63LikesThe New Werks B5 .21 Racing Engine
11-25-2009 | 08:58 PM
#860
Tech Master
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,696
From: So Cal
Here you go Tigre.
Hello rc_cal,
Thanks for back ordering one of the B5's! Regarding your questions:
1) Normal operating temperature would be between 210 to around 250'ish degree's. I'm quoting a 40+ degree operating window because there are again quite a range of variable that can affect this i.e. weather, plug choice, pipe, track size and most definitely fuel choice. Having said that temp is secondary! Always tune your engine to get the performance that you are looking for while making sure that you are still blowing some smoke. No smoke = you are going to have a problem. Once you get your engine set with the performance that you like, take the temp and then you can use that as a reference point down the road to quickly set your motor in the range that you lik.
2) The infamous break in question lol! We're a racing company and make engines for racers, what I have found is that talk to 4 different racers and you will get 4 different opinions on how to do it lol! You wanted a detailed answer though so let the book writing begin lol!
The way that I normal do it is to set the HS needle to flush with the end of the housing and then with the air filter off, fire it up and leave it on the box. Blip the throttle a couple of times and then let it come back down to idle. Then I start to screw in the idle stop screw until I see around a 2-2.5mm air gap (opening on the slide). When you are doing this your idle speed will start to increase so you are basically going to have to start richening your low speed needle a couple of hours (until you get a smooth, steady idle) then do a couple of hours on the idle stop screw and back and forth until you see the 2-2.5mm+ air gap that I mentioned. As this is a two stroke engine, performance is always dictated by air/fuel ratio and as we are now talking about the low speed needle (remember we set the HS needle flush with the end of the housing and there is no need to touch this again for a while) if you have too much fuel (rich setting) you will have a low idle, if you have too little fuel (lean setting) you will have a high idle). It basically is a no brainer if you are too rich or lean because your engine will tell you!
Once you get a steady idle going with the large air gap that I mentioned (large air gap means a lot of air flow, to get a steady idle means that to compensate you will have to dump a lot of fuel through the engine= guaranteed rich condition and you can not damage your engine right off the bat by being too lean) I idle it through the first tank on the box. This is done basically to pump a lot of oil through the engine to flush out any metal particles in the engine and remove the minute bit of metal particles that are always released initially during break in.
Now with the radio gear on, engine off and the slide closed look down the throat of the carb and slowly start to pull the trigger. Take note of the how much throttle you are giving at the point that the low speed needle (which is connected to the slide) comes out of the spray bar (the hollow tube) on the opposite side of the carb. We will use this as a referance for tuning later on but basically what is happening is that during the range of throttle movement that the low speed needle is embedded in the spray bar, the low speed needle will affect fuel delivery (for the purist we both know that this is a simplified explanation as the fuel first travels through the HS needle circuit before going to the LS but since we already set the HS to a rich setting and will not be touching this for a while it's pretty much a mute point). At the point that it is out of the spray bar the fuel delivery (or tune) is affected solely by the high speed needle.
Then I re-install the air filter, fire up the engine and toss it on the ground. Start slowly doing figure eights at say 3 to 4 mph until you run through the tank. Then for the next tank i fire the engine up again and back the idle screw out a couple of hours. You will immediately hear the idle speed start to reduce, to compensate for this I then lean the low speed needle a couple of hours until I again hear a smooth steady idle. Once I have this I then start doing figure eights again but now a little bit fasted until the tank is empty. Next tank fire up the engine, back idle screw out a couple of hours, lean LS needle a couple of hours, do figure eights a couple of mph faster.
Basically what I'm doing with this system is slowly reducing the amount of lubricant being pumped through the engine while at the same time slowly increasing the amount of load that is being put on the engine. This I keep on repeating until I get to approximately the point that I'm pulling the trigger far enough that I know the low speed needle is being pulled out of the spray bar (remember we checked this initially while we had the air filter off) at which point your air gap (the amount the slide is help open by the idle stop screw) will have been reduced to aprox. 1-1.5mm.
Once we get to this point we now need to be concerned about the HS needle. What I then do is re-fuel and fire the vehicle up, putt it around for a couple of minutes to heat saturate the case and the chassis and then do a quick high speed run around the track (do not hold it maxed out for a long time on the straight, this is bad). I pull it back in, temp the engine and adjust the HS needle so that I see right around 200 degrees. Then let the engine drop back down to idle and see how the idle performance looks. If the idle is now fast (it has now increased) this means that you need to richen your low speed needle (for the amount of air flowing into the engine, there is too little fuel flowing into it = lean condition) don't touch the idle screw just the LS needle. If the idle is low this means that you now need to lean your low speed needle (for the amount of air flowing into the engine there is too much fuel flowing into it = rich condition) again don't touch the idle screw.
