Billy Kelly

iTrader: (9)

It’s a numbers game. One Facebook post from JCONCEPTS on their FB page reaches over 100,000 people. Even if every ghost and member were to see it, it would only be around 1,000.

Roelof

Crawlers is a small world so it is easy to be on one forum,. RC racing knows may forums and facebook groups so it is hard to bring news on all of them as also with the competition on a high level many manufacturers do not want to share a lot information where they are working on. And beside all of that, they all have their own social media channels and websites to provide their followers the 1st information.

Roelof

From the last years what I realy do mis are real technical discussions. More and more people only speak the commercial talk you can find in many product reviews and advertisements or what their idols (top drivers) can say w/o any in depth knowledge. Also what I do see is that wat people experience w/o any real technical knowledge does make them experts on the subject, a very well example is the break in of a nitro engine where everyone have their own way while all of them are basically the same.
People know a lot of engines, how short stroke, square stroke and long stroke engines do feel on the track, which pipe is the best on a totally different engine etc. still not knowing the real story. Even if people have different exhausts to try they still want an answer from others what to use while an afternoon at the track will give the only right asnwer.
At the same time very funny to see that RC cars do get more tecnical and the technical knowledge is fading away. Did it become too technical or is it a lack of gaining the knowledge?

The same we see with electrics. Many "what is the best" questions on batteries, ESC's and motors while the answer differs from day by day and most answers come from brand loyalists. Even people do dare to advise some crappy radio's like the Dumbo RC because they think it is the best.

Even starters have the question "what to buy" without any information of what they would like (scale, model, budget etc) as if we need to fill in their hobby

And where are the real racers like Collari, Balestri Rheinhart etc? I believe even Jilles isn't active anymore while he was a well seen top racer.

AHR43

Quoting you out of context here, Roelof, to save space and focus on what caught my eye. Hope you don't mind.

Do not pretend to speak for the rest of RCers in the hobby or on this site. For me personally it is becoming too technical. That and I am elderly and do not process new developments the same way as I did when younger. So I tend to cling to the older methods. Which works me a disadvantage in progressing with the hobby.

That leads me to be less active on this, originally a technical-oriented forum. What I'd like to see on this forum is a "how to" sub forum conducted by knowledgeable RC people. That would help bring a guy like me up to speed and help in keeping me current in the hobby. That would almost beg editing a post for content and accuracy. That may be beyond the capability of the forum staff. Unless a capable moderator would step forward into that minefield.

Regards. 'AC'

Roelof

It is a common complain about the cars being too technical. I must say the "Hudy setup book" is a very nice dictionairy of how to setup a 1/10 tourer and is for a part useable on other cars but indeed there are things even team drivers do not tell what they do. I drive a Mugen MRX and with the MRX5 and 6 there are different kingpin inserts an no one has written something what each position will do with the car.
But on the other hand I must say any car can be setup very well with the basic adjustments (Toe-in, camber, caster, spring, shocks and anti roll bars)

But yes, it is the reason why some people choose something else to drive.

Roelof

Is it possible to make the off topic forums hidden to keep away non RC guys talking about games, printers and other non rc talk? Let new users prove they come here to talk about RC and after a few posts the offtopic forums will be visible.

Bud

I think that's why they call it the off topic forum?

Roelof

Yeah, but the offtopic forums should not be a reason to become a member of this forum, there are plenty of other forums to find.

RC10_goldNwhite

I should probably just STFU... however I cannot.

As someone who has been around the hobby since 1989 (granted not solid), with that first RC/10 I received as a Christmas gift, I was opened up to a whole new world of excitement. I have been a fan of just about anything with 4 wheels and a motor since I was knee-high to a grasshopper (I was one of those kids who could name every car), and have had a passion for racing equally as long. I have watched this hobby grow, bubble, and murder itself. I have spent time working for manufactures, hobby shops, and distributors. In that time, counter to what someone else has said in this thread, I watched the hobby go from mostly racers to people who just want a toy to play with. I am going through this history because it, at least in my mind, mirrors the problems with forums (though there is even more pressure on forums). I was there as the hobby went from an RC/10 with no differential and a gear reduction drive (or transmission as they called it) to the output shafts, to the MIP 6 gear differential transmission, to the introduction of ESCs, I remember pulling my car with a wiper (potentiometer, hooked up to a servo) speed controller was glowing red hot. Each one of these advances were done with the focus on racers. Racers were the life blood of this hobby, and here is why. Racers purchase things constantly, breaking parts, upgrading things to stay competitive, general maintenance. Even back then most hobby shops made very little profit on big ticket items (though there was a lot more than there is available today), however the profits were in the smaller ticket items, motors, A-arms, hinge pins, lubricants, batteries, etc were much higher and how most of these places survived. Yes tracks also had come and gone throughout those times, mismanagement is something that plagues a large number of small businesses. Hobby shops also tended to focus on certain manufactures, that allowed them to better leverage economies of scale. Back then even Tyco was trying to get in on the action, trying to build a vehicle that would bridge the gap between a toy and a hobby. However we can fast forward to, what I consider to be the worst thing for the hobby, 1992 where a company known as Traxxas released it's first RTR vehicle Which I believe was called the Nitro Hawk. While this didn't take off like gang busters (though enough for Traxxas to see a path to massive profitability). This cancer, known as RTR, had started.

