Query on Firmware update
 

Hi gents,

Just updated my MT12 to Edge TX 3.3 via the Express LRS configurator but when I go to the version page, it still says I'm running "2.10.0-nightly". I've tried reflashing and selected the Erase before flash option on the configurator on the second time around but the transmitter is still displaying 2.10.0-nightly. Am I doing something wrong?

EdgeTX and ELRS are completely different systems.
EdgeTX = Radio OS
ELRS = RF Protocol

You can check the ELRS version using ExpressLRS lua.
SYS > ExpressLRS

Following this topic for a while I wonder if people are really into this open source thing or if they want to go with the hype of it.

There's a lack right now, because there aren't many surface folks who have the depth of experience in ETX/ELRS and who youtube. So you have the FPV Quad guys who don't know surface going on about it, and some surface guys trying it out, but lacking deep experience in a radio OS which is really different from anything else used for most surface applications (the Scale semi/construction guys have been running OpenTX/EdgeTX and the spiritual descendent ETHOS for some years due to their need for channels and switches beyond measure)

I personally do think the radio will be a major disruption in the market long-term. It won't be short term largely because of the learning curve and the fact that EdgeTX is not well adapted to the surface needs yet. Ignore the influencers, they will be onto something else the moment the new hotness in the FPV market drops (RadioMaster hasn't released an ELRS Gemini radio yet, so when that arrives the MT12 will go back on Bardwell's shelf and he'll focus on the latest & greatest in his actual interest area).

Note that Bardwell is functionally part of RadioMaster's marketing department. He has a longstanding business relationship with them over the Bardwell Edition TX16's.

The MT12 brings a few things to the table.

1. The ability to switch between lots of channels and fast response quickly when running ELRS, even on the same receiver (only have a spare 14ch receiver? Guess what, it can run 1000Hz RF and 400Hz servos so you can stuff it in your race platform in a pinch).

2. Telemetry. Yeah, I know folks don't really take it seriously yet in the surface world. But it's going to tell you if your pack is failing before you know otherwise. Getting excess sag in your qualifiers? Swap out the pack before the mains. Drop a current sensor in when you are doing your setup & practice runs and you will be able to tell if the old or cheap pack can keep up with your motor/ESC, or if you need a higher-C pack, just by monitoring peak amp draw. Same goes for timing changes, you will tell if you are pulling more power or not from telemetry. Same thing for RPM telemetry once sensors become available.

3. Toss those RTR radios without spending extra. Using the 4-in-1 (either internally or as a module) lets you ditch all those RTR radios without having to spend on new receivers. This is 100% where the biggest disruption will be, much as it has proven in the fixed wing world. As the MPM project adds more surface protocol support (and that's actively happening), this becomes easier and easier. Now that you have one radio for all your RTR's, why not use it for your other stuff too?

4. A race ready radio for those on a budget. FlySky has already been disruptive here and I expect the MT12 to severely disrupt Noble sales since you avoid some of the pain points of the FlySky radios (namely the loss of model memory when updating firmware and the compatibility breaks between AFHDS 2A, ANT and AFHDS 3 radios, none of which can use the other's receivers. MT12 supports both AFHDS 2A and AFHDS3 via modules today).

5. Speed of development. Features will come quickly once requested.

There are downsides of course.

1. Complex programming. It's not nearly as bad as folks think, but EdgeTX is quite complex and has a learning curve. Especially since it uses terms that are quite different from most surface radios (and I'll note are also different from most other air radios, weight (ETX) vs rate (Air) vs EPA (surface) for example).

2. It's a 1.0 product. There's definitely some room for improvement in the physical design of the radio. Control layout, trim mapping, etc. There will be mods available (some already out there) and there's a lot of customization under the hood so you can readily adapt the radio to your needs, but on the flip side there are several areas where the radio is just not well laid out (Switch B, no lefty mode, the damned separate charge & data USB-C connectors that RM seems to love for some reason)

3. It's not a high-end radio, despite some claims. The MT12 is in RadioMaster's midline range with the Boxer, Zorro and TX12mII stick radios. It's not going to kill off the 10PX or Sanwa equivalent anytime soon. But if it sells, there will be an MT16 targeting the higher-end market for sure.

4. Fast moving firmware. Yeah, updating will become painful for some. There is a point where you just do set & forget unless there's a bug needing addressing.

3Djc is one of the core ETX Devs. Several of them participate heavily on the RCG threads (pfeerick is another). That post chof references is what the Devs have said.

