1/8th On Road Losing Popularity?
09-11-2005, 10:20 PM
#631
I'm sure most of the racer are honest, for this, I have no doubt. The said truth is, there is the possibility for "a few" bad guy which might do this and push other honest guy out of this hobby.
We cannot expect every racer are perfect, there are some point in time which we are weak and ....
Anyway, for a club race, I think most important is the fun factor. Who want to tech spec a car/engine and find out the racer is treating ? (It was not fun at all, for all the racer)
We cannot expect every racer are perfect, there are some point in time which we are weak and ....
Anyway, for a club race, I think most important is the fun factor. Who want to tech spec a car/engine and find out the racer is treating ? (It was not fun at all, for all the racer)
09-12-2005, 06:52 AM
#633
The same points above can be made for electric stock...if someone really wants to cheat, they are going to find a way and very few people are capable of noticing it...
If someone is going to go through great lenghts to modifiy a crankshaft, in order to have an advantage in a SPEC class there is nothing you can do about it...THAT PERSON IS FU$KING LOSER AND A CHEATER and in our area no one forgets the guy who cheats...any and victory he may have is always lloked as a non-victory...
Also, it takes about 3-minutes to tech a nitro engine while still in the chassis...four screws to remove the heatsink to tech the number of ports, remove the side belt and 4 screws off the back plate to inspect the crankshaft.
Also, on offroad engine has a much larger head than the on-road engines, so its pretty easy to eyeball which guy is using a questionable engine and who is not.
If someone is going to go through great lenghts to modifiy a crankshaft, in order to have an advantage in a SPEC class there is nothing you can do about it...THAT PERSON IS FU$KING LOSER AND A CHEATER and in our area no one forgets the guy who cheats...any and victory he may have is always lloked as a non-victory...
Also, it takes about 3-minutes to tech a nitro engine while still in the chassis...four screws to remove the heatsink to tech the number of ports, remove the side belt and 4 screws off the back plate to inspect the crankshaft.
Also, on offroad engine has a much larger head than the on-road engines, so its pretty easy to eyeball which guy is using a questionable engine and who is not.
09-12-2005, 07:05 AM
#634
Originally Posted by Wolf
The stock engine rule sounds simple, the real problem is in the enforcement. From the out look, there is no way tell which engine is a true "stock" engine or not.
How much time is needed to check the crank, sleeve, piston, (conrod, crank case ...) for an experienced crew to make sure it is a real stock parts (for only one engine) ? Who is willing to rip out the engine from chassis, then dis-assemble the engine to enforce the rule ? Are you willing your engine to be dis-assemble by other guy who want to take as little time to do the job as possible (in a rush) ? And who is gonna to put together the engine together again ? I don't think it is a fun job.
Besides, don't forget the human aspect. Why you need to dis-assemble my engine and not his ? You don't trust me ? (WTF) I am a guy who look like I will cheat ? (Sh..) My engine neever runs as good as it before the tech inspection! They seems to got my engine damaged. Wow, that guy is really fast in the straight, there must be some "secret" inside. ......
How much time is needed to check the crank, sleeve, piston, (conrod, crank case ...) for an experienced crew to make sure it is a real stock parts (for only one engine) ? Who is willing to rip out the engine from chassis, then dis-assemble the engine to enforce the rule ? Are you willing your engine to be dis-assemble by other guy who want to take as little time to do the job as possible (in a rush) ? And who is gonna to put together the engine together again ? I don't think it is a fun job.
Besides, don't forget the human aspect. Why you need to dis-assemble my engine and not his ? You don't trust me ? (WTF) I am a guy who look like I will cheat ? (Sh..) My engine neever runs as good as it before the tech inspection! They seems to got my engine damaged. Wow, that guy is really fast in the straight, there must be some "secret" inside. ......
You bring up good points about why me and not him...basically it comes down to race director using his discretion if he feels that someone may have an unfair advantage...
