Roelof

I am not talking about running engines out of fuel.

I have runned some oils and did a test with a small cup with a bodem of oil and on top a drop of water. All castror oils I have seen (Shell, Castrol, Rizol and Eurol) had a day later still the drop of water on it. With the Synthetic oils I had (Tex-M and MSSR) you could see the water was taken by the oil.

In the specs of some synthetic oils (like MSSR) is written when using it as a 2-stroke oil it is adviseable to treat the engine afterwards with a castor oil.

The reason for rust is basicly the burned nitro that has turned into an acid. That is a fact but if that is the truth then all fuels must have it. So far I have seen fuels (for a part) based on castor oil do protect an engine very well without the use of an afterrun. All fuels I have seen pure based on synthetic oils give less protection. In my opinion it is more the castor oil keaping away the water and because it is more sticky it will give a better layer on the metal parts keeping it airtight.

And there is another reason for rust what we have seen. That is when a (cheap) methanol is used which is not as pure as you want it to have and contains more water..

NAA

Tipping the fuel out of the tank dosent burn off the fuel still left in the engine. You MUST detsach the fuel line and then hit the engine up on te box with ignitor on to burn off all fuel in the engine. If you leave it in there it will rust your engine.

NAA

Correct burned nitro turns back into its former which is a form of nitric acid however if it dosent have water present it cant create a ferric oxide which is rust. Methanol present in all nitro based fuels is hygroscopic, meaning it attracts water.

I have seen engines run exclusively on castor full of rust internally. Even castor cannot resist nitric acid.

Its a myth. Only proper after run care can help maintain an engine properly.

Naa

NAA

The highest performing nitro model fuels are all synthetic. I know, i designed one thats won every major meet in australia this year and broken a world record. and when you look inside the engine is clean as a whistle and a nice coating of oil. One of the oils we use is a synthetic castor. Meaning it has all the protective properties of castor but without the negatives. Its a synthetc. SYNTHETIC. Syn - thetic.

Modders, i am an engine modder. Dont ask people who know nothing about the science of oils. Why would a modder know about oils if they dont design fuels? Its like asking a plummer advise on tiling a kitchen. I know you mean well and i dont want to appear rude but you are spreading rumours which has no basis on scientific experiemntation or definitive conclusion. Unless you design fuels that have been succesful and stood the rigours of a demanding market then you shouldnt comment on the science or factual data. Sorry but thats just spreading rumour and conjecture.

Eg, people still think you need to tune engines from the HSN first because people still propogate this un truth. This causes a lot of problems for people and its damaging the nitro sport. In fact the opposite is true.

Regarding Novarossi, its premium italian fuel called Runner Time, which is THE choice of fuel for on road racing internationally, is a full synthetic. On the bottle it states it is 8% synthetic castor. Synthetic, castor, meaning it has no natural mineral castor in it. It is a synthetic with the same centistoke value, meaning its viscocity at 100c which is about a 9.5 cst.

So, if you dig deeper you will find that castor is old technology. Novarossi want some castor in the fuel to help with abating rust because they know people dont after run engines properly and castor can help but its not a failsafe.

Nitro fuels made to a bottom line, ie cost driven should have castor because they cut a corner with the synthetic. A well designed fuel designed to ultimate performance with a good synthetic dosent need castor.

I know, i know, your friend told you otherwise. Who told your friend? Another mate? Who tild him? A bloke at the track? Who tild him? His mate on an internet forum. . .

You are welcome to believe whatever you like but unless you do scientific research with actual definitive data then you are spreading conjecture and harming the sport. You should be interested in facts.

Again, i dont want to come across as rude. Debate is a good thing and indeed where we learn. So i thank you for your opinions. The article on castor was a good read. My problem with it is this. When people come to me with an engine worth 30 k + asking how to get all the varnish off the pipe and piston and internals, because its causing performance problems, then i tell them to stop listening to rumours about castor and use a full synthetic thats stable at high temps. At extreme temps castor varnishes your engine, can anyone tell me why you would want that? Varnish! In your engine! Not good :-)

It costs about 800 - 1000 bucks to de varnish a race engine. Not cheap.

Synthetics, good synthetics, not cheap ones, are the best lubricant in the world. Glycol based synthetics do attract moisture. Ester based synthetics do not.

