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Old 01-13-2008, 10:14 AM   #166
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Well if this is the case, then someone can protest if they want and open the engine up. Chances are that with inexpensive motors you would be able to tell if someone had been in there with a grinder. Make the protest fee 40-50 bucks and give it to the guy if his engine is legal. If not, hes disqualified for the event. That seems like it would work, to me atleast..
That wouldn't work because you would have to have all sorts of rules then as to what is legal for the motors being used. Also you would have to have someone who knows what they are doing able to measure motors to within a few thou' to chech them. Also. Everyone knows you can mod motors and make them run better without altering legal measureable dimensions. So hence, a modded motor could and would pass and be legal, and yet the owner/user has spent either alot of time to mod the motor himself or has payed "X" $ for having it done. This is suposed to be a fun class. If people want to get fast motors to win then enter another class.

The "claim" rule as I see it would be a quick and easy way of restricting people to using only low cost (Affordable!!!) motors and for all the motors to be roughly the same. Irrespective of weather they are a sponsored driver or a boy from school with out even 2 pennies to rub together!
If people want to take a chance and come with a fast motor that they have spent (buying the motor and maybe modding it too) over the claim amount. Then at the days end if some one claim's his/her motor and it's been modded or is an expensive motor then the original owner loses both his high $ motor for the claim amount AND he gets banned from all MidWest series races and classes for the year.
I think that would be an excelent deterent against using an "outlawed" motor for the class.

Anyway. Whats the big deal. If thats going to be the rule, and you want to run the class you go out and buy a motor under the claim amount and run it !
Wheres the hassle in that?
Go Tech, Axial and others do excelent motors for this class that great right out of the box, they would come easily under $250 or even $200 !!!
Seams to me that the people who moan and groan about rules are the ones who have,in the past, or want to get around them and cheet.

Otherwise, why moan? Just do it and enjoy the racing. If you have a "Bee in your bonnet" about being called a cheet then may be you feel guilty?? If you have never cheet and don't intend to then it's not YOU I'm talking to or about !!!
I have never seen such cheeting in RC car racing as since I have come to the U.S !! With very little or know punishments given out.
My own personal view is that if a governing body such as ROAR find a driver (Even a driver Mechanic combo' even!) blatenly cheeting. By blatent I mean like running a five port in a class where only 3 port motors are allowed. Then that person(s) would be banned friom the governing body for life! And not allowed in any ROAR sactioned races!!

Yes winning is good but ask yourself which is better, a bad man who wins, or a good man who wins. You still get the win either way but one or the other tells you what kind of person you are.

Gone on a bit here I know but hey ho. Sorry.

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Old 01-13-2008, 10:31 AM   #167
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The MidWest Series is a great series of races now made even better by the addition of a fine person in Ron (Duneland)

His enthusiasm and dedication to the hobby is great and the series will only benefit from having him.

The addition of a "stock" or "Fun" class such as this one being discussed, is a great idea! To widen the attraction to the series and get beginners and people who just don't think they're upto a "good enough" standard to race in the other, normally run classes. It will get them to the races where they will be able to participate aswell as learn and watch the better drivers and cars out there and be inspired.

I find watching the top class drivers that come to the series is inspiring aswell as just good entertainment.
People such as, Ira, Bobby Flack, Ray J., Paul Lemieu, Larry Stone and lots more besides. These people, due to their huge talent and experteze, will inspire these more inexperienced people and will help the hobby become strong.

I think the races this year will be great and the series will be better then ever.

I, like many others am looking foreword to racing again this year!

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:02 PM   #168
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Well I guess you're right, what was I thinking. You talk about all these people that would want to mod there motors yet you're the only person to bring it up. Whats the difference between taking a motor that fits under the claim amount and working on it to make it faster. Its orignal price was still within the claim rules so why wouldn't someone be able to do that. So how are we supposed to police that when theres probally 10-15 options for motors under 250. With my idea (which is wrong I know), there would only be a few options so everyone would be very familar with these motors and as I said before they would be inexpensive, which usually means that not much machining would go into the sleeve. That would make it very easy to disassemble and look at to see if anything had been worked on. Maybe even have a small protest commitee to decide that way its not just one person.

I should also say I am not planning on racing this class just throwing some (obviously wrong) ideas around.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:18 PM   #169
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I also don't really care how this is ultimately done, but just wanted to throw some ideas out there. In the end, I don't care what ends up being done... I'll run the few Midwest Series races I can fit into my schedule this year (probably two).

