PD2

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...n_vs_evolution

Spend a little time there and be sure to read it all. Then let us know if you believe what you just said.

PD2

sho .21

Sorry I havn't replied in so long guys. Thanks for all the helpful advice. I'm starting to understand a little better now.

Express_Guy, you have to have faith that God is real. I got my faith from stuff that has been PROVEN by NON CHRISTIAN scientists that goes against what evolution has to say (and some other things here and there as well). Scientists have found that the universe is not just full of randomly placed stars and galaxies. They have found, and have said that EVERYTHING in the universe is in complete order. Now, if you keep in mind how huge the universe is, then try to imagine how astronomical the odds would have to be for everything to be in absolute PERFECT order in something so huge. Scientists have even said its impossible (which is one of the reasons why its called the theory of evolution, which I will talk about later). There are prophecies in the Bible that have been coming true as well. The bible was written I don't know how many thousands of years ago, and it predicted Israel would become a nation, and guess what? You guessed it. Now how would ANYBODY aside from God be able to predict something to happen 1,000+ years down the road, and be right about it? I'm sorry, but just like you have a hard time believeing there is a God, I have a hard time believing the universe just randomly appeared with everything in it so perfect, and that we were made by some random protein. Also, just as somebody else mentioned, if we evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys around today? And yet another thing. You want proof of God? Well, there is no REAL proof in the sense that someone has seen Him, or actually heard his voice with they're ears, atleast not people in this lifetime. There are just as you put it "possibilities". I don't need actual, physical proof (like the kind mentioned above). You know why? Because all the possibilities that God exists is proof enough alone to me that He is real. You want to know something else? There is absolutely NO proof that we got here by evolution either. Thats why its called the THEORY of evolution. If there was actual proof that we came about by evolution that we could go by, then it would not be called a theory. And about the whole getting made fun of thing, that made me laugh. I have NEVER been teased for being a Christian, or believing what I do. And even if I did, no amount of getting persecuted would change my beliefs about God. And another thing. What if by some chance you are right, and there is no God? We as Christians don't lose anything, or have to pay any kind of a price. Sure we may get persecuted here and there (I know I probably will sooner or later), but thats life. No matter if your a Christian or not you will still get persecuted, or as you put it "made fun of" for many different things throughout your lifetime. Now if all this is true, you on the other hand have a HUGE price to pay. Have you ever been burned? Well, imagine that feeling all over your body for eternity. It will never go away. Imagine this, spending all eternity in a pitch black place where you burn, forever. I would much rather believe in something thats not true, then be wrong, and have to pay that kind of a price for it. Thats just me though. I mean after all, we're just a bunch of stuck up, thick headed people right? Or are we? If you still believe the nonsense that you have spoken after all the proof or "possibilities" given to you in this thread, and in the links that PD2 gave you, then maybe you should take a long healthy look in mirror to find out just who the stuck up, thick headed one is in this one. Did I also mention that Darwin accepted Christ on his death bed? After all the crap that came out of his mouth during his lifetime on evolution, he even came to his senses and realized it was just that, crap.

Thanks again everybody else for the helpful advice towards my question. Express_Guy, I will be praying for you.

Jon2

iTrader: (13)

Where is my proof? I have it written in the bible.What other proof can I give you? I have accepted Christ in my life. I was once blind and had no purpose in my life but having Jesus in my life has opened my eyes to so many things. Being a Christian, we brothers and sisters in Christ walk by faith not by sight.

I myself need Jesus Christ in my life daily. I am not a perfect but I pray for his forgiveness daily. I pray for him to guide me in my daily ventures. I pray for him to give me wisdom that I will be a patient loving Husband, brother and son.I pray for so many things because I need Him. Being a Christian is like having a veil removed from your face that has hidden many things where Satan constantly tries to tempt you.

Again, Where is my proof? I walk by faith in Christ.

Jon

mopar70

iTrader: (29)

God is real just as Heaven is real and just as Hell is real

What do I need to do to go to Hell?
Nothing
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We are all sinners by nature. We are not sinners because we sin, we sind because we are sinners.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Theirs a price to pay for that sin and thats a death in Hell
Romans 6:23a For the wages of sin is death;
This death is a death in Hell
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If it all ended their we would have no hope but praise the Lod in didn't
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

You've hear all your life that Christ died for you. When Christ went to the cross he died for all our sins. Thats everyone in the world.
Does that mean that every one in the world is going to heaven then?
No it's what you do with Christ
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

We must beleive in Christ. Not with are mind but with are hearts.
Ask him to forgive us of our sins and trust in him alone the best we know how.

