racers entering the hobby. Heck, even now I see VERY few "EXPERIENCED" racers able to cleanly run a heat in TC Stock. The class was going to be an opportunity for new racers to get into racing at a significantly reduced velocity so they had a prayer of controlling the car AND had less damage when the inevitable mistake was made. IT WAS ALSO intended as an opportunity for "experienced" racers to take a breath and travel back in time to when racing was actually FUN.
It very much WAS designed to be a "slower" alternative to TC racing. The fact that it has evolved to being very nearly as fast as Stock TC has been through misadventure rather than intent, but the fact is that it has become VERY close to the speed of TC. Having more rubber on the road seems to do more to offset TC wings than any of us had imagined.
VTA was created to fill TWO distinct needs in RC racing:
1) Provide a lower cost (in terms of $$ AND time invested) alternative racing format than what Touring Car had become. TC had become a complete money and time pit.
Things that created that low cost? Obsolete chassis we all had in our basements gathering dust, electronics/batteries/motors we all had weighting down the bottoms of drawers in our race boxes or workbenches at home, etc. Basically all MOST folks had to buy was a set of spec tires and wheels and a body and they were racing. THEN folks started running current chassis, but thankfully the performance advantage was negated BECAUSE AT THE LOWER SPEED none of them were being pushed to the limit, even the older chassis. THEN 2s LiPo / 21.5 showed up. I know why it did, didn't agreee with it, but it happened. THEN folks started buying mega esc's with adjusto-fiddley everything and bringing laptops to the track FOR THEIR VTA cars. Perfect. NOT.
2) To provide a SLOWER class of racing. TC had become hopelessly too fast / intimidating for new racers entering the hobby. Heck, even now I see VERY few "EXPERIENCED" racers able to cleanly run a heat in TC Stock. The class was going to be an opportunity for new racers to get into racing at a significantly reduced velocity so they had a prayer of controlling the car AND had less damage when the inevitable mistake was made. IT WAS ALSO intended as an opportunity for "experienced" racers to take a breath and travel back in time to when racing was actually FUN.
It very much WAS designed to be a "slower" alternative to TC racing. The fact that it has evolved to being very nearly as fast as Stock TC has been through misadventure rather than intent, but the fact is that it has become VERY close to the speed of TC. Having more rubber on the road seems to do more to offset TC wings than any of us had imagined.
08-27-2009, 05:40 PM
#5937
Rockin Bob does have a great point. Not only do you need a battery but you need a capacitator for the spektrum reciever and faster servo. So really a $55 dollar battery is not all you need.
Oh and BTW I personally need a new charger because my charger can only do 2 to 4 cell lipos. So call the waaahhh ambulance for me too.
Oh and BTW I personally need a new charger because my charger can only do 2 to 4 cell lipos. So call the waaahhh ambulance for me too.
A booster is $6.
The Spektrum capacitor is $5
We're up to $66 now...STILL less than A racing pack used to cost us just a year or two ago AND that one battery/booster/capacitor replaces the need for 3-4 of those expensive packs. And IF a change is enacted, still fully a year away.
Folks--you're crying before you've been "burnt". And unreasonably so. Period.
As far as your charger...guess you should have bought a good one. I've got 3 different LiPo chargers here and every one of 'em will charge 1s LiPo. I'd FURTHER note that every one was purchased before we even had 1s LiPo for racing.
08-27-2009, 05:42 PM
#5938
Tech Apprentice
Who was here first.
So it was intended to bring out old touring car chassis, or so you say. Tell me what old chassis did the top 5 drivers drive in the last big VTA race you went to. I'm sure you were there also.
Does that mean that the latest chassis on the market are disallowed by your take in the inception of the class.
So it was intended to bring out old touring car chassis, or so you say. Tell me what old chassis did the top 5 drivers drive in the last big VTA race you went to. I'm sure you were there also.
Does that mean that the latest chassis on the market are disallowed by your take in the inception of the class.
08-27-2009, 05:43 PM
#5939
Tech Apprentice
At our track, 17.5 stock is a second a lap faster than VTA. Seems just right to me.
08-27-2009, 05:50 PM
#5940
Who was here first.
So it was intended to bring out old touring car chassis, or so you say. Tell me what old chassis did the top 5 drivers drive in the last big VTA race you went to. I'm sure you were there also.
Does that mean that the latest chassis on the market are disallowed by your take in the inception of the class.
So it was intended to bring out old touring car chassis, or so you say. Tell me what old chassis did the top 5 drivers drive in the last big VTA race you went to. I'm sure you were there also.
Does that mean that the latest chassis on the market are disallowed by your take in the inception of the class.
If your Stock TC guys aren't running foam then they'd better pick up the pace. Here our Stock Rubber TC cars are right at a half second faster than VTA...and we don't even have the 2s / 21.5 VTA entirely figured out yet. It'll probably get closer.