What do people use as after run? ATO! which is an ester based synthetic :-) not castor, why dont they just use castor as an after run instead if its so good?

Stuff to think about :-)

Naa

NAA

We are the asia south pacific distributor of two types of extreme high purpose ester synthetic. One is ultra heavy which is a synthetic type of castor except its been designed to be stable at hig temps, no gum or varnish and far better sheering strength than castor can give. we use this one in our model fuels. Its a brilliant oil, its cst value is over 10.5 @ 100 deg c which is perfect. Meaning it has the strength to coat the piston on the down stroke under heat and still create a barrier between the piston and cylinder wall. People double their model engine life with this fuel.

Then we have our super heavy UCL synth. This is used in nascar, formila one boats and is methanol and benzene soluble. Flash point is 900 deg c + :-) which is more than double that of castor and again it is thermally stable and wont do bizzare things to your engine at high temps. cst at 100 deg c is over 14 :-) which is remarkable.

Pm me for details.

Cheers

Naa

NAA

I know andi, i have been running full synhetics for almost ten years and my data shows a high quality ester synthetic can protect and perform better than castor.

Its the same old syndrome. If scientists finally found difinitive proof of darwinism people would still insist that god created us 4000 years ago. Its letting go of a belief that they have a lot invested in and people find it hard to accept they had a falce belief. Some will still insist their theory is correct all the way to the funny farm. Lol

NitroVein

Natural castor oil has Nothing to do with mineral oil, itīs from a bush.
Natural castor oil is about 19cst @ 100c.

The CAS-No I have on a bottle of Runnertime is 8001-79-4. That is natural castor oil.

If you know something about oils, then you should know why the varnish of the castor is something you can live with... (If you run high end engines with a high end budget you donīt concern your self with maintenance cost)
The high-end POE is often made from castor and then fortified with castor when used in 2-strokes...

I donīt want to come across as rude, but you know how it is, someone is reading something on the internet and tells a friend who tells a friend and so on...

Personally I use synthetics that are in the range of about 13-33cst @ 100c, both POE and PAG. With a mix of castor.
Why? The PAG absorbs high amounts of water, so it can be good for avoiding rust.
The POE is slippery and will give long engine life. (and are also absorbing high amount of water)
And when all of those synthetics have burned and/or getting thin, the castor is getting thicker and is helping out as an insurance.

I tune my engine by turning in the needles until it starts to loose power and then back it out slightly. The engine I used to test fuels on this summer has seen something in the range of 4-5 gallons and has just stop getting stuck when started cold...

Flash point is one thing, but is not the whole truth. If you are a fuel expert you should know that. (Iīm doing research for my own use)

Iīm also well aware about how good oils there are out there and that most fuel mfg cheap out and uses "good enough" oils.
But in all honesty, you just sound like someone who is trying to sell something... and Iīm not saying that to be rude.

NAA

Well now we are getting somewhere. Thank you for your post. This is what i was hoping for, some facts and figures.

The cst value of an undiluted castor would be between 19 to 35 cst @ 100 c if it were on its own and depending on its make. I know you understand castor brands vary in viscosity. Now when you dilute an oil you do lower its cst by volume. So effectively in the combustion process diluted its effective cst is reduced. I can tell you now running an engine with a 19 cst at temp would not rev out very well. This would be too thick for high revving engines. Its actual cst would be about a 9 by volume diluted.

Regarding runner time if you can get your hands on some base stock, ie its raw oil bottle it reads " synthetic castor base " . so define what you want from that. It is made by castrol i believe but thats a guess. It smells a lot like castrol when burned.

Mineral is plant based. Plants are made up of about 9 minerals so they are considered a mineral based primary.

I cant get my head around your comment about people with high end engines not concerning them selves with maintenance costs? Was that a joke? Surely you dont know everybody with a hig end engine in the world and they told you they dont care about maintenance costs? Hmmm

Anyway, i agree with you, if you are using standard glycol or poly based synthetics you should use a castor. It will out perform basil oils like these but the properties of an esterfied synthetic is on a while other level. Your glycol oil cst at 100 c diluted will come down to about a 7 cst if you are using about 6 - 8 %.

Re flash point. Its a huge indicator and it one of the most important factors in oil tech.

A flash point is an indicator to what type of oil to use ofr an application. Eg exhaust temps of 300 to 350 c typically for maximum reduced engine wear should use an oil base of 400 to 600 c flash.