Then I toss the car on the track for another 6-8 tanks with the engine running around 200 degrees as explained above running close to race speed but rolling off the throttle mid way down the straight. Once I'm done with the 6-8 tanks doing this we would have run around 12 to 15 tanks total through the engine in all of the steps above. I now consider the engine pretty much broken in and I'll get close to race tune on the HS setting the engine around 220 degrees. Again check to see what happens to the idle speed and adjust your low speed needle to compensate if it is high or low. Run a further 6 or so tanks through the engine driving it as you normally would and you are good to go to full race tune which will be in the 220 to say mid 240'ish range and I would consider the engine broken in and ready to be pounded on.
A long explanation but using this system helps avoid one of the most common mistakes faced by newer tuners which is setting their low speed needle too lean because they have too little air gap (the carb is hardly open help open by the idle stop screw so to compensate they set the LS needle super lean easily causing damage to the engine).
I also like to use this system because I often end up tuning and/or breaking in a lot of different types of engine with people. Using this system i never even worry about knowing what the factory needle settings are or anything along those lines. I just set the HS and LS flush with the end of the housing, set the air gap so that the slide is open 1-1.5mm and fire the engine up. How it idles immediately tells me if the LS needle is too lean or rich so I set this, then check the temp after a high speed run, adjust the HS needle to be in the 220'ish range, check idle speed and set LS so that it is smooth and steady and the engine is ready to go. Takes about 4-5 minutes total on an engine that could be completely out of whack and I've never even seen or ran before lol!
3) Ours, Sirio and possibly some of the Orion ones I would think.
4) Again we did all of our testing with our own pipes i.e. the 2013 and 3014 (3 chamber pipe) but I would start out with the JP3 initially and then test the others. The JP 4 and I'm assuming the 3023 are 3 chamber pipes so these will probably be more restrictive slightly reducing the power band but increasing the fuel economy so depending on what organization you run under (i.e. if use of these pipes is required) and if you feel the engine is over powered for you these can also be a worth while item to test.
Hope this helps!
Regards,
Ron Hopkins
Werks Racing
Thanks for back ordering one of the B5's! Regarding your questions:
1) Normal operating temperature would be between 210 to around 250'ish degree's. I'm quoting a 40+ degree operating window because there are again quite a range of variable that can affect this i.e. weather, plug choice, pipe, track size and most definitely fuel choice. Having said that temp is secondary! Always tune your engine to get the performance that you are looking for while making sure that you are still blowing some smoke. No smoke = you are going to have a problem. Once you get your engine set with the performance that you like, take the temp and then you can use that as a reference point down the road to quickly set your motor in the range that you lik.
2) The infamous break in question lol! We're a racing company and make engines for racers, what I have found is that talk to 4 different racers and you will get 4 different opinions on how to do it lol! You wanted a detailed answer though so let the book writing begin lol!
The way that I normal do it is to set the HS needle to flush with the end of the housing and then with the air filter off, fire it up and leave it on the box. Blip the throttle a couple of times and then let it come back down to idle. Then I start to screw in the idle stop screw until I see around a 2-2.5mm air gap (opening on the slide). When you are doing this your idle speed will start to increase so you are basically going to have to start richening your low speed needle a couple of hours (until you get a smooth, steady idle) then do a couple of hours on the idle stop screw and back and forth until you see the 2-2.5mm+ air gap that I mentioned. As this is a two stroke engine, performance is always dictated by air/fuel ratio and as we are now talking about the low speed needle (remember we set the HS needle flush with the end of the housing and there is no need to touch this again for a while) if you have too much fuel (rich setting) you will have a low idle, if you have too little fuel (lean setting) you will have a high idle). It basically is a no brainer if you are too rich or lean because your engine will tell you!
Once you get a steady idle going with the large air gap that I mentioned (large air gap means a lot of air flow, to get a steady idle means that to compensate you will have to dump a lot of fuel through the engine= guaranteed rich condition and you can not damage your engine right off the bat by being too lean) I idle it through the first tank on the box. This is done basically to pump a lot of oil through the engine to flush out any metal particles in the engine and remove the minute bit of metal particles that are always released initially during break in.
Now with the radio gear on, engine off and the slide closed look down the throat of the carb and slowly start to pull the trigger. Take note of the how much throttle you are giving at the point that the low speed needle (which is connected to the slide) comes out of the spray bar (the hollow tube) on the opposite side of the carb. We will use this as a referance for tuning later on but basically what is happening is that during the range of throttle movement that the low speed needle is embedded in the spray bar, the low speed needle will affect fuel delivery (for the purist we both know that this is a simplified explanation as the fuel first travels through the HS needle circuit before going to the LS but since we already set the HS to a rich setting and will not be touching this for a while it's pretty much a mute point). At the point that it is out of the spray bar the fuel delivery (or tune) is affected solely by the high speed needle.