There are a lot of people who say "RTR is great, it makes the hobby more accessible to more people." However, the largest problem with RTR vehicles is that a huge percentage of them end up broken and at the bottom of a closet somewhere, or in the corner of a garage, never to be fixed. Why is this? These things are expensive, right? Well yes, however when you didn't build it, fixing it becomes a daunting and scary task, and not realizing that most mom and pop hobby shops would be happy to help you fix your toy, most just see it as a toy. When a toy breaks you throw it away. From hobby shops I worked at in the past, the return rate of customers who purchased a RTR vehicle was probably between 1-5%. However this didn't really matter at this early stage, the bulk of the sales were still kits and people who were racing, coming in, supporting their local hobby shops and economies. Things went pretty well, for another decade or so. As it became nearly impossible to walk into a hobby shop that didn't have a wall of dusty traxxas parts, though the kits were flying off the shelfs like nobodies business. The problem is that all of these dusty parts cost money, and not just money to purchase, but money to showcase, money to maintain, and are a killer to PPSF (profit per square foot). By now many other companies had caught on to the cash cow that was RTRs (this was a cash cow for manufactures and distributors, just not the LHS), and with the internet starting to apply pressure to further lower prices at the retail level (lets face it, it costs a LOT more to run a brick and mortar store than it does a warehouse, or a drop shipping operation from home), now LHSs are forced to take nearly 0 profits on the RTR kits (I am serious here, a hobby store I worked at around the y2k time was making between $3 and $10 on a RTR kit, this didn't include paying employees, rent, electricity, water, etc. this is the profit they made from horizon hobby to meet the retail price that was displayed on horizon hobby's web site at the time). Add to this the manufactures all but refusing to sell directly to most LHSs, instead preferring to go through distributors, because giant orders mean massive, secured, and nearly guaranteed profits (let me be clear, I have no problem with companies making profits, I have a problem with the term maximize profits, this mindset basically eschews everything else in the name of making the most profit possible, and typically only looking ahead a quarter at a time). However the Hobby kept chugging along, Hobby shops without tracks or a parking lot racing program are now starting to suffer, their profits are going way down, and around 2002 we start seeing a lot of the LHSs start to close. However LHSs that had tracks were still doing very well (and a lot still do if they have the racer base that they need to support them), and this continued for another 4-6 years, then people got a new hankering that pretty much killed indoor racing in my area (and a lot of others) and this was Nitro getting really popular again (I say again as it was also really popular in the mid to late 80s), while the top track in my area at this time (SoCal) was closed, from what I had heard, Jim had some form of stomach cancer, this coupled with the the other rumor that the land lord wanted to greatly increase the rent, and the nose dive in driver attendance (I remember being there on a Saturday from about 9:00 AM to 1-2:AM on a Saturday night into a Sunday morning, and this was every week, I believe there were an average of 26-30 mains on Saturdays, going from this to 10-12 mains seemingly overnight), it made sense for them to close. However we enter the collapse of the Racer market in Southern California, and seemingly nation wide. 2006 is also when I basically quit racing, mainly because I had no place to race any longer. I did try to make a comeback at WCRC, however that place closed a week after I tried to make that comeback (if the rumors I hear are correct, it was another dumb thing that put them down).

So, how does all of this relate to a forum?

It is the same mindset that brought in RTR, instant gratification on the end user side, and profits on the company side. So there are a lot of new people in the "hobby" however they have no interest in it being a hobby. Add to this things like facebook and other social media sites (and yes I am one of those FOGs that doesn't have a facebook account and prefer forums to do my research and gather information), where that instant gratification becomes much easier to obtain. That leaves those of us who want to use forums as the remaining people who visit, and attempt to participate in the forums. Just as those of us who want to race are now just the vestigial outskirts of our amazing hobby, we just have no place to support locally any longer.

One of the most depressing things of my recent attempt to return is one of my favorite hobby shops in Southern California, Ultimate Hobbies, has noting for anyone who is racing. They had 2 kits, they were both Associated No-Prep Drag racing kits. No high end radios, no racing motors, no batteries that one would consider for racing, and RTR kits along all four walls. To say the least, it was gutting. They used to have the best selection around, and I even worked there for a couple of years.

So how can we help to make this better, on all fronts. Get people to go racing, try to get that bug to bite. Encourage people to interact on places like this forum. We also need to tone down our responses, as I have been motoring around this site there seems to be a lot of vitriol, a lot of people not wanting to help or understand what someone is saying, instead, being sarcastic or worse. I also feel this site could use some better organization, it is pretty hard to find some of the deeper knowledge that is probably on this site, however using google to search this site has been very helpful.

I am very willing to lend my ancient knowledge where it can be applied, anymore that is probably going to be limited to chassis setup and generally how cars react to different settings, or what you should do if your car is reacting in a way you don't want it to react. Of less relevance would be my knowledge in NiCD and NMHi care and maintenance any more.

