Late 2010 best buy on Engines
12-22-2010, 02:16 PM
#61
12-22-2010, 02:22 PM
#62
These types of threads keep me entertained during a long boring day of work. My local board fell off the maps a few months ago and no more Sgrid = lots of time to debate on Tech.
12-22-2010, 02:30 PM
#63
What happened to the Sgrid??? I used to hang out on there all the time a couple of years ago. It was the place for all of the hardcore racers to hang when this forum was full of bashers.
12-22-2010, 02:33 PM
#64
12-22-2010, 02:48 PM
#65
HAHA WOW! This thread blew up! It is funny watching the manufacturers and distributors fling poo at each other. 
The MTE engine is a 5 port, so it will offer up a little more grunt and less mileage. Of course we choke most of the engines down with a 6.5 insert and the epa turned down, so wanting more power doesn't make too much sense. If you are running the MTE engine, full noodle in a buggy is just too much power.
The MTE engine is a 5 port, so it will offer up a little more grunt and less mileage. Of course we choke most of the engines down with a 6.5 insert and the epa turned down, so wanting more power doesn't make too much sense. If you are running the MTE engine, full noodle in a buggy is just too much power.
12-22-2010, 03:27 PM
#66
Tech Elite
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Fort Worth, Texas, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
Posts: 4,034
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
The only Werks I personally owned was a B7 Pro, it needed a rod at about 6.5 gallons but everything else was good. Gave it to a buddy with a budget even tighter than mine, he put a rod in and ran it several more gallons. And that engine would RIP!
I don't now yet how long my Alpha will last, it is at about 3 gallons now... I've been racing it since about 3/4 gallon but it gradually got better and better from there to about the 2 gallon mark. It is STUPID fast now... let's see how long it lasts.
It doesn't matter to me what others are getting out of an engine... it matters what I can get out of one.
The B7 at $309 when I bought it was better "bang for the buck" than the $279 VSPEC because it lasted twice as long. (It was stronger too...)
If the Alpha last 5 gallons it is better "bang for the buck" at $209 than the $309 B7 was... but then again, the B5 doesn't cost $309, it is $199 and as far as I'm concerned $10 is a wash on cost.
As for rebuilds... at the $200-210 price point we're talking about, I think I'll just buy a new one.
There's just something about taking a shiny new engine out of the box, bolting it into my truck, christening it with a little splash of beer, and relaxing with a brew or 5 while it idles merrily away on the starter box. (ok, ok, I left out the part about pulling off the carb and backplate and sealing them, which I do with EVERY engine no matter who makes it!) For you buggy drivers, the Werks has one advantage not mentioned here... a black permanant maker hides scratches on the head nicely!
12-22-2010, 03:28 PM
#67
And see, this is where you are wrong if you are referring to me specifically. You should be able to note from the tone of my posts that I'm not the one getting "all defensive" to use your words or even the one bashing as you called it. I'm simply running some numbers based on what one person indicated was his normal maintenance requirement that is all. If anything I think that your post and a couple of the others are a little bit more "argumentative" or accusatory sounding than mine. You will note that I'm not even referring to a specific brand in my posts, just brand B and that is because I don't want this to turn into a one company versus another battle.
matrix, I can see what you are saying about people might not take the full 2 gallons to break in an engine but what I'm trying to compare is life of engines running in their optimum condition, so at true race performance shall we say. To do otherwise I do not think would be really fair because the performance of a full broken in engine I think we will all agree will exceed that of an engine that is not, so it's like comparing apples to oranges then.
nitroexpress, I'm not stretching the truth because of any heat that I'm feeling lol but that was funny. The bearing change for brand B that I used was again based on what one poster mentioned his routing for maintaining his engine was, that is it. As far as a user of our engines not needing to change bearings when replacing P/S set on our motors, that is indeed what I have seen and frankly what happens 90% of the time with team guys.