So you have upgraded your ELRS module in the radio (ELRS 3.3), not the EdgeTX (which is updated via EdgeTX Buddy and has a latest version of 2.10 RC)

The open source nature of EdgeTX and ELRS will draw in some of us... mostly us geeks. At the moment the MT12 is likely only appealing to early adopters or those wanting a new toy to play with. Over time the ecosystem will grow and Lua scripts will be developed that make setting up vehicles for different styles (racing, crawling, bashing, etc) much easier and as easy or easier than other systems. This will take time but it was the evolution that happened with air transmitters.

I bought the MT12 because it was interesting, I'm a geek and at the cost eh why not. The MT12 features and capabilities of low latency at the sub $150 price beats all other systems on the market today. The draw back is the steep learning curve to simply setup a vehicle. This will change over time.

If there is decent adoption of the MT12 I see an updated version not too far out where the physical design is updated based on feedback and a color screen is added and then a touch screen. All in good time.

Expanding on my telemetry comments above.

The race community will end up taking advantage of advanced telemetry once folks start to realize how much tuning data they have there.

It's not so much about what data you are monitoring during the race (pack state, pack/ESC/motor temp and voltage vs throttle are all you likely need, to be alerted early if something is starting to fail)

It's about tuning. Full size racing uses telemetry data heavily for tuning. not just lap times and feel.

Knowing what your ESC and motor are doing (RPM, current, voltage, temperature), vs throttle & wheel position (inputs are recorded), vs wheel speeds, vs G's in a turn (you can literally record how much grip you have, just like full scale. This is a standard measure of grip on full size cars) and even servo telemetry (load, position, etc) to determine if you are over-stressing your steering servo. All of this is possible and I expect it's going to become standard for setup & tuning as higher-end racers realize they can get better data about how each tuning change affects the actual car performance.

I can understand that but in this topic it looks like some people are not realy into this open source counting alle the issues and misunderstandings.
It is like jailbreaking an iPhone and not knowing what to do with it but it sounds tough to have a jail braked iPhone.
Still I stand to my point that at the end you just use a transmitter like any other transmitter to control a model.

Well, not exactly like going to the effort of jail breaking a phone. Open Source is so much more than a buzz word that is used. The internet is ran on top of open source as do most enterprises today. The fact of the radio system OS and protocol being open source is meaningful to a handful but the majority do not care and just want a transmitter they can pick up and go with.

Not sure about "all of the issues" you mention, but I'm sure there are some and people are having a difficult time with setup and use. Today MT12 has a steep learning curve to use the advanced functions. However the very basic of setup and drive is not hard and will get easier in time. I think one of the most confusing issues is the 2 versions of ELRS and 4-in-1 base transmitter. I think this is causing the most buyer remorse/confusion.

Telemetry has been available for RC cars for 20 years. Major players offer/have offered it. It has not demonstrated any benefits for RC cars so far.

Telemetry has been available but...

Limited exposure and capabilities
High cost sensors for limited functionality

When I searched for telemetry options a year ago before I bought a Futaba transmitter the options were very limited. Even with the Futaba the actual capabilities are very limited (voltage, RPM, Temperature) and the sensors are expensive. Benefits of telemetry on current offerings is actually from the 2-way communication of being able to configure the same brand servo settings which is nice if you pay the premium for the same brand servo if they have one available for your needs.

A huge benefit of the ELRS protocol being open source and documented is that third parties can make sensors and other devices that use the protocol and can communicate with the transmitter opening up a whole new world of possibilities to surface that have been available for planes, helicopter and drone use for a long time.

I was getting g-force readings and current draw from an Eagle Tree system in 2004. Novak made the Sentry system in the late 00s. Neither company exists any more. Futaba barely scratch the surface of the capabilities of the earlier systems.

Also 2-way telemetry is banned in racing.

Yes 2-way/live changes is not allowed in racing. It is allowed for non-racing and those that want the capability.

I agree that telemetry is nothing new, and you helped make my case of limited availability, functionality with current offerings.

I'm not trying to push the MT12. It's not for everyone and not everyone will find it interesting. However it is a new option with a lot of potential.

It depends of how technical you are. Yes, taking a Futaba transmitter with telemetry options the sensors are expensive and the options are limited. Taking some universal datalogging hardware with software you can setup as you want you can do a lot more. I have played with a datalogger having 1 timer input, 8 analogue inputs and 8 digital inputs and gave me a lot of info. It was very useful with the engine development with which I was involved by then.
New project comes alive. - R/C Tech Forums (rctech.net)
When making small mods or change engines with different setups/materials it was good to see if they improve by mainly comparing the acceleration graph and top speed.

Is telemetry for the average driver useful? When racing nitro cars keeping an eye on the temperature is handy but basically due the limited options I think it is more a gimmick.