63LikesThe New Werks B5 .21 Racing Engine
02-26-2010 | 11:42 AM
#1846
Ron. Wanted to let you know how awesome your driver Mike Battaile is. He help me tremendously at Motorama. Everything from tuning to pitting. Great guy with a ton of knowledge. He had my motors hauling. They were reliable and carried me to a fourth place open buggy finish. Thanks for making great motors and Fielding a helpful team...
Derrick
Derrick
Regards,
Ron
02-26-2010 | 07:51 PM
#1847
Ron,
I got done with nitro challenge and had mixed results... a lot of flames during qualifying, which were a bad plug and a leaky exhaust gasket... i was in the mud for the h main, and got a 4th.... they bumped us into the g main immediately. even with 3 lbs of mud on my car i could make jumps
the flame thing worried me... i've never flamed with this mill. i'll be getting another soon, just to have a fresh one
dishsoap got a B5 for his kid and it ran great... there were a LOT of B5'ers out there. I met Kortz and he's a great guy. Very fast. He said something about a #6 werks plug(i think)... can i get em at a main or from werks? Not that the odonnel sucks, but i'll try one of your plugs. fuel might be next....
I got done with nitro challenge and had mixed results... a lot of flames during qualifying, which were a bad plug and a leaky exhaust gasket... i was in the mud for the h main, and got a 4th.... they bumped us into the g main immediately. even with 3 lbs of mud on my car i could make jumps
the flame thing worried me... i've never flamed with this mill. i'll be getting another soon, just to have a fresh one
dishsoap got a B5 for his kid and it ran great... there were a LOT of B5'ers out there. I met Kortz and he's a great guy. Very fast. He said something about a #6 werks plug(i think)... can i get em at a main or from werks? Not that the odonnel sucks, but i'll try one of your plugs. fuel might be next....
02-26-2010 | 10:34 PM
#1848
Hey BigNasty, when your dealing with mud traditional tuning gets thrown out of the window! There are soooo many variables then including which frankly makes setting the iniial tune for the heat a crap shoot. I tend to richen the engine a bit asuming that picking up all of the extra weight (whichin you case you mentioned was 3 pounds!!!) is going to increase the load on the engine making it run hotter. But then you have to worry about the filter getting wet which makes the engine run rich . So don't richen the engine and you can be way too lean, richen the engine and you can start out good but if the filter gets wet then your way, way too rich....it's realy the luck of the draw in these type of situations. What I will say is don't be too concerned about what happened in those type of situations. Clean the engine up, change the clutch bearings as there is a good chance that they are bound up and try running it in normal, dry conditions and see what happens. Regarding the plugs Kortz runs either our TLP5BT or TLP6B5 (#5 or #6 buggy turbo plug) both of which should he available from A-main. Give them a shot I think that you are going to find them much more durable than OS or OD plugs!
Regards,
Ron
Regards,
Ron
02-26-2010 | 10:57 PM
#1849
tune was good in the mud... all my problems were on friday. 70 deg and gorgeous. I did richen the low end and raise the idle a bit on sun, but yea that was a total shot in the dark. i'm putting new fuel line, exhaust gaskets, and everything in before i race sun
02-27-2010 | 12:41 AM
#1850
Tech Regular
iTrader: (13)
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 351
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
b5
Let me say first that I have pretty much run all of the top engines and am an os fanatic but I witnessed dpowers b5 run and it looked amazing with the 2057 pipe. Great job Ron keep up the good work! Anyone looking for a great race engine for a great price don't overlook the b5.
02-27-2010 | 10:07 AM
#1852
Hi all! Just starting to break in my 3rd B5 today! Started up on the break in stand and it just sat there idiling perfectly! GOTTA LOVE IT. I have been running the #5 plugs awhile, and mine have lasted A LOT longer than most P3's. Can't beat Werks durability!
Brad
PS: Ron, you have an email waiting when you get some free time.
Brad
PS: Ron, you have an email waiting when you get some free time.
02-27-2010 | 10:12 AM
#1853
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 786
I'm going to purchase one of your clutches today from my B5 in a Z01B. I'm by no means a fast driver, but looking to move up in the sportsman class. I'm tired of aluminum clutch shoes wearing out so fast and the pain associated removing clutch springs.