In any case though this is a friendly debate again, so lets try to keep this nice and not get all defensive. At the end of the day all of the engines that fit in this price range will work just fine for the vast majority of people be it whatever brand they choose.
matrix, I can see what you are saying about people might not take the full 2 gallons to break in an engine but what I'm trying to compare is life of engines running in their optimum condition, so at true race performance shall we say. To do otherwise I do not think would be really fair because the performance of a full broken in engine I think we will all agree will exceed that of an engine that is not, so it's like comparing apples to oranges then.
nitroexpress, I'm not stretching the truth because of any heat that I'm feeling lol but that was funny. The bearing change for brand B that I used was again based on what one poster mentioned his routing for maintaining his engine was, that is it. As far as a user of our engines not needing to change bearings when replacing P/S set on our motors, that is indeed what I have seen and frankly what happens 90% of the time with team guys.
In any case though this is a friendly debate again, so lets try to keep this nice and not get all defensive. At the end of the day all of the engines that fit in this price range will work just fine for the vast majority of people be it whatever brand they choose.
12-22-2010, 04:14 PM
#68
I run both a Werks B5 (Buggy) and an Alpha Plus S852 (Truggy) and have tried each color Alpha...as well as a GO B21 engine. They are all different.
The Werks B5 and the Alpha Plus S852 have VERY VERY similar power deliveries IMHO. I honestly can't put one above the other running them back to back with the same gearing. I think the Alpha has a bit more bottom end, but the B5 seems to rev higher. So it's a wash in my book.
Both are GREAT engines, and you can argue between the 2 until you are blue in the face. I bought the B5 used with 2.5 gallons on it...and it still pulls VERY VERY hard. My Alpha plus I bought brand new and it now has 7 gallons on it with NO MAINTENANCE. No bearings...No rod...No pinch....no P/S/R...nothing. I have replaced the exhaust gasket twice.
I don't care what people say about the Taiwanese engines being subpar and crap materials. Even if they are....so what? If I can get an engine to run 7 gallons without so much as inspecting it from time to time....and I paid $200 for it. Where did I lose out? It is still every bit as powerful as when it was a 1 gallon engine. I even let a buddy borrow it a few weeks ago....when he was done he started asking questions about it and was FLOORED when I told him it had 7 gallons on it. It was every bit as powerful as his 3 gallon or so Ninja and had a LOT more bottom end for his Truggy to be able to clear some of the large jumps at our local track.
He bought an Orange Head Alpha a week later....
Bottom line....the Werks B5/B6 is a GREAT engine....but so is the Alpha Plus. I mean if you can take ANY $200 engine and be competitive with it for more than 5 gallons.....you have won. No matter how you slice it.
So to anyone looking for an engine....I would highly suggest you go to your local track and ask guys to give theirs a test run. They are ALL good engines these days. It's more a matter of which engine fits YOUR driving style.
Me personally....I like an explosive bottom end and a smooth mid and top. I don't care if it revs to 45K RPMS or 20K RPMS....as long as I can drive it the way that suits me best.
OK...my rant is over
The Werks B5 and the Alpha Plus S852 have VERY VERY similar power deliveries IMHO. I honestly can't put one above the other running them back to back with the same gearing. I think the Alpha has a bit more bottom end, but the B5 seems to rev higher. So it's a wash in my book.
Both are GREAT engines, and you can argue between the 2 until you are blue in the face. I bought the B5 used with 2.5 gallons on it...and it still pulls VERY VERY hard. My Alpha plus I bought brand new and it now has 7 gallons on it with NO MAINTENANCE. No bearings...No rod...No pinch....no P/S/R...nothing. I have replaced the exhaust gasket twice.
I don't care what people say about the Taiwanese engines being subpar and crap materials. Even if they are....so what? If I can get an engine to run 7 gallons without so much as inspecting it from time to time....and I paid $200 for it. Where did I lose out? It is still every bit as powerful as when it was a 1 gallon engine. I even let a buddy borrow it a few weeks ago....when he was done he started asking questions about it and was FLOORED when I told him it had 7 gallons on it. It was every bit as powerful as his 3 gallon or so Ninja and had a LOT more bottom end for his Truggy to be able to clear some of the large jumps at our local track.