I work for the Lord not to go to heaven, but because I'm going to heaven.
If we could work our way to Heaven, then it would not be a gift of God. If you put anything with a gift, then its no longer a gift.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
With that said I beleive if you have trusted Jesus as your personal Saviour, then you are going to heaven. Your life should reflect you salvation and you should live it for Christ.
The only people that know for sure if I have done business with Christ is Christ and myself.
Now I give testimony to you all that I have done this.

For you that have not done this, Now is the time to trust Christ and be Saved!
We can sit an argue about God and evelution. In the end It comes down to faith. Either you beleive what the Bible says or you don't. I choose to Beleive the word of God. People have tried to disprove the Bible for a very long time with no secess. Everytime they try they only prove it to be true.
So my friend Heaven or Hell is up to you.

Cmotif

iTrader: (4)

In a class I once took on defending the faith there is a question to ask atheists.

"What percentage of all of knowledge do you think you have?"

Next question "Do you think that in that vast amount of information that you don't have, could there be evidence for the existence of God?"

Careful how you use that though. I used it once with a girl in Scotland, and when I asked her what percentage of all knowledge that she thought she had, she said "70%" at which point all of her friends started tell her to shut up because she was making herself look stupid.

As for me all all of knowledge. I am not a know it all. I have just a very little amount of all of knowledge. maybe .0000000000001 percent, but probably a lot lower. When you take into consideration every language, culture, world history, quantum physics etc etc. And I even have a masters degree.

But in that .0000000000001 percent, I have seen things that I can't explain apart from work of God. Seen God heal one of our Pastors who had stage 4 liver cancer. He was given 6 months to live. That was a couple of years ago. There is no cancer any more. I am friends with one of his doctors, and that doc, who is not a Christian, says that it was a miracle. My pastor friend now goes and visits churches and shares a sermon on how God still heals even today. He has probably been to more than 12 churches now.

I have seen so many prophecies of Scripture come true in world history, that I have to believe in God.

I could go on and on from my .0000000000001 percent on how I have seen God work and move.

To say as a statement of fact that there is no God would have to imply that you know absolutely everything, otherwise, it it a statement of your belief. You believe there is no God even through the majority of all of knowledge you have not explored. Maybe it is better to say that you are an agnostic, that there could be a God but you don't know, and from what you know, you don't see one.

C

Cmotif

iTrader: (4)

I have heard again and again that with many Atheists, they were given some view of God early on who was "God as genie" and if He didn't do what they hoped and broke their hearts, then they set out to erradicate Him.

Problem is, God never was there as your genie in the first place. It is important to know God as He is.

Maybe it is just as important to say, "Tell me about the God that you don't believe in."

It might be that as Christians, we don't believe in that view of God either.

There are a lot of gods and views of God that I don't believe in.

I believe in the God of Israel as revealed in Bible, and who I have come to know through His Holy Spirit and His Son Jesus Christ.

One nice thing is that we are not defending some God who has just always lived out there is some other dimension. But we have a God who has entered human history, and changed the course of history.

Cmotif

Kings Kid

iTrader: (35)

HI Bro's,
wow,all good, different parts of one body, same spirit. To Express guy,when you witness something like a ball game or a big race, you have experience and then a testimony to what you have experienced. When you ask Jesus to be your Lord & savior, you also have an experience and can testify of his goodnes and existence! "seek and you shall find, Knock and the door shall be openedto you"

The_Raptor

You all have alot of work to do on:

1) Proving God exists
2) Disproving God exists
3) Proving Evolution
4) Disproving Evolution
5) Using Evolution to disprove God

But since that is not what this thread is about, I will not join in the hijacking of it. The question here is does the Pastor know more than you about interpreting the bible? Have you bothered to form your own interpretations through deep study? Can/should the bible be interpretated?

I am not a Christian because the modern church systems (Middle Ages to present) are highly flawed, historically corrupt and like to use thier own interpretations as Gospel. Religion is a private affair. If the God that exists is as benevolent as Jews and Christians put forth, then the path to Heaven is to do your best. He will forgive honest mistakes.

