CloudLaps, A decoderless solution for laptiming
 

Dear All,

Allow me to introduce you this new Lap timing solution. Designed, manufactured tested and supported in Europe. The basic idea was to create a transponder ,that require no expensive decoders, thus bringing the lap timing as an opportunity to a lot broader audience,either as a backyard bashing, or as a pro racer's accessory. Also capable of hosting complete races with sector times, and printouts.
It works with magnetic field detection, and there are 2 variants currently. One, the basic model is capable of reading lap times, the Pro variant can read up to 9 sector times as well. Works though Wifi, so the "decoder" is your smartphone, or your wifi router, depends on the transmission's range that is required. The software is cloud based, so you can access it anywhere with a solid internet connection, may that be out in the field, or in town.

For more information, check out our website, or ask any question, that you might have here.

Norbert from CloudLaps.
https://cdn.shortpixel.ai/client/q_g...colors-pro.png

Not to tear you down but...

1) Most tracks have an AMB system and most racers have a personal transponder which is worldwide accepted.
2) Mabe something for personal training for those who have no 24/7 AMB system online
3) I read of the thickness of the magnetical tape, that could be dangerous with onroad racing, when hitting the tape and so launched in he air.
4) the tape is 3 meter long, most onroad tracks are 4 to 6 meter wide....
5) Nice to have sector times, how does it see the sectors and how does it know where to start? What happens when it misses a tape?

This looks cool especially the idea of being able to cheaply and easily add sector split times. For indoor tracks it could be possible to build a strip into the the underside of a jump takeoff or other track features too. From the look of this system it would be no problem to just run more tape if needed to cover the track width.

For me personally, many of the situations where I'd want to use this for practice would be without internet access on outdoor tracks. Would be great to have a way to use this without an internet connection.

i think he was saying you could use your phone maybe using the WiFi tether ? It’s definitely interesting for the practice aspect or maybe for mini z ?

That’s pretty interesting. I assume the magnet excites some coils and depending on the sequence they are excited determines the zones.
Something like a magnet with 3 polarities and 3 coils. 1 bit for direction. I know the math isnt perfect but I’ll bet it something like that.

I can’t figure out the size of the transponder looks bit large for MiniZ.

Look on their website, a picture and dimensions are listed and indeed I think too large for Mini-Z but I think the IR lapcounters are perfect for Mini-Z

Dear All,

Allow me to address all the questions, one by one:
Roelof :
I'm especially happy, that you answered, you seems like to have a nice reputation across here. so:
1: Yes, you are correct. We are racers ourselves, have multiple AMB transponders ourselves. What we don't have, is a 3000 euro decoder, and a 600 euro software, with what I can go to my local track, and do a practice session, and measure, what driving technique, and what setup change can give me more tenth on the track. Furthermore, there are lots of smaller club, or community tracks, that simply can not afford to buy a decoder and software package for their track, as it is the case over here, in Hungary as well. Also, if you are a basher, and say, you buy a UDR, or a Revo, or any other car, those cost substantial amount of money. If you're interested in, that which of your buddies doing your backyard lap faster,then this is a cheap way to measure accurate time. Our real world testing revealed, that the transponder's accuracy are within 1ms, so in that perspective, this system is on par with the top dogs.
2: Yes, this is one of our main area, to reach out to those racers, who have no access to an AMB system, like I wrote above. Additionally, this software can run full and complete races as well, with audio, sector times, and printouts alike, so it is also capable of doing complete race days.
3: The thickness of the tape is 1.5mm, that is suitable for onroad racing. we made extensive testing over here in Hungary, on both tarmac tracks, and carpet alike. On Carpet, you just simply have to lay the strips under the carpet, and the biggest challenge is to remember, where you put them, because they are so thin, they absolutely vanish under the carpet . On tarmac, if you following our suggestion to duct ape the strip, then there is absolutely no drawback, no car bounce nothing that we could notice during the testing phase of the system.
4: The tape can be cut to any size, if you have a huge 1/5 track with a 10m corner, that also can be accommodated.
5: The detection of sector vs finish line is actually one of the few proprietary information, that I'm not allowed to disclose at this time :) If you miss a sector time, because let's say, you get out of the track at the tape, then at the next sector time, your time will be added. If you get out of shape at the finish line, then it is Business as usual, because no lap timing device would get your time anyways.

mushroomed :
Yes, you get the picture fairly accurate :).
On the internet thing: the web app can run on a smartphone, these days everyone has them, and the internet coverage is fairly universal throughout the developed countries. If you don't have a smartphone, or wifi at the track, a 20 usd GSM extender can be used. It is one of the particularities, that this system needs to have internet connection to the cloud, in order to register the lap times.

rrb1399 Billy Kelly
The size of the unit is 24x16x3mm to what I'd say, can be accommodate in a mini-Z as well, but if you give us a chassis type, we'll see if we can find it, and try to fit it in.