He bought an Orange Head Alpha a week later....
Bottom line....the Werks B5/B6 is a GREAT engine....but so is the Alpha Plus. I mean if you can take ANY $200 engine and be competitive with it for more than 5 gallons.....you have won. No matter how you slice it.
So to anyone looking for an engine....I would highly suggest you go to your local track and ask guys to give theirs a test run. They are ALL good engines these days. It's more a matter of which engine fits YOUR driving style.
Me personally....I like an explosive bottom end and a smooth mid and top. I don't care if it revs to 45K RPMS or 20K RPMS....as long as I can drive it the way that suits me best.
OK...my rant is over
Now its a thread. Don't take anything that I'm saying as attacking you, were all good from that perspective. But it you look at our thread you will also see people saying that they have 8 gallons on their B5 and it's still going strong so I would take all of that as a grain of salt. The reality of the matter is that most people will be able to get 6 to maybe 9 gallons out of most brands of engines P/S if they know what they are doing and know how to tune. Anything over this is in my opinion for the most part an anomaly or just good luck lol! I also understand the example that you are using on re-build costs but lets look at it from another stand point assuming an equal 8 gallon life out of both companies p/s and a rebuild:
Werks
Break in 1/2 gallon of gas at $28 a gallon = $14
P/S Set = $110
Break in of 2nd P/S using 1/2 gal = $14
Bearings, no need to replace
Rod ' $40
Total Costs = $178
The Brand that you referenced
Break in 2 gallon of gas at $28 a gallon= $56
P/S/R Set= $85
Front Bearing= $7.99
Rear Bearing= $15.99
Break in of 2nd P/S using 2 gallons of gas= $56
Total Cost = $220.98
So to run 2x P/S/R though brand B actually ends up costing 25% more than with ours!
I will also add that if we again assume an 8 gallon life out of both brands p/s with ours you are actually getting 7 1/2 gallons of use at optimal performance. The other brand takes 2 gallons to break in so you are only getting 6 gallons of use at optimal performance. Consider that over the life of 2 p/s sets and you are getting an additional 3 gallons of racing use out of our engine which is another 1/2 of brand B's p/s set so in essence it's like comparing 2 rebuilds of our engine to 2 1/2 rebuilds of the other brands (so 25% more life) and then the numbers look like this:
Werks
Total costs same as above, $178
Other Brand
Total costs above $220.98 + 25% = $276.22
This is the actual costs that you are looking at to get 15 gallons or racing use out of both brands of engines! And that cost is actually 55% more with brand B than what you spend on ours using the last example which represents the true racing use that you get out of the engines. This is just math and nothing that I can twist, alter, lie about or anything else, it's just the hard numbers!
So where is the savings at???? It's actually a little surprising when you actually look at the numbers isn't it!
Werks
Break in 1/2 gallon of gas at $28 a gallon = $14
P/S Set = $110
Break in of 2nd P/S using 1/2 gal = $14
Bearings, no need to replace
Rod ' $40
Total Costs = $178
The Brand that you referenced
Break in 2 gallon of gas at $28 a gallon= $56
P/S/R Set= $85
Front Bearing= $7.99
Rear Bearing= $15.99
Break in of 2nd P/S using 2 gallons of gas= $56
Total Cost = $220.98
So to run 2x P/S/R though brand B actually ends up costing 25% more than with ours!
