Rule changes and classes for 2010
09-20-2009, 04:08 PM
#166
Let me try and explain it a different way about this perceived top speed issue.
2 cars. One runs 34mph top speed, the other 25mph.
Track layout is typical, 350 - 450 foot racing line. I will even give you 2 100 foot straights, generous considering we normally only have 1 straight where you can open up full speed.
Now understanding that the cars will not reach top speed until middle of the straight (normally its the last 1/3rd of the straight) I will give you some oversimplified math that doesn't take into account the actual speed up time. I am only going to give you straight line time gained during the straight away since that is the big beef everyone seems to have. Both cars will have the same speed on the infield since they won't ever reach top speed there due to short areas and braking.
Both cars travel the first half of the straights at the same speed... to 25mph. Now if the 34mph car can INSTANTLY go from 25 to 34mph, it will travel the last half (50 ft) of straightaway in 1 second. The 25mph car will travel the same distance in 1.35 seconds. Given ramp time of the higher speed car, this will most likely be in the advantage gained of .1 to .2 seconds.
Now let's say the fast car just averages .15 each straight. That's .3 a lap faster than the slower car, all else being equal.
Now this fast guy who's getting a whopping .3 seconds a lap on you because of his John Force Rick Hendrick powerplant, will gain after 8 minutes, are you ready for this...
6.6 seconds after 20 laps. That's on the last posted race where we had 22 second laps. Your fast guy with his Lightspeed Mellinium Falcon Kessel Run in 12 parsecs motor, outran you by a whopping 1/3 of a lap.
You didn't get beat by multiple laps due to some guy running 10mph faster than you down the straight. You lost by 6 seconds due to the 10mph difference. The other 3 1/2 laps came from using the pipes as guides to keep you from going off track, non optimum setup, or just not driving the most efficient lines around the track.
The dynamic speedos are not beating everyone like they think, its setup and driving skill.
Next memphis race i'm at, my Dynamic Speedo will be set for no timing boosts on my VTA.
2 cars. One runs 34mph top speed, the other 25mph.
Track layout is typical, 350 - 450 foot racing line. I will even give you 2 100 foot straights, generous considering we normally only have 1 straight where you can open up full speed.
Now understanding that the cars will not reach top speed until middle of the straight (normally its the last 1/3rd of the straight) I will give you some oversimplified math that doesn't take into account the actual speed up time. I am only going to give you straight line time gained during the straight away since that is the big beef everyone seems to have. Both cars will have the same speed on the infield since they won't ever reach top speed there due to short areas and braking.
Both cars travel the first half of the straights at the same speed... to 25mph. Now if the 34mph car can INSTANTLY go from 25 to 34mph, it will travel the last half (50 ft) of straightaway in 1 second. The 25mph car will travel the same distance in 1.35 seconds. Given ramp time of the higher speed car, this will most likely be in the advantage gained of .1 to .2 seconds.
Now let's say the fast car just averages .15 each straight. That's .3 a lap faster than the slower car, all else being equal.
Now this fast guy who's getting a whopping .3 seconds a lap on you because of his John Force Rick Hendrick powerplant, will gain after 8 minutes, are you ready for this...
6.6 seconds after 20 laps. That's on the last posted race where we had 22 second laps. Your fast guy with his Lightspeed Mellinium Falcon Kessel Run in 12 parsecs motor, outran you by a whopping 1/3 of a lap.
You didn't get beat by multiple laps due to some guy running 10mph faster than you down the straight. You lost by 6 seconds due to the 10mph difference. The other 3 1/2 laps came from using the pipes as guides to keep you from going off track, non optimum setup, or just not driving the most efficient lines around the track.
The dynamic speedos are not beating everyone like they think, its setup and driving skill.
Next memphis race i'm at, my Dynamic Speedo will be set for no timing boosts on my VTA.