So the target audience is for practice timing? How will this help clubs that can't afford race timing software and don't have access to reliable internet?
​​​

Perhaps I did not used the right words, sorry about that. Everyone is our target audience, since the software is capable of organizing full on races, that could help clubs without a lap timing system, because we offer a full package, software, and hardware included.Those individuals, who are a member of a club that has a lap timing device can use this as a practice aid. Those clubs, that have no means of lap timing, they can use this as a complete ( and cheap) solution, distributing the expenses among themselves,hence there is no need for a rather large investment.
What we don't want, and frankly, can't do, is to compete with the large, already established lap timing systems, because realistically those, who has that system, will never replace it. We are looking to fulfill those needs, who'd like to have a cheap lap timing system outside the organized races, may that be a backyard basher, or a full on racer.
All in all, either one racer, or a complete club can use this system without entry restrictions, providing that everyone has one of these transponders.
Hope that helped :)

Norbert.

I've just checked the website, there's a 60 euro fee per device per year. If a club has 10 transponders, that's 600 euro per year right there, there's no savings over something like Livetime.

I can not tell but the square shape on top of the transponder could be a GPS receiver. If I am right then it is clear how start/finish and sector lines are detected. And if it is GPS then there is a feature you can add above AMB, that is showing your race lines.

Regarding the tape the website says 3 meter, that is confusing, maybe a price per meter and/or a complete roll of x meters is a better choice to show.

You are right about the tape, we will adjust the website, because it could be misleading.
About the GPS signal, the current available GPS units have the accuracy of roughly 1m, proving absolutely unusable for drawing your lines on the track, especially, if 10 cm in a curve can mean a good lap time at the front of the heat, or a bad lap at the back.

Yes, you are right, that is an early version of the licensing plans. We do plan to bring the licensing fee down to half, and introduce quarter, and half ( seasonal ) licenses as well, making this truly competitive. If you have your license, you have access to the software, and all of it's features. Also, if there is a club, where this system is used, that means, that the racers purchased it, hence, it is an individual fee of around 6 eur per month per person, and not a one off 600 euro for the organizer. This is where we can offer a different solution, than the current market.
Roelof
After some clarification, I can actually tell you the technology, and I personally find it genius.
Finish and sector times are distinguished by flipping the magnetic tape From negative, to positive side:D . No extra tape needed for different tasks, however this requires some attention to detail, because if you lay down 2 finish side, and 2 sector tape side, that would cause some issues.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rct...a24e620c5.jpeg
I’ve already got a timing system for MiniZ. But if interested this is the size of a standard MiniZ transponder

So, this transponder is 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch? If so, then our would fit as well length wise, it is 1 inch by 1/2inch. We plan to cooperate with a mini club, where they race with 1/28 cars, and I'll report back with the results, and the pictures of the installation.

this is the EasyLaps transponder that becoming the standard here in States. We had been using a different system. But changed last summer has many were finding needing multiple transponders fustrating. I’m unable to travel to the other groups in my part of Midwest, closest two are 5 and 7 hours away.

Interesting
As a racer-

1. Its not really cheaper than standard transponders.
2. It has a monthly fee past one year. (ick)
3. Segment times are great!
4. The pickup distance is worrying for thinner magnetic strips. You bounce wrong and you could lose a lap from the description
5. If it skips a segment, is it smart enough to know where on the track it is vs just not many segments got counted?
6. Internet might be a problem
7. This won't work most places you race, so maybe good for practice or smaller clubs?