I will also add that if we again assume an 8 gallon life out of both brands p/s with ours you are actually getting 7 1/2 gallons of use at optimal performance. The other brand takes 2 gallons to break in so you are only getting 6 gallons of use at optimal performance. Consider that over the life of 2 p/s sets and you are getting an additional 3 gallons of racing use out of our engine which is another 1/2 of brand B's p/s set so in essence it's like comparing 2 rebuilds of our engine to 2 1/2 rebuilds of the other brands (so 25% more life) and then the numbers look like this:
Werks
Total costs same as above, $178
Other Brand
Total costs above $220.98 + 25% = $276.22
This is the actual costs that you are looking at to get 15 gallons or racing use out of both brands of engines! And that cost is actually 55% more with brand B than what you spend on ours using the last example which represents the true racing use that you get out of the engines. This is just math and nothing that I can twist, alter, lie about or anything else, it's just the hard numbers!
So where is the savings at???? It's actually a little surprising when you actually look at the numbers isn't it!
But thats the point, if your numbers were correct, the question to rebuild a engine vs buying new is a NO BRAINER. Why rebuild? For an extra <$50 get a whole new werks engine. What's worst is the numbers for the "Other engine" (LOL, i was laughing hard at that.) your estimated cost to rebuild is more then new engine.
Spend $220 on rebuild, or $200 on a new one? I'm wondering what im going to do? Again, I know you are not saying your stating facts. But the fact is you did post this. So I have to pull that chain when i see it. Btw, i'm really looking hard at Werks b5 and b6. But i want to by three before xmas. I cant find a deal.
LOLAnd see, this is where you are wrong if you are referring to me specifically. You should be able to note from the tone of my posts that I'm not the one getting "all defensive" to use your words or even the one bashing as you called it. I'm simply running some numbers based on what one person indicated was his normal maintenance requirement that is all. If anything I think that your post and a couple of the others are a little bit more "argumentative" or accusatory sounding than mine. You will note that I'm not even referring to a specific brand in my posts, just brand B and that is because I don't want this to turn into a one company versus another battle.
In any case though this is a friendly debate again, so lets try to keep this nice and not get all defensive.
In any case though this is a friendly debate again, so lets try to keep this nice and not get all defensive.
Since i was the OP, i have to say. I'm really leaning towards Go. If I saw more Youtube videos of Go's performance, it would be a Go all the way. But there are so many vid's on Werks engines and seem they have been doing a good job for a longer time. Again, i'm looking to buy three mills, and im trying to do my homework. For me, not in the hobby everyday, its hard to say "go look through the engine threads for answers. I need to get the heavy hitters. When i posted my original post, i never knew anything about Werks. No I'm nothing close to a track junky, I want to be. But im not. So thanks guys for all the suggestions.
Again, i remember that there wasn't so many good options in that past. It's great. So if I can find a great deal on Werks engines and pipes, I might have to "GO" another way.
Nick
12-22-2010, 04:22 PM
#69
Since i was the OP, i have to say. I'm really leaning towards Go. If I saw more Youtube videos of Go's performance, it would be a Go all the way. But there are so many vid's on Werks engines and seem they have been doing a good job for a longer time. Again, i'm looking to buy three mills, and im trying to do my homework. For me, not in the hobby everyday, its hard to say "go look through the engine threads for answers. I need to get the heavy hitters. When i posted my original post, i never knew anything about Werks. No I'm nothing close to a track junky, I want to be. But im not. So thanks guys for all the suggestions.
Again, i remember that there wasn't so many good options in that past. It's great. So if I can find a great deal on Werks engines and pipes, I might have to "GO" another way.
Nick
...
12-22-2010, 05:24 PM
#71
Nickmind, regarding the numbers it really depends on how you look at things. Again I'm listing the costs for what one person was quoting as the items that they felt would need to be replaced as part of normal maintenance for that brand, that is it. The actual costs listed for those items are realistic (or I should say true based on listed prices that I found on-line) the question is if you want to factor in your break in fuel for p/s set #1 & #2 and/or if you want to factor that in to actual use/cost of the engine over the life of 2x p/s sets. If not and we remove fuel costs it changes the numbers completely and in which case it will cost aprox. $41 more to run our engine over the life of 2x p/s.
