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Old 07-11-2005, 09:25 PM   #16
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Interesting.



For my next engine, I will probably get a NovaMAX MF modified.

So as far as the LL and LS go, how do they differ
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Old 07-11-2005, 11:13 PM   #17
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[QUOTE=Fsturbo15]Interesting.



For my next engine, I will probably get a NovaMAX MF modified.

So as far as the LL and LS go, how do they differ[/QUOTE

The LS is the new version of the NSR. These two engines have the same rod, piston and crank. They have a different sleeve.

The LL is the new version of the RR. As above. These two engines have the same rod, piston and crank. They have a different sleeve.

The important differences between the NSR and the RR is they made the RR a longer stroke engine. In order to do this, they changed the piston, sleeve and the crank. Same for the LS vs the LL. Different piston, sleeve and crank.

All of them use the same rod.
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Old 07-11-2005, 11:33 PM   #18
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[QUOTE=Scott Fisher]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fsturbo15
Interesting.



For my next engine, I will probably get a NovaMAX MF modified.

So as far as the LL and LS go, how do they differ[/QUOTE

The LS is the new version of the NSR. These two engines have the same rod, piston and crank. They have a different sleeve.

The LL is the new version of the RR. As above. These two engines have the same rod, piston and crank. They have a different sleeve.

The important differences between the NSR and the RR is they made the RR a longer stroke engine. In order to do this, they changed the piston, sleeve and the crank. Same for the LS vs the LL. Different piston, sleeve and crank.

All of them use the same rod.

Just spoke to a friend.

I was told this.



*timing is different

*conrod length is different

*crank is different

He has had both engines side by side.

Last edited by Fsturbo15; 07-12-2005 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 07-12-2005, 01:49 AM   #19
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[QUOTE=Fsturbo15]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Fisher


Just spoke to a friend.

I was told this.



*timing is different

*conrod length is different

*crank is different

He has had both engines side by side.
This will be the last post I make debating this. So now I should believe your friend. My info comes from the following. Intially not knowing any better I spoke to my friend who told me they are the same engines. I said to my friend, "dude they are all the same?" and my friend Steve O'Donnell said again " same engine". So then I called Mugen and spoke to someone. He said they are the same. Then I went ahead and compared the exploded view with the engine part numbers... Guess what.. they are the same. So, Steve O'Donnell is wrong, the guy at Mugen is wrong, then using the written paperwork, Mugen is wrong and so is Novarossi. We are all wrong, and you and your friend are right. Theoretically it is possible. I live in Vegas, and that is one bet I won't make.

To anyone who has been reading this and actually cares, check for yourself. The info is availble in writing from the manufacturer.

Fsturbo: I have been having a problem with Novarossi's website but I am sure it will be working soon. Check for yourself. You said you have an NS and an X12. If you still have the paperwork compare them. When the new engines were coming out, I already checked and wrote down the part numbers. I still have the part number for the piston, sleeve, rod and crank for the NS, NSR, RR, LS and LL. I am not making this stuff up, but you are "that guy" that seems to want to believe what you want to despite the facts. Obviously I am not going to convince you so I say again check it out yourself.
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Last edited by Scott Fisher; 07-12-2005 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 07-12-2005, 01:50 AM   #20
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Old 07-12-2005, 12:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Fisher
I dont care, until you havnt took both engines apart and compared them, I could care less whatt your "reading" or "asking" has told you.

I like to test and see things for my self Scott Fisher, maybe thats why you cant seem to understand my point.

All the things mentioned above, the changes, maybe if yopu get to take apart both engines, see for your self.