And your right, its not a fun job, but someone has to do it...isn't it better knowing that when you go to a race that someone is looking out to make sure the guidlines are being followed...without guidlines, racers will do anything to have an unfair advantage..
Example: at the electric sedan regional, some guys were all pissed that we enforced a weight rule...the new cars in general are very underweight, and to make matters worse guys go one step further and replace stock equiptment with light weight products...one guy was all pissed as he had to add almost 90grams in lead weight to his car...(reason: he was pissed because he wasted ton of $$$ on light weight stuff to have an unfair advantage at his local track where no one enforces a weight limit)...needless to say everyone in our region appreciates the fact that we try to follow the rules are closely as possible.
09-12-2005, 07:06 AM
#635
Originally Posted by Wolf
I'm sure most of the racer are honest, for this, I have no doubt. The said truth is, there is the possibility for "a few" bad guy which might do this and push other honest guy out of this hobby.
We cannot expect every racer are perfect, there are some point in time which we are weak and ....
Anyway, for a club race, I think most important is the fun factor. Who want to tech spec a car/engine and find out the racer is treating ? (It was not fun at all, for all the racer)
We cannot expect every racer are perfect, there are some point in time which we are weak and ....
Anyway, for a club race, I think most important is the fun factor. Who want to tech spec a car/engine and find out the racer is treating ? (It was not fun at all, for all the racer)
09-12-2005, 07:15 AM
#636
Originally Posted by dino.tw
Sorry! Limiting engine is not a good idea in my opinion.
Maybe a guy already spend $700 to buy a mod engine then you ask him to spend $300 to buy another engine? It's cruel! And it is very trouble to check all engines. You will never real know what they can do.
For example,Ed can modify engine. If he change the piston material to 32% Si ,no one will know. Then his engine will be faster then stock one. Then people start to PM Ed "Hello,how much is it?"
(just for example 
)
I would like to suggest that : One club race one set of tyres.
For example,$50 entry fee for a club race and give you one set of approved tyres. It may be 40 degree and you have to run it from the start to the final. The tyres must be durable and limited traction. All racers have the same traction. Then people will find more power = more trouble and useless. It is more easy to achieve in my opinion.
Maybe a guy already spend $700 to buy a mod engine then you ask him to spend $300 to buy another engine? It's cruel! And it is very trouble to check all engines. You will never real know what they can do.
For example,Ed can modify engine. If he change the piston material to 32% Si ,no one will know. Then his engine will be faster then stock one. Then people start to PM Ed "Hello,how much is it?"
(just for example )I would like to suggest that : One club race one set of tyres.
For example,$50 entry fee for a club race and give you one set of approved tyres. It may be 40 degree and you have to run it from the start to the final. The tyres must be durable and limited traction. All racers have the same traction. Then people will find more power = more trouble and useless. It is more easy to achieve in my opinion.
The theory is (i) less powerful engines will have less wear and tear on the chassis / parts / tires, (ii) easier to tune (iii) less costly to rerebuild / replace the parts / engines and (iv) will result in lower cost per racing season.
On a side note, it cost less for $$$ for a off-road engine than the replacements parts for an on-road engine...This makes no sense...
09-12-2005, 09:11 AM
#637
Tech Initiate
As a new person to the RC world, I will throw in my 2 cents. I agree that a SPEC class would be a great way to introduce new blood to the sport. Also, I think it would begin to force some of the companies to make more affordable kits. And before I get flamed for bring up the cost, look at it this way, yes Mercedes does have the S-class but they also have the C-class. Why? So that a person can move up as they lot in life changes. Heck, even Ferrari has an "introductory" car. And no, 1/10 scale is not an introductory class to 1/8.
I'm a golfer, so I hope the analogy does not lose anyone. When a person first starts out in golf, the get beginners clubs. And two important things happen:
1. They determine if they enjoy the sport and want to continue and
2. They have a set of clubs that are matched to their ability.
As you progress and go from a 25+ handicap to a scratch golfer, you buy better equipment to match your game. Yes, in the long run, I have paid more money replacing clubs, but I have increased my enjoyment as I can see my progression and the need for better equipment. As a new golfer, I am not going to be able to get backspin on a wedge, so there is not need to buy an expensive Titlest blade. Likewise, as a novice, I need to learn how to enter a corner, not try to figure out what the heck is going on with a one-way diff. That is for later when I am more seasoned.