I mostly run on slightly loamy clay tracks that groove up on big race days. I'm looking for long wear, minimal maintenance, and smooth engagement to tame the B5 (and my heavy throttle finger!). Which version of your clutch do you recommend?
I mostly run on slightly loamy clay tracks that groove up on big race days. I'm looking for long wear, minimal maintenance, and smooth engagement to tame the B5 (and my heavy throttle finger!). Which version of your clutch do you recommend?
02-27-2010 | 11:05 AM
#1854
Hey Brad our plugs are good arn't they! Have nit checked my mail today but If you sent it last week please re-send because I did not see anything.
Mthird, go with our wrx6501 clutch set which has the carbon clutch shoes. This will have the best combination of wear and grip for your application. A set of shoes on a properly adjusted clutch will last 6+ gallons.
Mthird, go with our wrx6501 clutch set which has the carbon clutch shoes. This will have the best combination of wear and grip for your application. A set of shoes on a properly adjusted clutch will last 6+ gallons.
02-27-2010 | 02:34 PM
#1856
Hey Brad our plugs are good arn't they! Have nit checked my mail today but If you sent it last week please re-send because I did not see anything.
Mthird, go with our wrx6501 clutch set which has the carbon clutch shoes. This will have the best combination of wear and grip for your application. A set of shoes on a properly adjusted clutch will last 6+ gallons.
Mthird, go with our wrx6501 clutch set which has the carbon clutch shoes. This will have the best combination of wear and grip for your application. A set of shoes on a properly adjusted clutch will last 6+ gallons.
02-27-2010 | 04:27 PM
#1857
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 786
Hey Brad our plugs are good arn't they! Have nit checked my mail today but If you sent it last week please re-send because I did not see anything.
Mthird, go with our wrx6501 clutch set which has the carbon clutch shoes. This will have the best combination of wear and grip for your application. A set of shoes on a properly adjusted clutch will last 6+ gallons.
Mthird, go with our wrx6501 clutch set which has the carbon clutch shoes. This will have the best combination of wear and grip for your application. A set of shoes on a properly adjusted clutch will last 6+ gallons.
02-28-2010 | 01:47 AM
#1859
Tech Regular
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 357
I'm going to purchase one of your clutches today from my B5 in a Z01B. I'm by no means a fast driver, but looking to move up in the sportsman class. I'm tired of aluminum clutch shoes wearing out so fast and the pain associated removing clutch springs.
I mostly run on slightly loamy clay tracks that groove up on big race days. I'm looking for long wear, minimal maintenance, and smooth engagement to tame the B5 (and my heavy throttle finger!). Which version of your clutch do you recommend?
I mostly run on slightly loamy clay tracks that groove up on big race days. I'm looking for long wear, minimal maintenance, and smooth engagement to tame the B5 (and my heavy throttle finger!). Which version of your clutch do you recommend?
Last edited by HyperB5; 02-28-2010 at 02:01 AM.
02-28-2010 | 07:24 AM
#1860
Hello rc_cal,
Thanks for back ordering one of the B5's! Regarding your questions:
1) Normal operating temperature would be between 210 to around 250'ish degree's. I'm quoting a 40+ degree operating window because there are again quite a range of variable that can affect this i.e. weather, plug choice, pipe, track size and most definitely fuel choice. Having said that temp is secondary! Always tune your engine to get the performance that you are looking for while making sure that you are still blowing some smoke. No smoke = you are going to have a problem. Once you get your engine set with the performance that you like, take the temp and then you can use that as a reference point down the road to quickly set your motor in the range that you lik.
2) The infamous break in question lol! We're a racing company and make engines for racers, what I have found is that talk to 4 different racers and you will get 4 different opinions on how to do it lol! You wanted a detailed answer though so let the book writing begin lol!