Now your probably asking your self, why should you believe my friend, well maybe because he owns or has owned every single engine mentioned in this entire thread and has actually taken apart the NS and X-12 to compare them side by side.
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Old 07-12-2005, 02:04 PM   #22
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i love this kind of convercations.
Just to say, TZ is very good motor, but I saw it last weekend at CP and on end of stright way it was only 34000 RPM, NS12 was 36000, Rex RER 36000.
And what most important is that all of them had different speped.
OS is very old established company, which very well know to produce most reliable engines. also it is not secret that they keep 70% market of nitro engines. But most of those years OS was targeting reliability and performance wasn't main target. TR and now TZ seems like their very good debuts, but still behind brands like Novarossi and Sirio in power side. BTW I saw piston blew up on TZ in powder.
All Novarossi engines are very similar (13.76X14.04), but all of them have some difference-induction timing, ports capacity, case volume etc. Some numbers is very close but still of from each other. I don't care what web site sad about part ####, I mesure them, cut on small pcs, mesured weight of everything, put on balancing stand to check static and dynamic balancing etc.
They are different!!!!!!!!
Whatever you guys have on your car, just make sure you use all 100% power this engine can produce.
Edward
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Old 07-12-2005, 02:35 PM   #23
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It was very informative. Thank you for it.
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Old 07-12-2005, 03:17 PM   #24
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Quote:
Some numbers is very close but still of from each other. I don't care what web site sad about part ####, I mesure them, cut on small pcs, mesured weight of everything, put on balancing stand to check static and dynamic balancing etc.
QFT, until Scott Fisher can say he has taken apart both engines side by side and proove that the Crankshaft, Timming, and Conrod are the same, I could care less.

Until then, I will believe my friend that those things differ and it makes complete sense since the engines perform different.
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Old 07-12-2005, 03:56 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Fisher

Finally, the general difference. As you increase stroke, you increase torque. As you increase bore, you increase RPM. The RR and LL engines are torquier, and the NSR/LS is a more revvy (yeah I know that isn't a real word) top speed engine. The simple reason is as follows. Shorter stroke, the piston has to travel a shorter distance to complete a cycle. This makes it rev easier.
Hey Scott, how is going.
I am sure you can easy explain that is why 14.04 stroke engines revving higher then 14.25 (it is only .21 mm or 1.4% difference in stroke). The bore diameter is 0.06mm or 0.43% difference. How RPMS or torque change with this small difference? I am not interested data from web sites, just your filling. I havenít seen any of 14.25 mm engines faster infield then 14.04 mm.
If we assume that ports lay outs are the same, the exhaust difference will be about 1 degree (14.25-157.7/14.04-158.8), so dwelt time of combustion pressure is about absolutely the same-means with all differences mentioned before-no real difference in performance.
Just for references, go to my web site (www.palmarisracing.com) and in downloads you will find timing calculating software. I am sure it will be very helpful to figure out which engine perform and where is curve can be expected.
Best regards
Edward
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Old 07-12-2005, 09:36 PM   #26
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Hey Top Gun... I'm not going to call you out because you're my friend... I saw you at the track and you saw my motor the TZ-12 3P in my Mongoose/G4... My gearing was taller and that's what's caused my RPM's to be a tad bit down... Doing some testing to see if my motor could turn the taller gearing and testing a new K-Factory UFO push clutch... No motor or car could touch my car's speed on the end field or the back straight... Ask anyone at the track... Your motor is nice and anyone looking for a nice piece of Art in a nitro motor should give Top Gun's motor a look... My TZ 3P is bone stock... Untouched and unmoded... Nothing special... Just an P7 plug, 30% nitro and the
Mielke pipe... Now let me say this... Is the TZ the fastest motor on the planet... lol NO... But when broken in correctly, tuned correctly and matched with the right tuned pipe, it can scream and hold it's own with any motor on the market... Mine is just plan fast... I've seen others that weren't as fast... Different car, different setup and so on...
I'll see you at CP Saturday TopGun and have a great week... You work to hard... Like me...

RC_Alan

Last edited by rc_alan; 07-13-2005 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 07-12-2005, 11:24 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Gun 777
i love this kind of convercations.
Just to say, TZ is very good motor, but I saw it last weekend at CP and on end of stright way it Whatever you guys have on your car, just make sure you use all 100% power this engine can produce.
Edward
Now I find where you've been Edward, you just love getting into this kind of thread.....
trying out new gearing this week, will let you know if that data from the software help.
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Old 07-13-2005, 12:11 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Fisher
The LS is the new version of the NSR. These two engines have the same rod, piston and crank. They have a different sleeve.

The LL is the new version of the RR. As above. These two engines have the same rod, piston and crank. They have a different sleeve.