Too many modern peoples use the church system as their crutch. Show up a couple of hours a week, practice what was preached until the sun goes down, then repent again next Sunday morning. Nowhere in the Commandments did God demand you sit uncomfortably on oak pews in order to see Paradise. A preacher's interpretation is no more right or accurate than yours if you bother to make an informed and intelligent interpretation.

You can go to church if you want, but there is no salvation in that path alone. The only true usefulness I see in the church is to use it as a way of strengthening your beliefs by hearing and discussing alternative views (debating in a sense).

To put this into the present context:
The pastor has interpreted the words you chose (and others) to mean that by walking a path similar to Jesus, you will go to Heaven. Jesus shed all things (including beard and long hair, he was a Jew born in 30 BC not a European in the 18th Century as DaVinci painted him!), and crossed the land spreading the message that God was interested in all creatures, not just temple leaders.

The easier interpretation is simply the literal reading of the words. I cannot tell that is wrong, but you must consider 2 things. 1) The entire Bible is written poetically and therefore is designed to open personal feelings not literal translation (which the King James version do not pull and mistranslated several passages, so to know the true word you must look outside the Bible); 2) the books are not written by the people whose names appear on them. In most cases, the books were written up to 100-200 years after Jesus lived based on oral traditions and previous written works. So the exact wording of the speech passages should be taken as paraphrasing and fill in, not verbatim because it is simply not possible.

But in the end, the path you seek is in your heart not your eyes or ears.

nitrorocks

iTrader: (28)

1) Proving God exists
2) Disproving God exists
3) Proving Evolution
4) Disproving Evolution
5) Using Evolution to disprove God

If you look in the about comments...you'll see there is MUCH explanation into this. I'm not going to rehash it here...but if you read thru the above postings and still want to debate this more...I'll be more than happy to indulge you in another thread geared to that.

As for the comments you made...I believe some of your ideas are untrue. The old testament was written before the birth of Christ. And the 1st 4 gospels of the New Testement (Mathew, Mark, Luke, John) were written 60-90ad ... shortly after the Death of Christ.

As for the Path to Salvation....it's a little different than you think. In accepting Jesus as your lord and savior and confessing your sins...you have eternal life. That's it. The end....as long as you TRULY mean it. How do we know that you truly mean it...no one but U and God will know that. But the Bible says your remade...a new creation...and in that you would think that your work and actions and mannerisms reflect that.

I seem to be picking up on something here and I hope I don't offend you...but you seem to be upset with the Hypocritical Church goer. Go to Church on Sunday...all is forgiven...then sin your rear-end off Mon-Sat! Well, I get upset with them too. I know far too many....but life is a journey. You seem fairly edjucated...and that you have done some Spiritual searching. Have you attended a church before? or Have you read the Bible before? Just curious?

-Alan

The_Raptor

There is much interpretation and belief into this, not really definitive explanations. Your cliche comment quote "I always laugh when somebody says we came from monkeys! That's hilarious!" shows you have no real interest in taking the discussion seriously. Your use of the word monkey is intented to ridicule the Theory of Evolution when the actual term is primate. Furthermore, I have engaged in this debate so many times and it always comes down to nothing being accomplished.

Your history of the book known as the Bible is incomplete. The Old Testament was written at the same time as the New Testament. The Old Testament compilations were finished in 500BC. But the first Bible is an edited and abridged version of this. A group of scholars were commissioned to select various religious "books" and make them into a compilation. Many more were excluded. Actually take the time to compare the Torah to the Old Testament (as it is the primary source). Key example, Moses returned from the mountain with 613 Commandments, but you only know of 10 of them (including "Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes;" does your church follow this original commandment and is it even accurate in its violations?). The official canon only dates to 397 AD (the Synod of Hippo).

Furthermore, the Bible is riddled with mistranslations and great gaping holes. Moses did not cross the Red Sea. The original writtings indicate the yam suph which means "Sea of Reeds." The Persian Gulf (modern name of the Red Sea) is too salty, too deep or too hot to support reeds. The Sea of Reeds is actually the Great Bitter Lake on the Suez Canal. There exists a natural weather phenomenon where the wind pushes back the water and leaves dry (but soft) ground until the winds die. Exodus 14:21 "Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea into dry land, and the waters were divided." God's role in this is a matter of belief. Did he force the winds? Did he help Moses time the Exodus based on this natural process? Or had Moses witnessed this previously while in hiding and therefore planned for it? Or was it a happy coincidence? Believe what you will, but only through consideration of all possibilities.