The way that I normal do it is to set the HS needle to flush with the end of the housing and then with the air filter off, fire it up and leave it on the box. Blip the throttle a couple of times and then let it come back down to idle. Then I start to screw in the idle stop screw until I see around a 2-2.5mm air gap (opening on the slide). When you are doing this your idle speed will start to increase so you are basically going to have to start richening your low speed needle a couple of hours (until you get a smooth, steady idle) then do a couple of hours on the idle stop screw and back and forth until you see the 2-2.5mm+ air gap that I mentioned. As this is a two stroke engine, performance is always dictated by air/fuel ratio and as we are now talking about the low speed needle (remember we set the HS needle flush with the end of the housing and there is no need to touch this again for a while) if you have too much fuel (rich setting) you will have a low idle, if you have too little fuel (lean setting) you will have a high idle). It basically is a no brainer if you are too rich or lean because your engine will tell you!
Once you get a steady idle going with the large air gap that I mentioned (large air gap means a lot of air flow, to get a steady idle means that to compensate you will have to dump a lot of fuel through the engine= guaranteed rich condition and you can not damage your engine right off the bat by being too lean) I idle it through the first tank on the box. This is done basically to pump a lot of oil through the engine to flush out any metal particles in the engine and remove the minute bit of metal particles that are always released initially during break in.
Now with the radio gear on, engine off and the slide closed look down the throat of the carb and slowly start to pull the trigger. Take note of the how much throttle you are giving at the point that the low speed needle (which is connected to the slide) comes out of the spray bar (the hollow tube) on the opposite side of the carb. We will use this as a referance for tuning later on but basically what is happening is that during the range of throttle movement that the low speed needle is embedded in the spray bar, the low speed needle will affect fuel delivery (for the purist we both know that this is a simplified explanation as the fuel first travels through the HS needle circuit before going to the LS but since we already set the HS to a rich setting and will not be touching this for a while it's pretty much a mute point). At the point that it is out of the spray bar the fuel delivery (or tune) is affected solely by the high speed needle.
Then I re-install the air filter, fire up the engine and toss it on the ground. Start slowly doing figure eights at say 3 to 4 mph until you run through the tank. Then for the next tank i fire the engine up again and back the idle screw out a couple of hours. You will immediately hear the idle speed start to reduce, to compensate for this I then lean the low speed needle a couple of hours until I again hear a smooth steady idle. Once I have this I then start doing figure eights again but now a little bit fasted until the tank is empty. Next tank fire up the engine, back idle screw out a couple of hours, lean LS needle a couple of hours, do figure eights a couple of mph faster.
Basically what I'm doing with this system is slowly reducing the amount of lubricant being pumped through the engine while at the same time slowly increasing the amount of load that is being put on the engine. This I keep on repeating until I get to approximately the point that I'm pulling the trigger far enough that I know the low speed needle is being pulled out of the spray bar (remember we checked this initially while we had the air filter off) at which point your air gap (the amount the slide is help open by the idle stop screw) will have been reduced to aprox. 1-1.5mm.
Once we get to this point we now need to be concerned about the HS needle. What I then do is re-fuel and fire the vehicle up, putt it around for a couple of minutes to heat saturate the case and the chassis and then do a quick high speed run around the track (do not hold it maxed out for a long time on the straight, this is bad). I pull it back in, temp the engine and adjust the HS needle so that I see right around 200 degrees. Then let the engine drop back down to idle and see how the idle performance looks. If the idle is now fast (it has now increased) this means that you need to richen your low speed needle (for the amount of air flowing into the engine, there is too little fuel flowing into it = lean condition) don't touch the idle screw just the LS needle. If the idle is low this means that you now need to lean your low speed needle (for the amount of air flowing into the engine there is too much fuel flowing into it = rich condition) again don't touch the idle screw.
Then I toss the car on the track for another 6-8 tanks with the engine running around 200 degrees as explained above running close to race speed but rolling off the throttle mid way down the straight. Once I'm done with the 6-8 tanks doing this we would have run around 12 to 15 tanks total through the engine in all of the steps above. I now consider the engine pretty much broken in and I'll get close to race tune on the HS setting the engine around 220 degrees. Again check to see what happens to the idle speed and adjust your low speed needle to compensate if it is high or low. Run a further 6 or so tanks through the engine driving it as you normally would and you are good to go to full race tune which will be in the 220 to say mid 240'ish range and I would consider the engine broken in and ready to be pounded on.