As for the claim rule, I think what has already been said is how it would go. Claims could only be made at the end of the event, so you don't have to show with extra engines in case guys keep claiming them during the event... that wouldn't work.

If the claimee refused to give up the engine, he is given a DQ for the event and can't run in GT class anymore.

If more than one guy wants to claim someone's engine, put all the names in a hat that want the engine and let Ron pick a name.

If someone buys a $100 engine and does a $100 mod, that's fine. If it get's claimed, they can take the $200 and do it over again (and the $200 number was only used as an example, of course... the claim amount could be any amount Rod decided on to be appropriate).

I actually like Leisure's rule of 'Inferno GTs' only, stock engine only, but I think that's too restrictive for the Midwest Series, hence the idea of a claim rule, to keep things under control (cheap) but not require any 'tech' at all.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:57 PM   #170
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Well I guess you're right, what was I thinking. You talk about all these people that would want to mod there motors yet you're the only person to bring it up. Whats the difference between taking a motor that fits under the claim amount and working on it to make it faster. Its orignal price was still within the claim rules so why wouldn't someone be able to do that. So how are we supposed to police that when theres probally 10-15 options for motors under 250. With my idea (which is wrong I know), there would only be a few options so everyone would be very familar with these motors and as I said before they would be inexpensive, which usually means that not much machining would go into the sleeve. That would make it very easy to disassemble and look at to see if anything had been worked on. Maybe even have a small protest commitee to decide that way its not just one person.

I should also say I am not planning on racing this class just throwing some (obviously wrong) ideas around.

You know what...........your right.
We're not even racing in the class.

The claim rule has obviously been used before so it must work.
Just as the motor list has been used before so it must work.

Whatever is used I hope it benefits the racing and the series.

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Old 01-13-2008, 04:39 PM   #171
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One more option to consider that has been done in another series that I raced in is that the first person to lay claim gets the claim to settle all multiple caims. But here are some main differences, the claim amount is set lower and paid and you also give your engine up. Also, the claim can only be done by someone from the same main. Do remember this though, you think people are mad at loosing to a "possible" cheater wait until someone gets claimed. There was also a small tear down and inspection fee that could be paid by a racer unanonimosly just to have one checked. If found to be in violation the engine and points are forfitted and racer was suspended for 2 races. By the way, there were still cheaters. Some people have money to burn and winning is all that matters and you can't stop them only suspend and embarrASS them.

By the way Tony, thanks I didn't see my named mentioned with Ira, Stone, Flack and all those other guys you mentioned earlier. Just kidding bud, their way outta my league, which is probably why you didn't include me. Are you racing with me this year are not? That whole dirt thing is over rated. Say hi to the wife and lil' menances.
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Old 01-13-2008, 05:09 PM   #172
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You know what...........your right.
We're not even racing in the class.

The claim rule has obviously been used before so it must work.
Just as the motor list has been used before so it must work.

Whatever is used I hope it benefits the racing and the series.

British Menace
I agree with you there... whatever they decide will work fine.
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Old 01-13-2008, 06:21 PM   #173
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Do remember this though, you think people are mad at loosing to a "possible" cheater wait until someone gets claimed.

That is exactly what I am worried about. How bad do you guys want to set up a system where someone can accuse one of the people they hang with six weekends a year of being a no good low life cheater.
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Old 01-13-2008, 07:18 PM   #174
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Old 01-13-2008, 08:20 PM   #175
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That is exactly what I am worried about. How bad do you guys want to set up a system where someone can accuse one of the people they hang with six weekends a year of being a no good low life cheater.
I can see what you are saying, perhaps some safeguards to the claim rule should be in place before a claim rule is warranted to be excercised. So if someone is intentionally going to cheat with their engine, they're basically doing it blatantly and they would not be your friend anyway. And if they weren't intentionally trying to break the rules I thought of a few guidelines for the claim process:

1st- upon sign in, driver's acknowledge that there is a claim rule in effect
2nd- only top 3 driver's are subject to claim rules after each round.
3rd- IF there is a claim, the claimee has the right to claim the claimor's engine plus $50-75 from the claimor (instead of taking money theres a swap +50-75 bucks for his trouble and heartache). If he chooses not to take the other guy's engine, he must take the full claim amount. This assures that the person who gets his engine claimed will have an engine to continue. If the claimee doesn't like whats in the other guys car, an available popular engine for this class must be available from a dealer on site or the claim is not permitted. The claimor must fund the claim amount.
4th- Enough time must be available between rounds for an engine swap-retune at the time of the claim. A specific time perioud should be called out in the race schedule for claims to be excercised(for instance the claim may only be performed at the end of saturday session, or before mains). If the claim is made too late, then its not permitted. If the actual claim is called at the first round, the driver doesn't have to pull it out of their car until the those timeframes.
5th- If the claimee is feels that the claim is unwarranted, the the race director and the Midwest Series director may have discretion in deciding that the claim was warranted either by having it teched or researching the questioned motor's street price.
6th- The claim amount must be set high enough so that most quality ummodified engines are replaceable. This will alleviate the fear of quality vs quantity question.