That is only one instance of mistranslation. There are many other examples. If you wish to learn more about the travels of Jesus, read the Quran. It treats Jesus as a prophet and gives him great respect. Combined with other inaccuracies, the Bible can only be used as a guide, not cold hard facts. Beyond that, modern Christian teachings are also flawed. How many of you consider Mary of Magdelen to be a reformed prostitute? Find me proof of this anywhere. This was a twist the Church created in the 17th Century because they feared the idea that a woman might be Jesus's closest companion.

One common weakness of Christians is telling everyone else what the Truth is, just as you are doing here. You do not know, you believe. And you would do well to understand the difference. By your statements all Jews and Muslims are condemned (an idea which may not concern you), but that also means that all unintelligent creatures are hopelessly doomed and all peoples who existed before 30AD are also condemned. So by your belief God created humans and then sent the first 98,124 years worth of humans to Hell? That is utterly rediculous. Even you have to admit, therefore, that there must be other paths. Or else God screwed up really bad, and that dissolves the Judeo-Christian belief that God is perfect. Which is it? Are you wrong or was God?

Of course I have attended Church, and read the Bible. But I've also read mush, much more as you can clearly see. And that allows me to clearly see, because I do not wear the blinders that the Christian Church attempts to sew to your temples from birth.

It is not just the casual church-goers that upset me. I find the entire Christian religion to be the ultimate blasphemy. It is a violation of its own tenants. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me... .." yet you worship Jesus by calling him God. "Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..." yet your churches are full of sculptures and paintings of angels, Jesus (or rather your pale skinned, unclean version of Jesus), and of Heaven. And that is just 2 of the 10 you choose to claim to follow. Christianity violates over 250 of the 613 mitzvots (The true Commandments of Moses). I am not a Jew by any means, my point in all of this is that Christians act and speak as if they have the definitive answers yet their sources and entire belief system is greatly flawed.

Taking Jesus into your heart may bring you Salvation (none can know until too late), but it is not the only way. Your individual path to Heaven is through your heart and mind. Expand your knowledge and only then can you know.

nitrorocks

iTrader: (28)

[QUOTE=The_Raptor]There is much interpretation and belief into this, not really definitive explanations. Your cliche comment quote "I always laugh when somebody says we came from monkeys! That's hilarious!" shows you have no real interest in taking the discussion seriously. Your use of the word monkey is intented to ridicule the Theory of Evolution when the actual term is primate. Furthermore, I have engaged in this debate so many times and it always comes down to nothing being accomplished.


-1st off....I used to believe in the Theory of Evolution. I was taught this in High School...I found it contradicted my beliefs and I went with the text books. It wasn't till i was a truth seeking adult that I looked at it more clearly....not just Evolution but the Big Bang Theory as well....and there is More proof in believing in God and the Bible...than there is in believing that 2 inanimate, non-organic elements created life. The only thing I do agree with you about is that we can debate this like crazy...but nothing will be accomplished.


'Your history of the book known as the Bible is incomplete.
Furthermore, the Bible is riddled with mistranslations and great gaping holes. Moses did not cross the Red Sea."

"Believe what you will, but only through consideration of all possibilities."

"That is only one instance of mistranslation."

"One common weakness of Christians is telling everyone else what the Truth is, just as you are doing here. You do not know, you believe. And you would do well to understand the difference."

....one...where would you be getting all your keen insight into the Bible? You claim the Bible is riddled with "mistranslations"...are you capable of translating ancient Greek and Hebrew from original letters? If NOT, your guilty of what your claiming we are doing....spreading a Truth that someone else has told you. Somewhere...sometime...we all have to put our trust and beliefs in something. I can't read ancient Greek or Hebrew...so I have to trust that the VAST MAJORITY of scholars and historians that put their seal of approval on Books like NIV or King James Bibles as being historically and gramatically correct. ((Unlike they refute the J.W.'s Bible and say it's inaccurate))

-As for knowing and believeing...your right...they are different. But because of the Bible I can do Both. Know and believe!

