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Old 07-10-2005, 04:31 AM   #1
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Default Os Tz 3P VS NovaRossi NSR3

Hİ!
This is a new engine, and i like os in airplanes enigine,durability, etc. I picked up one of this engine but my order did not come to me yet. Os has no or less succes in races. Do you think this engine will do some work and could race against novarossi Nsr 3 and the new serie nll3 ? Any feed back on Tz vs nll3 or nsr3?
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Old 07-10-2005, 02:34 PM   #2
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I personally think the New LL from novarossi will destroy the OS on a long track.


Its a twin of the mugen x-12, both are long strokes.

The LL has fixed the dreaded fuel economy problem the x-12 has and is a little faster in general.

The NSR is an engine for technical tracks, it has a lot of low end but the LL or X-12 will pull harder on the mid range and top end.

The OS is a good engine for the money but if money isnt an issue, i'd take the LL, there is also a LL mod version at nitrohouse for $350, its a basic mod.
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Old 07-10-2005, 07:02 PM   #3
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I hate to keep saying this... but unless you've seen the new OS-TZ .12 3P run, you really can't pass judgement... When the NS3 came out a couple of years ago... That was the best motor bone stock out the box your money could buy... The new LL ns3 is a nice motor and I won't say it's not... but the TZ 12 is not a poor Man's Nova... It's a true MONSTER on the track.. Maybe it's just mine and the pipe I'm using, but My TZ-.12 3P has no problem what so ever with running against Collari's, EVO II & III's and current Nova based motors on large size tracks... That being REV and Crystal park out here in SoCal... It's funning when peeps ask me if I'm running the TZ-18 and I tell them it's the .12-3 port bone stock with no mods... I'll say this though, I've seen 2 TZ 5 ports that weren't as fast as my 3 port... Could have been there break in was not done correctly or the tune pipe they're using... Just today, one guy had the 5 port with the most current Skyline pipe and his still could'nt touch mine... Hey, if you got alittle extra money to spend and you like Nova based motors... Get it... But if you want something different that can not just keep up but spank the competition... You can't go wrong with the New TZ-12 3P... I've had the NS3, TSR3 & the RB V12... Each one costing over $250.00... And let's not add the cost of replacing the piston and sleeves... I just picked up and extra piston/sleeve and crank for my TZ-12 3P all for less then $75.00 to mod and put away when my current pieces wash out... Oh, and you get a 2 year warrenty on the stock parts too... Ok... but you all can see where I'm going with this... You can't loose with the TZ-12 3P both in cost and performance... Oh, if anyone is thinking about getting the TZ-12 3P, use either the Yokomo Mielke pipe, the Mugen racing pipe or any top end Nova based pipe to get the extra RPM's out of the motor... The TZ-12 3P is an RPM motor and make most of it's torque and power past 30,000 RPM's unlike the prior TR line that was mostly torque and so so on the power... I guess you all can see I'm happy with TZ-12...

RC_Alan

Last edited by rc_alan; 07-10-2005 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 07-10-2005, 07:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fsturbo15
I personally think the New LL from novarossi will destroy the OS on a long track.


Its a twin of the mugen x-12, both are long strokes.

The LL has fixed the dreaded fuel economy problem the x-12 has and is a little faster in general.

The NSR is an engine for technical tracks, it has a lot of low end but the LL or X-12 will pull harder on the mid range and top end.

The OS is a good engine for the money but if money isnt an issue, i'd take the LL, there is also a LL mod version at nitrohouse for $350, its a basic mod.
The LL and the X12 are not the same stroke. The NS, NSR, X, and the new N12LS are all the same stroke. The RR and the LL are the longer stroke. The longer stroke engines make more torque, the shorter strokes should make slightly more top.

I personally like the shorter stroke engines better. The X12 is basically the NS 12. According to the paperwork that comes with the engines the Mugen X12 is exactly the same as the NS 12 except the head button and the "writing" on the case and carb. Uriah Murnan swears it has different timing, but does admit that the part numbers on all the internals are exactly the same. The NSR is the same as the NS/X except it has the microcast piston and sleeve.

All of that being said, I have seen a number of the OS engines run and they are quite fast. Our track here is bigger than the track at Revelation and they have no problem keeping up. The only thing waiting to be seen is how well it holds up. No problem on horsepower.
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Last edited by Scott Fisher; 07-11-2005 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 07-10-2005, 07:54 PM   #5
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The x-12 is a long stroke dude.

And by the way, ACCORDING TO THE PAPERWORK, it clearly says NOVAROSSI ENGINE X-12 LONG STROKE ON-ROAD ENGINE.

The X-12 is not the same as the NS/NSR, i'm sorry.

I don't know what your driving skill is like but based on the way I drive I would get the long stroke. It's not about the top end, it's about the low to mid range torque where the engine will be most of the time on a track.

I use both the Mugen X12 and the Novarossi NS12S3. The X12 is a great engine since it has a true long stroke. Perfect for a technical track and when geared correctly it's a killer on a long straight (150' and longer). Where the other .12's top out, the X12 is still pulling hard. On the inner track where it is critical, the powerband is perfect. The X12 is for a mid sized/technical track. It has good power placement as well as excellent punch off the line.