Ray J- I'd be happy to take your money if you claim my engine. That way I can drop in a new motor! Please DO, I won't get mad!

Regarding the approved motor list, it doesn't address the issue of motor modified or it being blue printed. I do have a problem with that because that's where the class could lose appeal (even if your doing it yourself). It reminds me of the time I was getting smoked in stock class electric racing because I was not good at tweaking 'stock' motors. Plus lets make it easy on Ron, an approved motor list makes more work for him (technically ROAR would be doing this job). I think this class would be greatly appealing if we can all rest assured that the only types of engines in this class are truly 'bone stock'.
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Old 01-14-2008, 04:55 AM   #176
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Default Engine debate.

Tom .......................I don't plan on buying or claiming any engine...............I was just kidding. I couldn't imagine doing that to anyone. Sorry if you even for a second thought....I was serious.

I'm kinda wondering about this entire engine debate, and why I even commented on it. We don't even tech .....our regular classes.....200mm........and 1/8th scale. What makes this class any different? Really nothing. ..............Mark Unger kinda said it awhile ago when there was a debate about 1/8th scale rear tires used up front......it's against the rules..........please don't do it. The Midwest Series is supposed to remain fun..........as it always has. I can't imagine having Ron having to set up tech inspections, and run races. His job will be difficult enough as it is.

A guideline for accepted motors would be great. Rules for body's, tires and car platforms are for a more level playing field. We all have to live by them, and hopefully adhere to them. In the past four years that I've raced the series, I really never heard anyone really complain about cheating. If our races turn into a tech events it will be a real pain in the arse. After teching the GLC in the past two years, it was no fun. For those high level races and for the pro's who attend, it has to be done. If it starts happening with the Midwest Series..... this series will lose the fun value. Most of us know the rules it's the honor system. Just live by them. Whatever Ron decides I'm sure will be fine. I really like the looks of those cars, and after watching them on racing videos I might get one. Just to have fun with.
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Old 01-14-2008, 05:47 AM   #177
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Why do us as racers make such an issue out of a new class that is supposed to be a FUN class? Why must there be sooooooo many rules? Jeesh The Midwest Series is supposed to be competitive and fun. Leave the competitiveness to the 1/8 scale open, masters and 1/10 touring. Leave this class alone for this year and try and get some new racers to join in. Lets just try and have some fun for a change! I'm sure Ron will make the right decision for this year and if not it can be changed for next. Lets just try and get some new racers huh..........
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Old 01-14-2008, 07:02 AM   #178
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Eli and RayJ,

That is exactly my point. Why would we even take a chance on loosing one single racer when he either gets and engine claimed or watches someone go thru the process. And like both of you said, this is the fun class, "Drop and drive" is what I like to call it.

As far as all the conversation on here, I am in Daytona and bored so I spend to much time on here!!!
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:09 AM   #179
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WOW! After reading all this discussion on this proposed new class Eli finally said what needed to be said. “Isn’t it supposed to be a FUN class”? I thought the idea of this class was to bring new racers into the fold. If that’s what is accomplished by doing this, these new racers biggest problem isn’t going to be not enough power. We all know there’s a lot more to going fast then a “killer” motor. And for the experienced on-road racer that wants to run in this class, do you think he wants to cheat to show how bad he can beat these new racers? If so then he’s probably been trying to cheat in the class he’s running in now.
I don’t think we have an issue here in the MWS. Let’s not try and make any more work for Ron.

Mark
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Old 01-14-2008, 09:23 AM   #180
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I am not in favor of an approved engine list. There are too many engines out there that could be used. I favor setting the claiming price higher just like RC PRO series $300. Most racers already have 3-4 used engines already in there box. Usually not in the best condition,but usable. Who knows how long they will last, and if some one gives you $300 for it at the end of the weekend. I think you come out ahead. I think the new class will see new people with new cars, but expierenced racers will also breakout the old buggy from 2-3 years ago. By slaping a new body on some cut down shock towers and shortened shocks. This class could have a very big turn out. With the possibility of huge diversity of equipment. Keep the rules very simple. Buggy based chassis and sedan bodys.
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