Transponder Hack
#61
#63
Tech Addict
iTrader: (105)
From a cost to racer point of view (this has been briefly covered earlier in the thread) 10 key ‘hand counting’ with numbers clearly affixed to the car is the way to go.
this is not to difficult to do but generally requires a second person in race control to count the laps. When i race directed back in the late 90’s we ran this way. The draw back is that laps could get missed if people got distracted.
for club racing the .5 second that can be missed with hand counting does not matter, larger events need the accuracy of the transponder loop.
the ease (as stated earlier) of the transponders counting laps is very nice for the race director.
to the original title of ‘is there a transponder hack’ nope (for all the reasons stated above.
i have heard from people i know who run/bike that there are ‘passive systems’ that are much cheaper for the individual (given out in the event bibs) but the counters are exponentially more expensive.
this is not to difficult to do but generally requires a second person in race control to count the laps. When i race directed back in the late 90’s we ran this way. The draw back is that laps could get missed if people got distracted.
for club racing the .5 second that can be missed with hand counting does not matter, larger events need the accuracy of the transponder loop.
the ease (as stated earlier) of the transponders counting laps is very nice for the race director.
to the original title of ‘is there a transponder hack’ nope (for all the reasons stated above.
i have heard from people i know who run/bike that there are ‘passive systems’ that are much cheaper for the individual (given out in the event bibs) but the counters are exponentially more expensive.
#64
Tech Elite
iTrader: (16)
From a cost to racer point of view (this has been briefly covered earlier in the thread) 10 key ‘hand counting’ with numbers clearly affixed to the car is the way to go.
this is not to difficult to do but generally requires a second person in race control to count the laps. When i race directed back in the late 90’s we ran this way. The draw back is that laps could get missed if people got distracted.
for club racing the .5 second that can be missed with hand counting does not matter, larger events need the accuracy of the transponder loop.
the ease (as stated earlier) of the transponders counting laps is very nice for the race director.
to the original title of ‘is there a transponder hack’ nope (for all the reasons stated above.
i have heard from people i know who run/bike that there are ‘passive systems’ that are much cheaper for the individual (given out in the event bibs) but the counters are exponentially more expensive.
this is not to difficult to do but generally requires a second person in race control to count the laps. When i race directed back in the late 90’s we ran this way. The draw back is that laps could get missed if people got distracted.
for club racing the .5 second that can be missed with hand counting does not matter, larger events need the accuracy of the transponder loop.
the ease (as stated earlier) of the transponders counting laps is very nice for the race director.
to the original title of ‘is there a transponder hack’ nope (for all the reasons stated above.
i have heard from people i know who run/bike that there are ‘passive systems’ that are much cheaper for the individual (given out in the event bibs) but the counters are exponentially more expensive.
#65
Tech Apprentice
The other system that is used by a few tracks and much cheaper is iLap. It is IR based. The decoder is a few hundred dollars and the transponders are about $35. Is it cheaper than MyLaps? Yes, on a per unit basis. But given it requires line of sight, mounting it in each car is more involved than a MyLaps transponder. My local track uses iLap, so I’ve got to have the transponder either mounted outside the body or through a windshield pointing straight up to be read properly. With MyLaps, I’d be more open to just using one transponder and move it between cars as I don’t need as critical a mounting setup. With iLap, I have transponders for each car since it’s too much of a pain to swap between and get them reading consistently. And if they are mounted on top of the body, they are more likely to be damaged and need to be replaced. So, is it really cheaper than MyLaps? No.
I find it slightly ironic that some complain about a single$100 piece of equipment, that is effectively the “ticket” to participate in racing their $300 to $900 rc car.
Technically, it’s the cost of participation in organized racing. And you only need to pay it once per car. Average out per use, and the cost becomes insignificant.
Maybe some are forgetting the overall cost of the complete integrated system of software, loop, decoder, etc. How much is that?
That cost is almost entirely absorbed by the club or track facility. Where are the complaints about that?
I think some are taking for granted a system that works near flawlessly, keeps data accurately, times precisely, and helps organize so many people at so many events.
From that perspective, I’m thankful I only have to pay $100 to have the privilege of this technology and reliability.
I Use to race at a track where an employee had to hit number keys as cars wizzed by. Then a track where you were a numbskull if you forgot to put the transponder, the size of a micro servo, back in it charging dock after your heat. When personal transponders came out, it was glorious. I think complaining about what we have now is ignorant of how far it’s come and how good we have it.
Technically, it’s the cost of participation in organized racing. And you only need to pay it once per car. Average out per use, and the cost becomes insignificant.
Maybe some are forgetting the overall cost of the complete integrated system of software, loop, decoder, etc. How much is that?
That cost is almost entirely absorbed by the club or track facility. Where are the complaints about that?
I think some are taking for granted a system that works near flawlessly, keeps data accurately, times precisely, and helps organize so many people at so many events.
From that perspective, I’m thankful I only have to pay $100 to have the privilege of this technology and reliability.
I Use to race at a track where an employee had to hit number keys as cars wizzed by. Then a track where you were a numbskull if you forgot to put the transponder, the size of a micro servo, back in it charging dock after your heat. When personal transponders came out, it was glorious. I think complaining about what we have now is ignorant of how far it’s come and how good we have it.