Exhaust temps of 700 c would require a flash point over 800 for prolonged wide open throttle use such as in nascar and formula one boat racing.

Its a factor, not the only one, which i never stated, but an important one.

And i thank you for challenging me on this. This is how we all learn.

So what sort of application are you using your fuel in?

Naa

NitroVein

I couldn't agree more with you about that learning is about challenging what we know, so that we can evolve.

Itīs just that you sounded like a seller and I have spoke to a few of those representing oil mfg... Itīs another story when you talk to a chemist working for the oil mfg, they will tell you the hard details without any "coating".

It might be Castrol that Runnertime is using, I donīt know and talking to seller of Castrol will give you new data every time. "Yes itīs castor oil, but with synthetic added!" "No, itīs synthetics made from fatty acids from the castor oil!" and so on...
But CAS.No. is not likely to be tampered with, but it might also be that they as a end user only have to declare base stocks over certain %..?

Yes, mineral oil comes from organics. But then POE is also partly made from that...

I donīt know everyone with high-end engine in the world, not even close!
But I do know several engine builders that build high-end engines, some with price tags of over $70k. They divide the cost between build and maintenance, and the oils they use is not what you would expect from reading any ad.

When you speak of diluted oil, is that after the mix with methanol?
I talk about them in their form as in the bottle and do my calculations based on that, as I donīt have the equipment to do sample test on residue.

I agree that flash point is of great consideration, but when you add pressure and a certain time that you subject the oil for this, other things comes to light. Temperatures in the combustion is well over that of what any oil (that I know of) is capable of handling.
The oil that doesn't get blown out the pipe and stays on top of the piston will in the case of synthetics burn without any residue and the castor will leave varnish. Exhaust valves etc is another story as the oil is subjected to high temperatures over a long time there. The castor will build up on varnish on those places and therefore need some cleaning from time to time, so there is a difference in if you use the engine for high-end competition or on daily base.

Iīm using my fuel for both RC-cars and planes. The reason I started to mix my own fuel is because I use many different fuels and the fuels available wasn't the ones i did like, now I wouldn't go back to any of the fuels that I have tried. Not that the fuels available is bad, but the ones I have tried is not the best.
But there is probably a reason why the fuels are made from the oil that they are made from, I think itīs more of geography and patents then of anything else.

houston

iTrader: (96)

Sooooo , how many of the "high end" engines actually burn the oil that is also being used as the lubricating media for all moving parts

Castor oil is very important in our 2 stroke style of engines , some manufacturers have it figured out and some try to use full synthetic which is very bad for bearings and creating a film seal for the front bearing .


I get to see so many engines and what the fuels do to the internals

available Full synthetic fuels are horrible for bearing longevity

edit: agree with neal on the "there could be better" synthetics out there that would work well for our micromotors but until somebody works on developing an actual synthetic castor that maintains many of the actual lubricating properties , flash points and ability to carry debris through a combustion process out the exhaust we will never know the true benefits of a full synthetic ........ i am unimpressed with some fuels that are available these days , great in the performance dept. when you learn how the oil package needs to be tuned but not so good for the most part in the wear category . there really arent any engines other than our simple diesel/two stroke engines that breathe and receive fuel like ours , simple yet so complex due to the fact that it burns the fuel it lubricates its moving parts with

Maximo

iTrader: (11)

All I know is that I do not feel I personally know enough to make any assumptions here one way or the other............ I have not personally tested all the different synthetic oils available, and I have no idea of the quality or type that is being used in the local fuel industry and if the brands I have experienced really display the full capabilities of synthetic lubricants or not....But what I can say with absolute certainty is that the pure synthetic brands I have tested have not performed very well in the longevity department...with a almost trademark rapid wearing of the crankpin that went across all the brands I have tested.... Now there are a couple fuels that I have used with great success which I have no idea of what type of lubricant it is using , as the manufacturers will not disclose any official information on the type or quantity of their lubricant package they are using.... I speculate they are using a castor, but without lab testing I truly don't know one way or the other, they may very well be running synthetic... What I do know for sure is that the fuels I know that use castor have definitely performed better for us then the fuels which do not contain castor....However this may only be nothing more then a result of the fuels I tested just using cheap synthetics... until I test a fuel that I know contains one of these super Ester based lubricants I really can't speculate one way or the other....