-Alan

nitrorocks

iTrader: (28)

And....how is it you know this? That an individual's path to Heaven is through your heart and mind? Where is your proof in this....where did u read this at? or is this just your opinion?

ImGoinRCn

iTrader: (4)

For the origianal post, some scripture that says works will not save you but only faith through grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that He was born of a virgin, sinless, died on the cross for the sins of the world, a rose 3 literal days, and is coming again. Sounds crazy but I believe it.

Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ehp. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


For the heckler,(non-believer): You can say what you want. All this sounds crazy to most but you know, when all said and done, I'd rather it all be for nothing than nothing at all. Means, I'd rather belive and there be no God nor heaven than be without Him and and everything the bible said is true.

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

XXWoodmanXX

iTrader: (120)

Allow me to hop atop this fine little soapbox here one second......


A little background on me here...... I'm Roman Catholic(deeply-reformed, mind you) I grew up in this religion. Since I was born, religion has been a part of my life. Baptized at birth, went to Catholic primary school for 9 yrs (K - 8th Grade), then a Catholic Academy for the first 2 yrs (9th & 10th), then went to public high school until graduation. During that time, I was an alter boy for approx. 8-9 yrs. I was Confirmed under the Roman Catholic religion when I was 17 yrs old. Long-after, I attended church regularly, even through my time in the military, all the way up till I was 25 yrs old. I am now married w/ 2 children of my own, of which, both attend church regulary.


In all I've learned, I can definitely tell you one thing. It's a friggin' farse. I'll be rudamentary here, and say that it is a gross miss-interpretation of what we felt the scriptures, line-by-line, meant to us. Dare I say it, but it is much like how extremist islamics feel the Kuran is interpreted to them. A society can accept what they read, so long as it conforms to their ultimate agenda. Religious zealots out there thump their bible, pound their chests, and wag their finger to all those they feel have mis-interpreted what is read. Same goes for those of us what no longer follow the same said "agenda".

Here's how I feel the bible is interpreted. I remember back in elementary school (*ahem!* Catholic school) that we did a little test, to learn a lesson about rumors. The teacher(nun) starts by whispering a sentence in the first student's ear. Then, that student passes it along, verbatim, to the best of their ability to the next student in the line. Then so on, and so forth, until it gets to the end. The last student is then asked to come forth and speak the sentence aloud. At this point, the student body erupts with laughter when the spoken sentence is nothing like what was whispered to them moments before. You can say that, along the line, what was said got lost in translation from the beginning to the end.

As for those that stand against the theory of evolution,...well, science has alot more evidence than your "diety" does, that's for sure. Our society places judgement upon our peers with cold, hard facts, witness, and evidence as a foundation of decision. NOT based upon old falsified manuscripts that were mis-interpreted time and time again. In the grand scheme of things, we can label ourselves a flawed society. But I really feel that we started out that way from the word go.

We're not a highly-developed species? Ok, then. Why didn't we put man into space a couple hundred yrs ago? Why didn't we have high-speed internet a few centuries ago? Why didn't we start cloning DNA back when we were cro magnon?

In the end, here's how I see it. If you feel it helps you get thru your day to call upon/pray to a "higher power", then by all mean do so. But I've been there, done that, and got the alter-boy robe to prove it.

So, sorry if I've offended anyone. But I'm now a "Realist", in that I believe in what is presented before me as fact, NOT depicted hearsay of those before us.

XXWoodmanXX

iTrader: (120)

Sorry, but I'd also like to add a few things. First and foremost, I do NOT press my individual opinions on what I believe is a falsified following to my children. I allow them to find out for theselves, and allow them to follow their own path. If they feel better about attending church, then by all means, they certianly may. My in-laws(their grandparents) are very active in the christian community, and they certianly respect my position, as I respect theirs.

The one thing I hope they get out of it is, that it allows them to make righteous decisions in life, just as it has for me. Catholic primary can be a rough time, even at recess. Boys will be boys, and a 'problematic' child is never hesitant to start a fight. My earlier beliefs allowed me to make the right decisions, and walk away from such situations for instance. Or, when my grandmother was recovering from a heart attack, and my buddies wanted to go to the movies. I would decide to stay home, and go over and help my grandmother out the best I could, even if it's just to fetch her medication and play Yahtzee.