2wdMod

iTrader: (42)

From another "old timer" welcome back.. I will say if you are looking for the racing experience you were used to , that does not exist anymore.. Its kind of why the drag thing has become so huge..

RC10_goldNwhite

Thanks friend, I don't expect things to be the way they used to be, however there does seem to be a decent group out at CAL Raceway... I'll see if I can wiggle my way in there.

DirkW

iTrader: (1)

Also see here: https://www.rctech.net/forum/racing-...dying-off.html

fyrstormer

iTrader: (1)

[yawn]

I'm not going to bother arguing with you about whether RTR ruined RC, but I will tell you that the fast pace of racers breaking parts NOT what built RC. Advancements in RC technology weren't developed in-house -- not a single one of them. They are hand-me-downs from various other industries that use motors, wattage-regulating electronics, wear-resistant surface coatings, wireless communications, rotation sensors, precision-cut gears, reinforced belts, etc. etc. etc. Pretty much the only thing that was invented specifically for RC was the methanol-powered glowplug engine, and that was way back in the 1950s after WW2. Everything else trickled its way into RC as demand from other, more important industries (like HVAC for motor technology, computer-controlled automobiles for servo technology, and cellphones for 2.4GHz frequency-hopping radios) refined various technologies and brought their prices down far enough that companies catering to hobbyists could begin to purchase parts and machining tools at affordable prices. RC racers provided the trickle of demand needed to keep those hobbyist companies alive, but racers absolutely did not provide enough income for those tiny hobbyist companies to invent any of the technologies RC cars use today. I can't stop you from being angry at Traxxas for ruining the pure, cloistered, racer-supremacist culture that was the RC hobby before they came along, but I can tell you your understanding of the situation is mistaken.

Roelof

For a huge part I have to agree with you that many products do come from the main industry and much claimed by RC manufacturers as an own developed product. But adapting such industry developments into RC does take some own developments, for sure getting the best out of brushless ESC's it does take some neat programming of the firmware.

RC10_goldNwhite

I don't disagree, hell most RC Car companies and parts makers come from different industries, the RC part was a passion project. I am not making the claim that RC was the catalyst for the technological advancement (though there are many things that have no practical application outside of RC, such as the MIP 6 Gear transmission for the RC/10 and the Losi Jr series back in the late 80's and early 90's), just that racing pushed the technology into RC. It paved the way for companies to bootstrap, and it was on the backs of racers that the technology developed and adapted for RC. I would argue that servos, as we know them, were mostly built around RC as well, the originating technology may not have been designed for RC, however servos as we know them have been used in planes since the 50's as well, and are purpose built and designed for RC, have been for a long time. I can tell you that there aren't many servos in an automobile, at least not much most would recognize as a servo, there are servo like things, however most don't use stepper motors, but hall effect sensors. Electric motors themselves aren't something that came from the HVAC industry, electric motors and generators have existed since the 1830's, most RC previous to the early to mid 80s was nitro, because the key technology that hadn't gotten to where it needed to be was batteries. Yes, we used to use led-acid batteries that were slap-soldered together in RC Drag cars back in the day, this was because of how quickly you could dump power from them. There were definitely a lot of technologies that were borrowed from other industries, however they were made into purely RC equipment by people who saw the need, the edge that it could create, and made a business out of it, then other people saw that technology and thought, "Hey, I can do that better." and they made another business out of it. Most didn't succeed, however some did. The point here is that the innovations in RC were made because of the competitive advantage that they could give.

In fact, it is pretty safe to say that pretty much anything you touch wasn't invented by that company, and certainly has been adapted to fit its purpose. Did google invent the microchip? Did they invent HTML? Did they invent search? No, they adapted it to suit their needs, and to suit what they thought the market needed.

That is a disingenuous take, it has nothing to do with racer supremacy, nor do I make that claim. The fact of the matter is, when you couple extremely low profit items with a base that almost never returns for the high profit parts, you are going to do a lot of damage to the hobby and those who support it. That is the point. I would say that my understanding of the industry and the business practices therein are spot on, because I lived them, I was there, I watched it happen. I watched as 1000 of RTRs flew off the shelves, to see less than 20 come back after they were broken, consistently, the ones who came back were good customers, and always wanted to upgrade and spend, it just isn't enough to support a brick and mortar store in most locations. If I am a snob about anything, it is building the car. The removal of building something and watching it move for the first time, driving it, be it on a track or in your backyard. That is the experience that is missed RTR. Racers are what built the hobby, and allowed it to flourish in the early days of the hobby. The consistent stream of profits from people who were competitive, wanted "the best stuff", and ultimately kept the money flowing for all involved in the chain. As to the cloistered part, that is so far off the mark it isn't even funny, I used to keep a few TL-01s around for friends and/or their kids to come enjoy a race night in novice class, trying to introduce them to the hobby aspect of the hobby. I see this hobby as one of pride and accomplishment, you don't really get either with a RTR, nor do I consider someone who just purchased an RTR as a hobbyist, that is just a toy to bash until it breaks. It can cross over into being a hobby, it is just that so few do. That is what Traxxas took away, they took the hobby out of the hobby. Then it was monkey see monkey do for most of the rest of the industry.