As a track-

1. No decoder box to buy is great
2. Internet is a hard sell for a lot of locations, not everyone has tethering on their mobile and hooking that up in some instances can be challenging. (Cell companies are a real PITA about tethering in the US)
3. More reliable pickups really will still require bridges or bumps.
4. Does it work with all the common timing software?
5. How does the process of logging racer transponders for heats, etc work? The manual makes it sound like registering everything might be a bit of a chore.

I could see a new group, especially a smaller club going for this. I feel like it'd be a hard sell to established users. OTOH I'd feel better giving money to people who don't intentionally brick transponders.

It won't work with common race timing packages, they need a decoder or something pretending to be a decoder to talk to. Perhaps they could create a decoder emulation software package to do this.

Regarding intentionally bricking transponders... Since these are cloud subscription based, they stop working when you stop paying your subscription. Not quite the same as bricking, but has a similar outcome.

Hello there TheRulesLawyer,

This solution is cheaper in the sense, that you, as a racer can log your lap times on your own, without the need of a decoder.
The monthly fee is unfortunately unavoidable, that we ourselves also has to pay for server time, and website maintenance (the time keeping application is web based), and we have in the pipeline the plan to introduce monthly, quarterly, seasonal, and yearly subscriptions ( the yearly will be half the price then what is currently indicated). Let me put it to you in another perspective. If you go out to your track to train, and setup your touring car, you use up what, 2 sets of tires on a good day? that is easily 50 euros over there. This subscription will be the in the realm of 3 euros per month, depending on what package deal you purchase ( currently this sub is 6 euros per month). If you think about it, the ( currently) 6 euros is a service fee, that you spend for the possibility to organize races, measure your own lap times, measure sector times, measure pit stop times, even calculate top speed if you're interested in it all for a small fee. If you take a look at your yearly budget of your touring car race, you can see, that this training aid is really not that much.
You can measure split times even on your race, if the race track allows you, to tape down your own magnet strips, or tuck them under the carpet, so then you can have your split times independently from the race lap timing system.
Pickup distance wise we have not experienced any issues during the testing phase. Obviously I'm not saying, that a miss can not happen, it's just the probability is quite low.
If a sector( segment, split) has been skipped, then the all up time adds to the next sector, or to the lap time, if for instance you skip the last sector tape. so, the system doesn't "know" where it is at the track, just keeps sensing the sector magnetic strips, or detects the finish magnetic strip, in which case the time counting starts from zero.
We did not realized, that internet connection would be an issue, but this is where we are :) We pretty much have unlimited internet on our phones, that can be tethered ( altho, the data traffic is minimal), so this is why we figured, this will not be an issue, since nowadays everyone has a smartphone, with an internet connection on it.
Most places that we race, already made the investment of purchasing expensive time keeping equipment. We do not want to contend with them, rather extending the lap timing abilities. When it comes down to add sectors to a track, with the conventional system this means adding a decoder to every sector you want, and that is an extra 3000 eur per sector. Ours is an extra 30. surely, it has it's limitations, but price/value ratio is pretty top notch if you ask me :) .

Club wise if you can organize to have one working internet cable, then you are golden ( our local track also has wifi). you can bring your laptop, and Wifi router, and can setup the hotspot, and work the web app on the laptop. I know, this is the ideal case, and this is a limiting factor.
The software and the hardware is one complete package, they work as one. We do have plans on making it compatible with other lap timing software, but that requires some further discussion with the other software's developers, but we certainly have this in our minds.

Logging the racers into heats currently works by manually create sessions for each heat, and name it accordingly ( ie 17.5 touring A heat 02.13.2020), and you start that session, that"s turn is up next. Regarding the manual registering everything, you are correct, This is currently under development, the next iteration of the software can be expected to come out mid summer, where among others we add the possibility, to upload racers' data to a session via copy-paste from an excel sheet ( a report that you can extract from most online websites, where you have to register for the race).

We are fully committed towards our customers, and we DO plan to introduce hardware iterations as well, making the hardware smaller, watertight etc, in the future, but the base technology, and the usability will stay the same. Our business plan does not rely on jumping the technology from time to time, so the users have to change the hardware, but instead we introduced the subscriptions, so that our expenses can be covered( rest assured, we'll not going to have holidays in the Bahamas out of this project, we do this for the love of the hobby).

This occurred to us as well to create an emulator, with what we can tie in to under a common race timing software, the details are currently under development, but this will not be a short project.