Had I went out an purchased a set of custom fitted blades for my first clubs, I would have never continued to play because only the best player(not an ametuer) can play blades. Coming up in golf I have played/beaten a lot of frustrated golfers that played with clubs that were above their skill level. Give the best 1/8 scale driver a Power Racing XR/80 and he would lap most of up if we had the most expensive, advanced Mugen/Novi setup available. It's about skill. And a SPEC class would allow people to grow those skills.
When I walk into a hobby shop and they tell me to get into 1/8 on-road racing I need to spend at least $1500, that's an instant turn-off. Not because I can't afford it but because I am not going to make that kind of investment to determine whether I like something or not.
A SPEC class that eliminates the need to feel I have to purchase a $700 brand XXX engine, with a new $500 chassis to replace the one I got in the $600 kit, just to be competitive. It would allow a whole new set of racers to be competitive with people at their skill level. And eventually, those many SPEC racer will get hooked on 1/8 scale racing, and move up to the Pro class where they will see the benefits of ultra expensive engines/chassis/tires/one-ways/etc.
I'm a golfer, so I hope the analogy does not lose anyone. When a person first starts out in golf, the get beginners clubs. And two important things happen:
1. They determine if they enjoy the sport and want to continue and
2. They have a set of clubs that are matched to their ability.
As you progress and go from a 25+ handicap to a scratch golfer, you buy better equipment to match your game. Yes, in the long run, I have paid more money replacing clubs, but I have increased my enjoyment as I can see my progression and the need for better equipment. As a new golfer, I am not going to be able to get backspin on a wedge, so there is not need to buy an expensive Titlest blade. Likewise, as a novice, I need to learn how to enter a corner, not try to figure out what the heck is going on with a one-way diff. That is for later when I am more seasoned.
Had I went out an purchased a set of custom fitted blades for my first clubs, I would have never continued to play because only the best player(not an ametuer) can play blades. Coming up in golf I have played/beaten a lot of frustrated golfers that played with clubs that were above their skill level. Give the best 1/8 scale driver a Power Racing XR/80 and he would lap most of up if we had the most expensive, advanced Mugen/Novi setup available. It's about skill. And a SPEC class would allow people to grow those skills.
When I walk into a hobby shop and they tell me to get into 1/8 on-road racing I need to spend at least $1500, that's an instant turn-off. Not because I can't afford it but because I am not going to make that kind of investment to determine whether I like something or not.
A SPEC class that eliminates the need to feel I have to purchase a $700 brand XXX engine, with a new $500 chassis to replace the one I got in the $600 kit, just to be competitive. It would allow a whole new set of racers to be competitive with people at their skill level. And eventually, those many SPEC racer will get hooked on 1/8 scale racing, and move up to the Pro class where they will see the benefits of ultra expensive engines/chassis/tires/one-ways/etc.
09-12-2005, 09:34 AM
#639
I spoke with DANA yesterday about SPEC Class and he told me that they tried to use and spec engine before, but it didn't work. What really worked was the restrictor in the carburator, he knows that using a 4mm restrictor on the carb will give the same power to everybody and will not overheat the engine. they tried it long time ago in a class called Super Stock (not sure about the name)
I will support the idea of the restrictors, it make sense to me that if all the carbs are getting the same amount of fuel, no matter what motor and how much you did modify it, it will have the same amount of fuel inside, then the same power.
I will at least give it a try
I will support the idea of the restrictors, it make sense to me that if all the carbs are getting the same amount of fuel, no matter what motor and how much you did modify it, it will have the same amount of fuel inside, then the same power.