NitroVein

+1
That is my conclusion also, that the bearings last longer with castor.
It seems like the castor creates a cushion that helps the bearings take some load. High viscosity synthetics creates a lot of other problems before they start to help out the bearings.
But thatīs just my conclusion so far...

But we do need to remember that one follows the other. Engines are developed with the fuels that are on the market and fuels are developed with the engines that are on the market.
Different tolerances in bearings etc might help out with different fuels.

NAA

This is good , some critical thinking.

Quote NV

When you speak of diluted oil, is that after the mix with methanol?
I talk about them in their form as in the bottle and do my calculations based on that, as I donīt have the equipment to do sample test on residue.

Yes , an oils CST will reduce if it is diluted. Its CST remains the same when re collected but in suspension its over all viscocity reduces. Most oil specs dont take into account dilution.

Yes basic synthetics glycol poly based in particular do have lower flash points. This is why you use a castor to pad out the oil package.

New oil technology thats been developed has greatly improved it stability and flash point. When designing a fuel your first port of call is recording exhaust temps for the application. This is crutial. Piston scuffing on lean runs , even not lean runs happen when the oil breaks down. Ive seen this with Glycol and castor based fuels. Yes you can still damage an engine with castor in it. Its not a fail safe.

Houston

" Sooooo , how many of the "high end" engines actually burn the oil that is also being used as the lubricating media for all moving parts

Rotary race engines, Nascar use dry sump but also have upper cylinder lube , F1 -2 - 3 boat racing, typically half V6 Mercury converted engines which are two stroke, Most high end racing engine use an upper cylinder lubricant, its a smart way to go.

Castor oil is very important in our 2 stroke style of engines , some manufacturers have it figured out and some try to use full synthetic which is very bad for bearings and creating a film seal for the front bearing .

I get to see so many engines and what the fuels do to the internals

available Full synthetic fuels are horrible for bearing longevity "

Well id contecnt the fuels you have tried may have average synthetics ,but this dosent mean all of them do . And can i correct you on bearing life. All bearings internally in micro engines only need about 1% of the oil present in the fuel to last to their material life expectantcy. Ask a decent engineer, the bearing cops the least of the load. The crank pin is number 1 followed by the Piston skirt then the bearing.

Bearings packing it in are typically but not limited to bad quality, or more likely a streched crank case forced into an un even mount.

Maximo

good analysis ! when i test an oil my first test is i mix it with methanol on a dish and burn it. I then hit it with a butane torch to see how long before it ignites and then i notice its smoke and residue. If its suitable i then use it in a shearing test and pipe filter gram. This is the most definitive way to see whats coming out the pipe under a 500 micron scope. The less metal particle per CM the better the oils protection properties.

Castor is pretty nice in protecting but dont compare its validity to basically avail synthetic oils. I understand our sport is subject maybe to lesser quality because it dosent have to withstand the rigours of full scale racing. But in full scale racing the buck stops with you if you choose un wisely.

My preference for esterfied synthetics is because of their thermal stability and lubricative qualities under extreme pressure without causing varnish.

If you were to test a well designed all synthetic ester based fuel you would see what i mean. Its hard to demonstrate without actually trying so i understand its hard to grasp.

Look outside our sport and see the great majority of high end moto sport applications use esterfied synthetics. This is an indicator to its validity.

Just a conclusion i want to share. about 4 years ago i worked with an F2 boat racer here who was very competitive. He rebuilt an engine from scratch and decided to run it exclusively on our ester synth. He used to use a mineral based synthetic. He used to do an engine rebuild every 800 litres, thats approximately 4 race meets. When he used our ester synth the engine was still going great at 2500 litres . This saved him about 80 K a year in rebuilds .

You cant fault data like this. Proof is in the pudding always.

Thanks for the chats ! this is a good thread for learning. Its definitely getting me thinking.

Naa

nitroexpress

Varnish caused by castor oil is a protector. Not a bad thing in overheat situations.

What high end moto sport applications are you referencing and what specific engines are they using?

Mineral based synthetic? Are you referencing a blend of castor and synthetic?

sschultz

iTrader: (15)

I'm glad my Byrons fuel seems to work good for me. I do love the info being discussed tho, very interesting. I feel like in listening in on a conversation that I'm not suppose to. Keep the debate going, I love it...