Bricking transponders: correct, not quite the same. If your subscription expires ( expiration date is always visible on the website, when you add a racer to a session), you don't have to buy the new technology hardware all over again, but you can go ahead, and purchase the license, even on the track, under 5 minutes, and your transponder is back to work again. This is not the case with the technology change you see.
Some lap timing software are subscription based( yes, this is only a headache to the club officials), same as the larger, motorsport transponders ( altho, they are GSM based), so subscription based finances are not alien from lap timing.

If you are serous about this you might want to revisit the whole cloud concept. Getting internet to the locations will be an issue. Tethering more than 5 or 10 devices (here in the USA) is an issue. You need to make these work without relying on the internet. Have the devices talk directly to a computer over wifi in an offline mode. When it's cloud based not only do you need to rely on the internet you also have to rely on the cloud server being up. Even Google services go down. There is no such thing as 100% uptime.

Do you mind elaborating on what do you mean about beeing an issue tethering 5-10 transponders? If it is a matter of data usage, that is a couple bytes per transponder, really, 10 transponders use less data then loading in a half of a low resolution picture in a google search. Does the statesnreally that thin lined with cell reception?

In Australia the reception is generally pretty good most of the time but you'd still get the occasional dropped packet or random periods where the whole network goes down, but in some buildings there is virtually no signal at all. It wouldn't surprise me if the USA indoor tracks have significant issues there.

Indoor tracks are expensive, the building and carpet make decoders look cheap. Outdoor asphalt tracks are cheaper but there's no carpet to tuck the magnetic tape under, so the cars will be hitting the tape. And many outdoor tracks are temporary, the kerbs/barriers won't be there if you try to practice outside a race day.

Completely agree about rethinking the cloud-only concept. Please consider gigaplex’s point above. Why not make something browser based that can work without internet connection, since the system needs a wifi network anyhow. Type in the IP address and view the timing from the local network.

Otherwise, what happens when the internet signal drops during a race? What if your servers go down?

There is some risk for customers in buying a timing product that you can’t use independently of a web based service. If you aren’t around in a year or five then customers do have expensive bricks.

I understand the business model is based on subscription, maybe you could make it so the transponders will work for 90 days without connecting to the internet, but then then users could just connect them at some point to confirm subscriptions and reactivate. Similar to the way spotify checks for subscription to maintain offline access to music files. If you ever did stop running the online services, perhaps you could remove this restriction with a final update.

There are several countries about the size of Europe but which are sparsely populated away from the major cities, and have sparse mobile data coverage too- especially in the some of the places with land available for rc tracks. USA, Australia, Canada to name a few. I really like the idea, and the clever way you differentiate between sectors and start/finish line and would use a system like this in a slightly different form.

I understand the dismay behind the internet connectivity, but frankly, this, as a drawback we'd never anticipated in mainland Europe ( just last week I was up in the French alps snowboarding above 2800m with full cell reception and 4G connectivity) I guess market research pays off if you do it in advance :D . At this current state of the project, there is very little that we can do about this, as it is an already 5 year long R&D project, and we felt, that the product came to a life cycle status, where we are happy to introduce it to the large audience, with it's own quirks and features. :) As mentioned above, we are constantly developing the technology, and adapting it to the market needs, meaning,we do have an idea about how can we tie in under an already existing lap timing software, hence no internet connection will be needed, but you have to purchase the 3.rd party lap timing software separately ( wifi connection will be still required between the transponder and hot spot capable device to communicate)

In the meanwhile, let me answer some of your questions :)

If the wifi network drops, then the transponder keeps registering the times, until it is powered up, and sends the time data when it is connected again.
Our server contract is a typical commercial contract, that guarantees us 99.9% up time. So far we experienced a one time 2 minute website blackout ,and that is well within our incorporated fail safe time threshold.

The concern about the bind to the software and the whole technology is understood, we do have some ideas to improve customer trust towards us, and the product, but we still have to work on that, one of the challenges of introducing a new product to a quite narrow, and closed market :) .

In the USA most cell phone companies only allow you to tether 5 or 10 devices at a time. In regards to reception; In real areas it can be rough. Outside should be fine but indoors it can be very bad. My local track is inside a mall and cell coverage is practically non existent.