The important differences between the NSR and the RR is they made the RR a longer stroke engine. In order to do this, they changed the piston, sleeve and the crank. Same for the LS vs the LL. Different piston, sleeve and crank.

All of them use the same rod.
hi, I have a NSR S5 that I want to change to a 3 port for more torque - short track, unfortunately none of the local shops have S3 sleeve. From the above info. it looks possible to do this by fitting a LS 3 port sleeve into my existing S5. Can anyone confirm if this is really the case? I hate to be spending on the new sleeve to find out that it doesn't work, worse blowing up the rest of the motor. Cheers.
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Old 07-13-2005, 06:29 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one-nil
hi, I have a NSR S5 that I want to change to a 3 port for more torque - short track, unfortunately none of the local shops have S3 sleeve. From the above info. it looks possible to do this by fitting a LS 3 port sleeve into my existing S5. Can anyone confirm if this is really the case? I hate to be spending on the new sleeve to find out that it doesn't work, worse blowing up the rest of the motor. Cheers.
Yes you can change from 5 to 3 port piston/liner within the same construction-it will fit perfectly.
About performance-it is questionable-some people claim that 5 ports is faster and I personaly doubt it. If you use good 3 P/L set with outlaw carb and pipe it will be as fast as 5 port if not faster.
Edward
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Old 07-13-2005, 07:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rc_alan
Hey Top Gun... I'm not going to call you out because you're my friend... I saw you at the track and you saw my motor the TZ-12 3P in my Mongoose/G4... My gearing was taller and that's what's caused my RPM's to be a tad bit down... Doing some testing to see if my motor could turn the taller gearing and testing a new K-Factory UFO push clutch... No motor or car could touch my car's speed on the end field or the back straight... Ask anyone at the track... Your motor is nice and anyone looking for a nice piece of Art in a nitro motor should give Top Gun's motor a look... My TZ 3P is bone stock... Untouched and unmoded... Nothing special... Just an P7 plug, 30% nitro and the
Mielke pipe... Now let me say this... Is the TZ the fastest motor on the planet... lol NO... But when broken in correctly, tuned correctly and matched with the right tuned pipe, it can scream and hold it's own with any motor on the market... Mine is just plan fast... I've seen others that weren't as fast... Different car, different setup and so on...
I'll see you at CP Saturday TopGun and have a great week... You work to hard... Like me...

RC_Alan
Hi Alan.
Yes, we are friends and I am not regreting it.
I never sad yout TZ is slow, what I sad it is that I mesure 34 0000 RPM.
I still think Novarossi and Sirio faster engines even out of the box. I saw Ron Atomic running his TZ at O'Donnell and it was really fast. He TQ in Las Vegas on stock TZ. But still I think that Novas and Sirios are faster.
About RPM-not neccessary more RPM is better. Some engines has power curve when if you bring it to 43000 RPM you gear ratio and tires roll out will be really small and speed will be slower and in the same time some motors can turn really "heavy" gearing and bring ammezing speed at 39000 RPM.
BTW, it is much safer to run on top of curve then on down hill-small deaccelaration for any reason will bring motor RPM instantly down and it will not recover till end of straight.
About stock or modded-this is really big question, yours TZ is stock and it is really fast, but why do you think stock can't be made right on factory fast?
The things like cuts on sleeve and other dremeling don't give anything not in performance not in anywhere. You know I don't cut my sleeves and recomend everybody to don't do it. Timng of events make difference, port configuration make difference, passing channel in cranck make huge difference, turbo scoop not really, combination of expantion rates on P/L make huge difference. TZ motor initialy done very good and it doesn't need to make a lot of changes, only central hole needs to be rebore from 7 mm to let's say 8 mm and motor will be really really fast. So modding and non modding it is more in our heads. You know there is some motors which you can mode very seriously, everything can be brought to specs, but still they are not fast at all, whatever you do-they are slow, other motors out of the box very fast and not required to do anything. It is mostly haw we use it, how we efficient, how we can use all power from motor on the track.
See you Saturday on CP. I will still continue collect data by my new software. Very interesting numbers poping up.
Edward
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