Then I re-install the air filter, fire up the engine and toss it on the ground. Start slowly doing figure eights at say 3 to 4 mph until you run through the tank. Then for the next tank i fire the engine up again and back the idle screw out a couple of hours. You will immediately hear the idle speed start to reduce, to compensate for this I then lean the low speed needle a couple of hours until I again hear a smooth steady idle. Once I have this I then start doing figure eights again but now a little bit fasted until the tank is empty. Next tank fire up the engine, back idle screw out a couple of hours, lean LS needle a couple of hours, do figure eights a couple of mph faster.
Basically what I'm doing with this system is slowly reducing the amount of lubricant being pumped through the engine while at the same time slowly increasing the amount of load that is being put on the engine. This I keep on repeating until I get to approximately the point that I'm pulling the trigger far enough that I know the low speed needle is being pulled out of the spray bar (remember we checked this initially while we had the air filter off) at which point your air gap (the amount the slide is help open by the idle stop screw) will have been reduced to aprox. 1-1.5mm.
Once we get to this point we now need to be concerned about the HS needle. What I then do is re-fuel and fire the vehicle up, putt it around for a couple of minutes to heat saturate the case and the chassis and then do a quick high speed run around the track (do not hold it maxed out for a long time on the straight, this is bad). I pull it back in, temp the engine and adjust the HS needle so that I see right around 200 degrees. Then let the engine drop back down to idle and see how the idle performance looks. If the idle is now fast (it has now increased) this means that you need to richen your low speed needle (for the amount of air flowing into the engine, there is too little fuel flowing into it = lean condition) don't touch the idle screw just the LS needle. If the idle is low this means that you now need to lean your low speed needle (for the amount of air flowing into the engine there is too much fuel flowing into it = rich condition) again don't touch the idle screw.
Then I toss the car on the track for another 6-8 tanks with the engine running around 200 degrees as explained above running close to race speed but rolling off the throttle mid way down the straight. Once I'm done with the 6-8 tanks doing this we would have run around 12 to 15 tanks total through the engine in all of the steps above. I now consider the engine pretty much broken in and I'll get close to race tune on the HS setting the engine around 220 degrees. Again check to see what happens to the idle speed and adjust your low speed needle to compensate if it is high or low. Run a further 6 or so tanks through the engine driving it as you normally would and you are good to go to full race tune which will be in the 220 to say mid 240'ish range and I would consider the engine broken in and ready to be pounded on.
A long explanation but using this system helps avoid one of the most common mistakes faced by newer tuners which is setting their low speed needle too lean because they have too little air gap (the carb is hardly open help open by the idle stop screw so to compensate they set the LS needle super lean easily causing damage to the engine).
I also like to use this system because I often end up tuning and/or breaking in a lot of different types of engine with people. Using this system i never even worry about knowing what the factory needle settings are or anything along those lines. I just set the HS and LS flush with the end of the housing, set the air gap so that the slide is open 1-1.5mm and fire the engine up. How it idles immediately tells me if the LS needle is too lean or rich so I set this, then check the temp after a high speed run, adjust the HS needle to be in the 220'ish range, check idle speed and set LS so that it is smooth and steady and the engine is ready to go. Takes about 4-5 minutes total on an engine that could be completely out of whack and I've never even seen or ran before lol!
3) Ours, Sirio and possibly some of the Orion ones I would think.
4) Again we did all of our testing with our own pipes i.e. the 2013 and 3014 (3 chamber pipe) but I would start out with the JP3 initially and then test the others. The JP 4 and I'm assuming the 3023 are 3 chamber pipes so these will probably be more restrictive slightly reducing the power band but increasing the fuel economy so depending on what organization you run under (i.e. if use of these pipes is required) and if you feel the engine is over powered for you these can also be a worth while item to test.
Hope this helps!