Hello everyone,

You spoke, and we listened.
We made the device compatible with some offline software. Namingly, we tested the hardware with livetimeRC, RCM, nextleveltiming, zround, flipside racing so far. If the offline software works with P3 or I-lap protocol, then our device is compatible with it. Both lap and sector times are registered ( where software capability allows). This obviously means, that you have to have a laptop with the lap counting software, and a wifi router ( no internet connection needed)

This projects forward 2 product line:

-One is the already introduced, internet bound solution, with license fees, that as I mentioned before, will be significantly reduced( can work on smartphone, tablet et cetera)

- One new product line works in dual mode, online (web app) providing you have a valid licence (as above), or offline, without the licensing costs, or license renewal cost ( because this is an offline solution), where you receive a transponder,magnetic tape, and a software, that ties in our transponders with the existing softwares. This product line will be a bit more expensive due to additional R&D costs, but it will still be affordable.

The offline system's alpha testing is currently undergoing, hopefully we will be able to publish the advancements soon. The transfer between the two systems will be possible,further details to be followed on that.

Again, We are happy to answer any questions, concerns that you might have. This information is actually brand new and fresh ( RcTech Exclusive if you will), we didn't have time to update our website yet :)

Great, thanks very much for taking on this feedback. I am more interested in this system than some of the others for practice because of the ability to add in sectors. This is something extra that you don't get with mylaps/lapmonitor/rctiming (or not in an easy or cost effective way).

By the way, if you need a tester for the offline system I'm available!

This is indeed a convenient feature I agree.
It is kind of you to offer your free time, but we have an alpha, and an even larger beta tester group near by :)

Just re-read that post...please don't make the offline mode count on existing timing software... needing access to a club laptop with purchased timing software would kill this for practice. Why not an offline mode for your software or offline version of the web app?

How do you envisage that working? The offline version of the software has to run... somewhere.

By having the CloudLaps timing app run on a smartphone without the need for internet connection, or a standalone timing application for PC to use when practicing.

If I had to arrange to get the clubs race laptop out with a copy of RC Scoring (or whatever race software) installed... then I'd just use the regular mylaps setup and others could have timed practice too.

Your concerns are understandable, but at this point of time, this is our solution to be independent from the internet. I mean, take a look, you guys brought up the issue of connectivity, and we listened. We try to respond to the feedbacks and market demands as fast as we can ;) I mean, this anmouncement came after what, a week, of the first mention of the issue to be bound to the internet?
Currently we are honing this capability, that we can tie into under an excisting software, and later on, we can think about creating a mobile platform offline app, that can take care of everything. Until then, this really is the cheapest way to put sectors into your race track :).
Alternatively if you know a free lap timing software for a laptop, with what we can test our system, we are happy to look in to the compatibility of it. in the meanwhile, the mobile platform is capable to meet the demands of the online lap timing.

Fair enough, I thought you meant for setting up races with multiple people.

Regarding practicing alone, you either have your own laptop with a lap timing software without internet, or with your phone and with internet. This should cancel out the argument of tethering multiple devices to one phone, because you only tether one, if you practice alone. If you practice with your buddies, everyone can tether to their own phone, so no problem there. Further improvements will be made to the whole system based on the user feedback, but for now, this is where we are at :)

how far from the magnetic strip can the transponder receive the signal?

for example on an offroad car where the ride height can be 30mm from the ground

lagcisco ,
Length of the tape can be anything, from one car width to 10 meters.1.5mm tape can be taped onto the tarmac ( onroad track), carpet tolerates the 3mm tape fairly well ( the 1.5 practically undetectable under it), anything thicker can be bridged over the track, just like the ILap system, or can be dug into the surface of the track, if it is possible , like in a dirt, or a clay track. For offroad use, you can use the thickest tape ( 6mm), and that will have 125mm detectable range ( it is more than this, but we'd like to stay on the conservative side of our recommendations). If you need more range, then you can use 2 strips by doubling them up, almost doubling the detection range.

Please refer to the chart for actual distances below, under Magnetic Tape Specifications:
https://cloudlaps.com/specification/

Have a look at ZRound software. Cano/RCHourglass protocol can be easily implemented. I don't think the software supports multiple detection lines.

We have, tested, and it is working with our system. Please see post 28 :)