I will at least give it a try
09-12-2005, 10:07 AM
#640
Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
We are not asking the person who purchased a $700 engine to go out and buy another engine...that person can race in the open class...the SPEC engine concept was a way to introduce a less expensive form of racing for 1/8th, in an attempt to lower the overall cost of racing for racers who believe 1/8th has gotten expensive...
The theory is (i) less powerful engines will have less wear and tear on the chassis / parts / tires, (ii) easier to tune (iii) less costly to rerebuild / replace the parts / engines and (iv) will result in lower cost per racing season.
On a side note, it cost less for $$$ for a off-road engine than the replacements parts for an on-road engine...This makes no sense...
The theory is (i) less powerful engines will have less wear and tear on the chassis / parts / tires, (ii) easier to tune (iii) less costly to rerebuild / replace the parts / engines and (iv) will result in lower cost per racing season.
On a side note, it cost less for $$$ for a off-road engine than the replacements parts for an on-road engine...This makes no sense...
I would like to support your concept. Maybe you can try. And it needs a lot of racers' support,too.
I'm still thinking about the human aspect.
Why you like to play 1/8 on-road? It must have thousands of reasons but the most one is "Because it is the fastest!" I love to kick 1/8's ass with 1/10 touring. Once they find my small one is faster than their 1/8,they just give up and quit. So I don't do this for a long time. Do you think a slower 1/8 spec race will grow up? When they practice and find the touring car smoke them,do you think a lot people will still support the spec race?
Running 1/8 on-road with buggy engine I have ever tried. Sometimes it is slower than 1/10 on-road. Also if racer don't know gear it up,they may blow up his motor soon due to the max rpm is different. I still think we should limit from traction(tyre) or down force(body) just like F1.
09-12-2005, 10:08 AM
#641
Tech Rookie
Restrictors
Restrictors just mean you rev them higher and run them leaner to go fast and cost goes up.
09-12-2005, 10:26 AM
#643
Tech Elite
Thread Starter
Hey Dino why don't STS make a 7 port stock motor for $250 and we will all run your motor?
09-12-2005, 10:55 AM
#644
Originally Posted by dino.tw
Dear Carl,
I would like to support your concept. Maybe you can try. And it needs a lot of racers' support,too.
I'm still thinking about the human aspect.
Why you like to play 1/8 on-road? It must have thousands of reasons but the most one is "Because it is the fastest!" I love to kick 1/8's ass with 1/10 touring. Once they find my small one is faster than their 1/8,they just give up and quit. So I don't do this for a long time. Do you think a slower 1/8 spec race will grow up? When they practice and find the touring car smoke them,do you think a lot people will still support the spec race?
Running 1/8 on-road with buggy engine I have ever tried. Sometimes it is slower than 1/10 on-road. Also if racer don't know gear it up,they may blow up his motor soon due to the max rpm is different. I still think we should limit from traction(tyre) or down force(body) just like F1.
I would like to support your concept. Maybe you can try. And it needs a lot of racers' support,too.
I'm still thinking about the human aspect.
Why you like to play 1/8 on-road? It must have thousands of reasons but the most one is "Because it is the fastest!" I love to kick 1/8's ass with 1/10 touring. Once they find my small one is faster than their 1/8,they just give up and quit. So I don't do this for a long time. Do you think a slower 1/8 spec race will grow up? When they practice and find the touring car smoke them,do you think a lot people will still support the spec race?
Running 1/8 on-road with buggy engine I have ever tried. Sometimes it is slower than 1/10 on-road. Also if racer don't know gear it up,they may blow up his motor soon due to the max rpm is different. I still think we should limit from traction(tyre) or down force(body) just like F1.
The cars may or may not actual slow down...perhaps the lap times will improve with a less powerful engine...
We started with engines as it was the quickest cost reducer, if successful this could lead to other cost savers,,,tires/bodies etc...
09-12-2005, 11:01 AM
#645
Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
The cars may or may not actual slow down...perhaps the lap times will improve with a less powerful engine...
C'mon...I wouldn't go so far to make this outlandish statement...lets get real here.
John