Regards,
Ron Hopkins
Werks Racing
11-26-2009 | 03:07 AM
#861
Markhat250... i'd say your HS needle setting depends on your pipe here in AZ. I'd been running about 220 slightly leaner than flush with the 2050. I put the 2013 on and had to lean it out about 9 hrs! Tuned at SRS today, because it'll be the exact same weather on saturday...that way i can sleep for a couple hours after i get off work
and i had to get a bit leaner on the top end... so it really depends on the pipe, the weather, your fuel, etc etc. i came off the track at 219 again... last week, i came off a bit warmer. I'll take a look at your setup on saturday... I won't be racing against you
The other novice guys with B5's might not be so lucky LOL
By the way, thanks to everyone on this thread for all the pipe data here for the B5. I didn't think there was that much pop with the 2013 at first, but now that i got it tuned, SO MUCH LOW END! $@e#%@! i tell you what...i have enough poop to triple with a 2ft. run up at 1/2 throttle... i could probably put it over the fence and land on the on-road track if i was silly enough to try. Today i made a quad out of a double-double, and still overshot the downside of the last double!!! I doubt any nitro engine will ever match brushless in the high speed department, but a 2013 on a B5 is almost as snappy on the low end
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone
and i had to get a bit leaner on the top end... so it really depends on the pipe, the weather, your fuel, etc etc. i came off the track at 219 again... last week, i came off a bit warmer. I'll take a look at your setup on saturday... I won't be racing against you The other novice guys with B5's might not be so lucky LOL By the way, thanks to everyone on this thread for all the pipe data here for the B5. I didn't think there was that much pop with the 2013 at first, but now that i got it tuned, SO MUCH LOW END! $@e#%@! i tell you what...i have enough poop to triple with a 2ft. run up at 1/2 throttle... i could probably put it over the fence and land on the on-road track if i was silly enough to try. Today i made a quad out of a double-double, and still overshot the downside of the last double!!! I doubt any nitro engine will ever match brushless in the high speed department, but a 2013 on a B5 is almost as snappy on the low end
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone
11-26-2009 | 08:04 AM
#863
Tech Master
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,696
From: So Cal
bguad- I like to have the fuel nipple pointing down. There is less of a chance that the fuel line would slip of the nipple since it is straight to carb instead of curved. All you have to do is loosen the high speed needle assembly (the brass part on the carb) with either a small wrench or set of pliers, place the fuel nipple in the position desired and re-tighten the high speed needle assembly. Do not over tighten it because it could cause an air leak. Snug is just fine.
11-26-2009 | 09:39 AM
#866
Hey guys, I just wanted to put up a quick post first of all wishing you all a happy Thanksgiving and secondly thanking everyone for being so helpful on this thread! It seems like we have a little community of hardcore racers on here that are always willing to take the time to share information and help each other out and for that I'm thankful!
For any of you that might be looking for or know some one looking for and awesome practice engine or small/medium track/indoor motor we are currently running a special with A-main on our 3 port B3-Pro with composite carb (same carb as on the B5) for a mere $149.99! It's an awesome engine that has similar characteristics as the B5 and works with all of the same pipes too so you could use the same equipment when swapping between the two!
Thanks again guys and enjoy turkey day!
Regards,
Ron Hopkins
Werks Racing
For any of you that might be looking for or know some one looking for and awesome practice engine or small/medium track/indoor motor we are currently running a special with A-main on our 3 port B3-Pro with composite carb (same carb as on the B5) for a mere $149.99! It's an awesome engine that has similar characteristics as the B5 and works with all of the same pipes too so you could use the same equipment when swapping between the two!
Thanks again guys and enjoy turkey day!
Regards,
Ron Hopkins
Werks Racing
11-26-2009 | 11:08 AM
#867
Tech Adept
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 118
I have an older B3 Pro that was a hand me down from my brother.He gave it to me when I first started racing nitro.Its still an awesome motor.The first time I ran it was at our big spring race here in Ontario at Tillsonburg 2 years ago.Luckily before I tried to run it we noticed the carb was loose.We took it out and found a chunk broken out of the bottom of it,looks like someone my brother lent it too overtightened the pinch bolt.The peice of carb was still in the crank case so its a real good thing I didnt try to start it.We used some CA to hold it in and that lasted for 3 full race weekends before it came loose again.LOL.I now have another carb and pinch bolt to put on it and will keep it as a back up motor.I cant wait to try out a new B5.Hopefully I can get one before Motorama.
11-26-2009 | 11:48 AM
#868
Tech Regular
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 335
11-26-2009 | 12:43 PM
#869
I just got done breaking mine in. Heres how I did it. After intial idle tank. I let it cool about 30 mins. Restarted tossed on the ground ran slow figure 8ts until temp reached 200 degrees. Let cool back down to 100 did this for 6 tanks gradually tuning and pickin up speed each tank. Last 2 tanks short burst of full throttle. Temp stayed at 240 and below, nice cloud of smoke on exceleration. All done and ready to race. You should use a little less than half a gallon of gas to do this.
11-26-2009 | 08:20 PM
#870
Tech Addict
iTrader: (22)
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 587
I still have my B3 With 7 gallons and it is still runing strong! It was my favorite truggy engine before the B5 came out. For $149 you will not find a better engine anywhere, the B3's are no joke! Very fast engines a LOT of bottom end and Amazing runtime.. Werks are like LEXUS.....Amazing quality,performance and reliability at half the price of a BMW!!lol..