The NS12 is for smaller tracks. It's a high reving engine and does well on the inner track as well but as I said earlier, it putters out on longer straights (unless geared correctly and shifting correctly).

I would choose the X12 over the NS12 any day. That is why my NS12 has become one of my 2 back up engines.


If you really want a long stroke, and it suits your driving style ... the Novarossi N12LL is an exact twin of the X12.







Like I said before, the LL is similer to the x-12, the fuel economy problem has been fixed and it puts out a few more HP.

I believe the LL is 1.58 while the X-12 is around 1.56, unsure though.

Last edited by Fsturbo15; 07-10-2005 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 07-11-2005, 12:40 AM   #6
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I had a rd logics turbo II pipe(klr). Does anyone tried this engine(TZ) with this pipe? It seems it has an optimized venturi and diffuzor, it might be good. And what about the fuel economy of TZ? Another subject is the engine to work properly, having less engine stop after an accident and when i want to start it must not be a killer. Any proplem about this subjects? We have some problems about novas when first starting.
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Old 07-11-2005, 02:02 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fsturbo15
The x-12 is a long stroke dude.

And by the way, ACCORDING TO THE PAPERWORK, it clearly says NOVAROSSI ENGINE X-12 LONG STROKE ON-ROAD ENGINE.

The X-12 is not the same as the NS/NSR, i'm sorry.

I don't know what your driving skill is like but based on the way I drive I would get the long stroke. It's not about the top end, it's about the low to mid range torque where the engine will be most of the time on a track.

I use both the Mugen X12 and the Novarossi NS12S3. The X12 is a great engine since it has a true long stroke. Perfect for a technical track and when geared correctly it's a killer on a long straight (150' and longer). Where the other .12's top out, the X12 is still pulling hard. On the inner track where it is critical, the powerband is perfect. The X12 is for a mid sized/technical track. It has good power placement as well as excellent punch off the line.

The NS12 is for smaller tracks. It's a high reving engine and does well on the inner track as well but as I said earlier, it putters out on longer straights (unless geared correctly and shifting correctly).

I would choose the X12 over the NS12 any day. That is why my NS12 has become one of my 2 back up engines.


If you really want a long stroke, and it suits your driving style ... the Novarossi N12LL is an exact twin of the X12.







Like I said before, the LL is similer to the x-12, the fuel economy problem has been fixed and it puts out a few more HP.

I believe the LL is 1.58 while the X-12 is around 1.56, unsure though.
OK dude. You asked for it. First, I didn't say the X12 isn't a long stroke. Yes the X12 is a long stroke. Its stroke is longer than its bore. The LL is a LONGER stroke than the X 12. So when compared to each other, the X12 has a shorter stroke than the LL.

The same piece of paper that you looked at calling the X12 a long stroke engine also will tell you if look closely that it is an NS12. If you still want to not believe me, look at the exploded view with the parts listing. They are the same. Same piston, sleeve, rod, crank, bearings, etc. Same bore, same stroke. I'm sorry, they are the same. Still don't want to believe me... Call Mugen and ask them. Forgot, they have a different cylinder head.

The N12 LS3 is the new long stroke. The N12 LL3 is the new LONGER stroke. The LS replaces the NSR which replaced the NS. The difference between the NS and NSR was the microcast piston/sleeve. When they went to the LS they changed the sleeve.

The LL replaces the RR12L3. The LL has a different sleeve.

Feel free to go to Novarossi's website and download the parts list and compare them to the Mugen X12 parts list. I was not trying to be a jerk, but simply correct inaccuracies. The differences you see in your engines may be in tuning or just your perception.

The LL is quite different than the X12. Different piston, sleeve, and crank.

Finally, the general difference. As you increase stroke, you increase torque. As you increase bore, you increase RPM. The RR and LL engines are torquier, and the NSR/LS is a more revvy (yeah I know that isn't a real word) top speed engine. The simple reason is as follows. Shorter stroke, the piston has to travel a shorter distance to complete a cycle. This makes it rev easier.
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Last edited by Scott Fisher; 07-11-2005 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 07-11-2005, 02:29 AM   #8
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wow ! this is so informative.
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Old 07-11-2005, 03:18 AM   #9
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"Finally, the general difference. As you increase stroke, you increase torque. "

I think there is a nuance here, when the stroke length increases the diameter of the cranksaft(path of it) gets bigger and it will take more time to travel in this path so rpm decreases and you have to increase the bore diameter(Mean more torque) too because engine must have volume 0.12 cubic inch. These are the optimization problems and i think the H/S ratio is important is ti bigger than 1 or less, etc.
I am new in this forum and it is great i think, i learn much things.