#66
We had a learning curve with ilaps. Now we are able to mount the PT almost anywhere (low on the chassis, sometimes under the painted hood, usually in same location as amb/mylaps) and it will still read accurately. Maybe the key to ilaps is on how the readers on the overhead bracket are installed.
I cannot tell the difference if I have ilaps or mylaps/amb on my car
I cannot tell the difference if I have ilaps or mylaps/amb on my car
#67
Tech Apprentice
#69
As a designer of the whole system they have the right to do that to rule out others copying transponders in a bad way. It is not nice but the step was already set over a decade ago with a transponder exchange program which still exists. Somehow people can complain about this one in more than a decade action but easilly buy new cars, radio equipment, motors and tires every year.
#70
This is actually right in my wheel house. I ran a timing software company for about 17 years and we were a distributor for MyLaps, as well as others. We had about 1600 customers paying about $750/months for our software in 70 different countries. Go karts, motocross, full size race tracks, shit even the Nurburgring used us.
Across all of those sports, Mylaps was always the heavy hitter. It cost the most by a long shot but man was it reliable. It was also good over 300mph which most wouldn't touch. There's nothing particularly innovative about it until you get into the big money stuff, GPS tracking, having 20 loops on your track, automated light controls, a central server to track all the decoders and ancillary devices. None of that really matters to RC.
There are tons of other viable timing hardware companies. Tag Heuer, DeHaardt, Pixel, LapSnapper, Race Result, Apex, Alien RFID.... All of them work, none of them were as reliable as MyLaps. I can tell you from the millions of laps our customers logged we hardly ever got a support call from a MyLaps customer. But they're still over priced mainly because of the market penetration they have. No track is going to alienate themselves by not having a ML decoder onsite. The only one I would think would have a shot at eating into their market is the RFID guys. Xponders are seriously $2 a pop and they're a small sticker you slap on the car. They're super resilient too. Only downside is you need an over head gantry for the antenna, doable but not idea. But at $2 a piece you could just give them a sticker with their entry fee. With all that said, that's just the hardware, there's a ton of software to manage race days, registration, live timing over web sockets, scoreboards, top times, yada yada yada...
Across all of those sports, Mylaps was always the heavy hitter. It cost the most by a long shot but man was it reliable. It was also good over 300mph which most wouldn't touch. There's nothing particularly innovative about it until you get into the big money stuff, GPS tracking, having 20 loops on your track, automated light controls, a central server to track all the decoders and ancillary devices. None of that really matters to RC.
There are tons of other viable timing hardware companies. Tag Heuer, DeHaardt, Pixel, LapSnapper, Race Result, Apex, Alien RFID.... All of them work, none of them were as reliable as MyLaps. I can tell you from the millions of laps our customers logged we hardly ever got a support call from a MyLaps customer. But they're still over priced mainly because of the market penetration they have. No track is going to alienate themselves by not having a ML decoder onsite. The only one I would think would have a shot at eating into their market is the RFID guys. Xponders are seriously $2 a pop and they're a small sticker you slap on the car. They're super resilient too. Only downside is you need an over head gantry for the antenna, doable but not idea. But at $2 a piece you could just give them a sticker with their entry fee. With all that said, that's just the hardware, there's a ton of software to manage race days, registration, live timing over web sockets, scoreboards, top times, yada yada yada...
#71
As a designer of the whole system they have the right to do that to rule out others copying transponders in a bad way. It is not nice but the step was already set over a decade ago with a transponder exchange program which still exists. Somehow people can complain about this one in more than a decade action but easilly buy new cars, radio equipment, motors and tires every year.
#72
Tech Champion
iTrader: (2)
Aside from the radio every single item you mentioned is a wear and tear item, to which some would even argue the sensors do wear out. I actually don’t see many racers buying radios every year but even if they did they don’t have to buy a new radio for every car they own.
#73
Aside from the radio every single item you mentioned is a wear and tear item, to which some would even argue the sensors do wear out. I actually don’t see many racers buying radios every year but even if they did they don’t have to buy a new radio for every car they own.
#74
Tech Apprentice
As a designer of the whole system they have the right to do that to rule out others copying transponders in a bad way. It is not nice but the step was already set over a decade ago with a transponder exchange program which still exists. Somehow people can complain about this one in more than a decade action but easilly buy new cars, radio equipment, motors and tires every year.
I only complain about it because it made the amb house transponder set obsolete.
Those of us that are already into racing, $110 for a transponder doesn't seem terrible. But to a dad that want to try racing with his 2 kids on the weekends, it adds a huge expense.
#75
Tech Apprentice
I've got a couple ideas to solve the expensive transponder issue.
1. Build an open source decoder that will read mylaps transponders as well as open source transponders. Hardware cost could be brought down significantly.
2. Live time supports running multiple loops, will it support running 2 different decoders doing this? Could you run mylaps and trackmate at the same time?
3. Custom firmware for the mylaps decoders to open them back up to detect older transponders.
1. Build an open source decoder that will read mylaps transponders as well as open source transponders. Hardware cost could be brought down significantly.
2. Live time supports running multiple loops, will it support running 2 different decoders doing this? Could you run mylaps and trackmate at the same time?
3. Custom firmware for the mylaps decoders to open them back up to detect older transponders.