Realistically though it truly is a mute point because most people are not re-building their engines nowadays. They are simply pinching the sleeve, keeping it as a practice motor and picking up a new one for big races. It does not matter which brand you are talking about but at these $200'ish price points re-building is going to save you only $50-$80 and for most people it is not worth the hassle to do it. They buy a new engine and look at it more like for only $50-$80 they got a spare cooling head, head button, crank, case, carburetor, bearings, head shims, pinch bolt etc. etc. etc. This is part of the reason that I was pointing out/responding to the other persons comment about the re-build costs being less with brand B because honestly it should not even be a factor in making a purchasing decision because 99% of the people are not even going to do it because frankly it does no longer make a lot of sense.
As other said any of the engines that are listed here will serve your purposes well. Threads like this pop up every month and they always turn into a mess lol but you should buy the brand that you feel most comfortable with because at the end of the day it is your money and you need to be happy with your choice. If your gut is telling you Go or some other brand then follow it because all of this bickering aside ultimately the only thing that is important to me and i think everyone else is that you are happy with this hobby and that you stay involved in it.
Realistically though it truly is a mute point because most people are not re-building their engines nowadays. They are simply pinching the sleeve, keeping it as a practice motor and picking up a new one for big races. It does not matter which brand you are talking about but at these $200'ish price points re-building is going to save you only $50-$80 and for most people it is not worth the hassle to do it. They buy a new engine and look at it more like for only $50-$80 they got a spare cooling head, head button, crank, case, carburetor, bearings, head shims, pinch bolt etc. etc. etc. This is part of the reason that I was pointing out/responding to the other persons comment about the re-build costs being less with brand B because honestly it should not even be a factor in making a purchasing decision because 99% of the people are not even going to do it because frankly it does no longer make a lot of sense.
As other said any of the engines that are listed here will serve your purposes well. Threads like this pop up every month and they always turn into a mess lol but you should buy the brand that you feel most comfortable with because at the end of the day it is your money and you need to be happy with your choice. If your gut is telling you Go or some other brand then follow it because all of this bickering aside ultimately the only thing that is important to me and i think everyone else is that you are happy with this hobby and that you stay involved in it.
12-22-2010, 05:46 PM
#72
Man, were stooping to that level. First I don't sell direct to consumers. So if someone wanted to buy 20 engines from me it would not make a difference, there would still be no "hook up" as I 'm not on here PM'ing people trying to sell direct and cutting out my dealers. How'd you get the motor you're running?
First I don't sell direct to consumers. So if someone wanted to buy 20 engines from me it would not make a difference, there would still be no "hook up" as I 'm not on here PM'ing people trying to sell direct and cutting out my dealers. How'd you get the motor you're running?
12-22-2010, 05:54 PM
#73
As other said any of the engines that are listed here will serve your purposes well. Threads like this pop up every month and they always turn into a mess lol but you should buy the brand that you feel most comfortable with because at the end of the day it is your money and you need to be happy with your choice. If your gut is telling you Go or some other brand then follow it because all of this bickering aside ultimately the only thing that is important to me and i think everyone else is that you are happy with this hobby and that you stay involved in it.
And to think a new month........... is just around the corner.......
Moto
12-22-2010, 06:19 PM
#75
Man, were stooping to that level. First I don't sell direct to consumers. So if someone wanted to buy 20 engines from me it would not make a difference, there would still be no "hook up" as I 'm not on here PM'ing people trying to sell direct and cutting out my dealers. How'd you get the motor you're running?
First I don't sell direct to consumers. So if someone wanted to buy 20 engines from me it would not make a difference, there would still be no "hook up" as I 'm not on here PM'ing people trying to sell direct and cutting out my dealers. How'd you get the motor you're running? As for my PR. I baught it right from ascendancy.. the place who sells them?? And that's not true what you said anyway. You were going to drop ship me a motor through one of your team guys. But I guess you forgot?? Now let's start stooping.. ..your a goof ball man. I haven't said one dang thing bad about you or your product...all you do in every post is talk about others product then say. " its just a friendly convo" to keep it smoothed out.