A long explanation but using this system helps avoid one of the most common mistakes faced by newer tuners which is setting their low speed needle too lean because they have too little air gap (the carb is hardly open help open by the idle stop screw so to compensate they set the LS needle super lean easily causing damage to the engine).
I also like to use this system because I often end up tuning and/or breaking in a lot of different types of engine with people. Using this system i never even worry about knowing what the factory needle settings are or anything along those lines. I just set the HS and LS flush with the end of the housing, set the air gap so that the slide is open 1-1.5mm and fire the engine up. How it idles immediately tells me if the LS needle is too lean or rich so I set this, then check the temp after a high speed run, adjust the HS needle to be in the 220'ish range, check idle speed and set LS so that it is smooth and steady and the engine is ready to go. Takes about 4-5 minutes total on an engine that could be completely out of whack and I've never even seen or ran before lol!
3) Ours, Sirio and possibly some of the Orion ones I would think.
4) Again we did all of our testing with our own pipes i.e. the 2013 and 3014 (3 chamber pipe) but I would start out with the JP3 initially and then test the others. The JP 4 and I'm assuming the 3023 are 3 chamber pipes so these will probably be more restrictive slightly reducing the power band but increasing the fuel economy so depending on what organization you run under (i.e. if use of these pipes is required) and if you feel the engine is over powered for you these can also be a worth while item to test.
Hope this helps!
Regards,
Ron Hopkins
Werks Racing
Thanks for back ordering one of the B5's! Regarding your questions:
1) Normal operating temperature would be between 210 to around 250'ish degree's. I'm quoting a 40+ degree operating window because there are again quite a range of variable that can affect this i.e. weather, plug choice, pipe, track size and most definitely fuel choice. Having said that temp is secondary! Always tune your engine to get the performance that you are looking for while making sure that you are still blowing some smoke. No smoke = you are going to have a problem. Once you get your engine set with the performance that you like, take the temp and then you can use that as a reference point down the road to quickly set your motor in the range that you lik.
2) The infamous break in question lol! We're a racing company and make engines for racers, what I have found is that talk to 4 different racers and you will get 4 different opinions on how to do it lol! You wanted a detailed answer though so let the book writing begin lol!
The way that I normal do it is to set the HS needle to flush with the end of the housing and then with the air filter off, fire it up and leave it on the box. Blip the throttle a couple of times and then let it come back down to idle. Then I start to screw in the idle stop screw until I see around a 2-2.5mm air gap (opening on the slide). When you are doing this your idle speed will start to increase so you are basically going to have to start richening your low speed needle a couple of hours (until you get a smooth, steady idle) then do a couple of hours on the idle stop screw and back and forth until you see the 2-2.5mm+ air gap that I mentioned. As this is a two stroke engine, performance is always dictated by air/fuel ratio and as we are now talking about the low speed needle (remember we set the HS needle flush with the end of the housing and there is no need to touch this again for a while) if you have too much fuel (rich setting) you will have a low idle, if you have too little fuel (lean setting) you will have a high idle). It basically is a no brainer if you are too rich or lean because your engine will tell you!
Once you get a steady idle going with the large air gap that I mentioned (large air gap means a lot of air flow, to get a steady idle means that to compensate you will have to dump a lot of fuel through the engine= guaranteed rich condition and you can not damage your engine right off the bat by being too lean) I idle it through the first tank on the box. This is done basically to pump a lot of oil through the engine to flush out any metal particles in the engine and remove the minute bit of metal particles that are always released initially during break in.
Now with the radio gear on, engine off and the slide closed look down the throat of the carb and slowly start to pull the trigger. Take note of the how much throttle you are giving at the point that the low speed needle (which is connected to the slide) comes out of the spray bar (the hollow tube) on the opposite side of the carb. We will use this as a referance for tuning later on but basically what is happening is that during the range of throttle movement that the low speed needle is embedded in the spray bar, the low speed needle will affect fuel delivery (for the purist we both know that this is a simplified explanation as the fuel first travels through the HS needle circuit before going to the LS but since we already set the HS to a rich setting and will not be touching this for a while it's pretty much a mute point). At the point that it is out of the spray bar the fuel delivery (or tune) is affected solely by the high speed needle.