Last edited by ontheroad; 07-11-2005 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 07-11-2005, 03:58 AM   #10
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well well
ontheroad got himself a OS .12 TZ 3 port and I got myself a N12LS3 3 port. My engine arrived couple of days ago. Started break in yesterday but car ( Serpent Impulse) has minor problems with the clutch. Therefore I couldn't complete the whole break-in process yet.
His engine will probably arrive this week as well.
We race on the same track. It's a quiet fast track, where with a good setup you can be on full power for app. 60-70 % of the track. There we will see which engine is the one!! :-) I personally am looking forward to hitting gas on that long straight.
Looks like good and fun times are ahead.
I'll keep posted on the engines performances.
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Old 07-11-2005, 04:14 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaalp
well well
ontheroad got himself a OS .12 TZ 3 port and I got myself a N12LS3 3 port. My engine arrived couple of days ago. Started break in yesterday but car ( Serpent Impulse) has minor problems with the clutch. Therefore I couldn't complete the whole break-in process yet.
His engine will probably arrive this week as well.
We race on the same track. It's a quiet fast track, where with a good setup you can be on full power for app. 60-70 % of the track. There we will see which engine is the one!! :-) I personally am looking forward to hitting gas on that long straight.
Looks like good and fun times are ahead.
I'll keep posted on the engines performances.
Everybody place your bets! I'll have $10,000 on the Novarossi to blow the OS into the weeds! They are just not in the same league!

aalp, make sure your clutch is set up good befor the race!
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Old 07-11-2005, 04:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rody
Everybody place your bets! I'll have $10,000 on the Novarossi to blow the OS into the weeds! They are just not in the same league!

aalp, make sure your clutch is set up good befor the race!
Both of the clutch is 2 shoe type clutch, mine is racing clutch but. But two speed is less efficient than impulse; It is rs43 .
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Old 07-11-2005, 04:31 AM   #13
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Well,
Guess I'm gonna buy a Centax-II for my Impulse. I was running the standard 2 shoe clutch w/o any problems so far with the Novamega SX.12 SE. That engine was also doing well, but in comparison to the Rossi, it is like a joke. Now from what I have found out so far (thanks for the info of Glenn Cauley by the way) the clutch is not good enough for this engine, so gonna get a Centax II.
Ontheroad is driving an HPI RS4 so it's gonna be a piece of cake to kick his ass. There is also another rival, a Mugen MTX3 with a Novarossi NSR12S3.
As I said, good times are ahead! :-)

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Old 07-11-2005, 02:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Fisher
OK dude. You asked for it. First, I didn't say the X12 isn't a long stroke. Yes the X12 is a long stroke. Its stroke is longer than its bore. The LL is a LONGER stroke than the X 12. So when compared to each other, the X12 has a shorter stroke than the LL.

The same piece of paper that you looked at calling the X12 a long stroke engine also will tell you if look closely that it is an NS12. If you still want to not believe me, look at the exploded view with the parts listing. They are the same. Same piston, sleeve, rod, crank, bearings, etc. Same bore, same stroke. I'm sorry, they are the same. Still don't want to believe me... Call Mugen and ask them. Forgot, they have a different cylinder head.

The N12 LS3 is the new long stroke. The N12 LL3 is the new LONGER stroke. The LS replaces the NSR which replaced the NS. The difference between the NS and NSR was the microcast piston/sleeve. When they went to the LS they changed the sleeve.

The LL replaces the RR12L3. The LL has a different sleeve.

Feel free to go to Novarossi's website and download the parts list and compare them to the Mugen X12 parts list. I was not trying to be a jerk, but simply correct inaccuracies. The differences you see in your engines may be in tuning or just your perception.

The LL is quite different than the X12. Different piston, sleeve, and crank.

Finally, the general difference. As you increase stroke, you increase torque. As you increase bore, you increase RPM. The RR and LL engines are torquier, and the NSR/LS is a more revvy (yeah I know that isn't a real word) top speed engine. The simple reason is as follows. Shorter stroke, the piston has to travel a shorter distance to complete a cycle. This makes it rev easier.

Whatever you say man, look at my post again,


The X-12 is CLEARLY a different engine, they DO NOT perform the same.

I have no idea if you have tried both engines but maybe you have and can tell us how they compared.

I'm not gonna bother gettting technical, all I know is, they do not perform the same.
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Old 07-11-2005, 09:06 PM   #15
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I no longer own my NS12S3 but did own one and ran it for about two gallons of fuel. I still own my X12, which I purchased before I found it they are the same. I do remember that one of the people out here thought the Mugen was a little stronger, but I couldn't really tell a difference. There certainly wasn't enough difference that couldn't be associated to age, or tuning. I will also say that I sold the Nova about 9 months ago so my memories of it are a little dated. As I said originally, Uriah Murnan swears they have different crank timing, but according to Mugen USA, they are the same. Also, when comparing the part numbers for the engine, they are the same. My info is based upon verbal info as well as written info from Mugen and Novarossi. They were/are great engines as stock engines go. Between the two, I would reccomend the Nova NS over the Mugen only for the reason that if you can find the nova (they still show up on ebay brand new quite often) it will cost less. Why pay more for the same engine???

So far, my favorite engine is a hotmod version of the NSR. I have a LS hotmod on the way. I am anxious to try it out.

I will add that you are not the first person that thinks they perform differently
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