Then I re-install the air filter, fire up the engine and toss it on the ground. Start slowly doing figure eights at say 3 to 4 mph until you run through the tank. Then for the next tank i fire the engine up again and back the idle screw out a couple of hours. You will immediately hear the idle speed start to reduce, to compensate for this I then lean the low speed needle a couple of hours until I again hear a smooth steady idle. Once I have this I then start doing figure eights again but now a little bit fasted until the tank is empty. Next tank fire up the engine, back idle screw out a couple of hours, lean LS needle a couple of hours, do figure eights a couple of mph faster.
Basically what I'm doing with this system is slowly reducing the amount of lubricant being pumped through the engine while at the same time slowly increasing the amount of load that is being put on the engine. This I keep on repeating until I get to approximately the point that I'm pulling the trigger far enough that I know the low speed needle is being pulled out of the spray bar (remember we checked this initially while we had the air filter off) at which point your air gap (the amount the slide is help open by the idle stop screw) will have been reduced to aprox. 1-1.5mm.
Once we get to this point we now need to be concerned about the HS needle. What I then do is re-fuel and fire the vehicle up, putt it around for a couple of minutes to heat saturate the case and the chassis and then do a quick high speed run around the track (do not hold it maxed out for a long time on the straight, this is bad). I pull it back in, temp the engine and adjust the HS needle so that I see right around 200 degrees. Then let the engine drop back down to idle and see how the idle performance looks. If the idle is now fast (it has now increased) this means that you need to richen your low speed needle (for the amount of air flowing into the engine, there is too little fuel flowing into it = lean condition) don't touch the idle screw just the LS needle. If the idle is low this means that you now need to lean your low speed needle (for the amount of air flowing into the engine there is too much fuel flowing into it = rich condition) again don't touch the idle screw.
Then I toss the car on the track for another 6-8 tanks with the engine running around 200 degrees as explained above running close to race speed but rolling off the throttle mid way down the straight. Once I'm done with the 6-8 tanks doing this we would have run around 12 to 15 tanks total through the engine in all of the steps above. I now consider the engine pretty much broken in and I'll get close to race tune on the HS setting the engine around 220 degrees. Again check to see what happens to the idle speed and adjust your low speed needle to compensate if it is high or low. Run a further 6 or so tanks through the engine driving it as you normally would and you are good to go to full race tune which will be in the 220 to say mid 240'ish range and I would consider the engine broken in and ready to be pounded on.
A long explanation but using this system helps avoid one of the most common mistakes faced by newer tuners which is setting their low speed needle too lean because they have too little air gap (the carb is hardly open help open by the idle stop screw so to compensate they set the LS needle super lean easily causing damage to the engine).
I also like to use this system because I often end up tuning and/or breaking in a lot of different types of engine with people. Using this system i never even worry about knowing what the factory needle settings are or anything along those lines. I just set the HS and LS flush with the end of the housing, set the air gap so that the slide is open 1-1.5mm and fire the engine up. How it idles immediately tells me if the LS needle is too lean or rich so I set this, then check the temp after a high speed run, adjust the HS needle to be in the 220'ish range, check idle speed and set LS so that it is smooth and steady and the engine is ready to go. Takes about 4-5 minutes total on an engine that could be completely out of whack and I've never even seen or ran before lol!
3) Ours, Sirio and possibly some of the Orion ones I would think.
4) Again we did all of our testing with our own pipes i.e. the 2013 and 3014 (3 chamber pipe) but I would start out with the JP3 initially and then test the others. The JP 4 and I'm assuming the 3023 are 3 chamber pipes so these will probably be more restrictive slightly reducing the power band but increasing the fuel economy so depending on what organization you run under (i.e. if use of these pipes is required) and if you feel the engine is over powered for you these can also be a worth while item to test.
Hope this helps!
Regards,
Ron Hopkins
Werks Racing
Thanks.....871