09-20-2009, 06:05 PM
#167
Hey guys I have a real keen idea since everyone has so much effort on how to fix things. How about if everyone that has had input on this subject shows up next weekend to help with track setup then with this many hands it shouldn't take but 15 or 20 minutes to setup the track then we will have PLENTY of time to hash these issues out instead of everyone showing up just in time to throw up a pit and not do nothing towards helping one of the real problems we have had for YEARS!!! What everyone keeps missing here is this is RACING- it is about seeing how much faster you can go without the other guy catching up!! The VTA with TT01's was a good idea last year but remember how it went first week there were 6 or 8 then the next week it dropped by about 3 then the next week it dropped again the it ended up having 3 cars if I am not mistaken. And the only reason it had that many is because they all belonged to the same guy and he was letting other people drive them. Next remember IGT same thing happened with that, took off fast anf had plenty of them, then people got bored with the fact that the fast people could dirve them and the slower or mid pack people couldn't keep up then they just quit. So in essence the class just died out. Why? One reason is that most racers think that they can buy speed. Not learn setup, but buy fast. The only reason it hasn't totally happened in Mini is beacuse they are one of the cheapest cars out there and they are tough as nails and hard to break, plus you can actually run them at TCS.
I just think that before you guys try and think about how you are going to change the rules you might want to consider how to get more help to help on race day. Most people tend to ferget how much work is involved in setting up and getting the equipment out there. They just look at it as I can get there 15 minutes before race time and not worry about anything but running my car a couple of laps then I can start complaining about why we start so late, even though they never lift a finger to help in anyway other than pointing it!!
When people have been there for a while and can't even get to practice trying to get things ready for everyone else that doesn't do anything but race and then leave. To me these are the issues that really need to be addressed, not how much time you lose because you had to get turn marshalled too many times and can't setup your car and got beat by 8 laps!! If more people helped out on race day then ther would be more time for everyone to have more time to practice then alot of these issues would work themselves out without having to do anything. More wheel time= better driving which=faster lap times which= better setup knowledge which =faster, happier and more competitive racers!!!
I just think that before you guys try and think about how you are going to change the rules you might want to consider how to get more help to help on race day. Most people tend to ferget how much work is involved in setting up and getting the equipment out there. They just look at it as I can get there 15 minutes before race time and not worry about anything but running my car a couple of laps then I can start complaining about why we start so late, even though they never lift a finger to help in anyway other than pointing it!!
When people have been there for a while and can't even get to practice trying to get things ready for everyone else that doesn't do anything but race and then leave. To me these are the issues that really need to be addressed, not how much time you lose because you had to get turn marshalled too many times and can't setup your car and got beat by 8 laps!! If more people helped out on race day then ther would be more time for everyone to have more time to practice then alot of these issues would work themselves out without having to do anything. More wheel time= better driving which=faster lap times which= better setup knowledge which =faster, happier and more competitive racers!!!
09-20-2009, 07:45 PM
#168
track set up
Sid has some very valid points about track set up and practice time. Last year (or maybe year before that) I pulled the trailer quite a few times and then had to go back home to get our race stuff. Setting up on Saturday evening was good but then it got to where you only had the same couple of people showing up then. It finally got to the point to where people refused to set up the track early on Sunday until "x" number of people showed up to help. Track set up is not fun for anyone but it is required in order to have a track to race on. The same goes for tear down but that's not usually as much of a problem.
Remember that everyone here is a racer. There is not a dedicated race director/builder for the club. It is everyones part to help. There will come a day that those who do it each week will say screw it let someone else put it up. Then who will step forward at that time?
Like my statement above about a dedicated race director that doesn't race, there isn't one. That's probably the reason there is no teching taking place. I don't mean to step on anyone's toes with what I'm about to say but here goes. When the club decided to make VTA a class for this year, it was using the VTA rules strictly with the one exception of black can with a specific gearing that Frank and John worked on. This was due to the fact of those that had the black cans from the previous year could still run them. I intended on putting a car together for this year and use some of Lee's old equipment. My intentions were to take his old 17.5 motor, convert some of his old 6 cell packs to 4 cell and use his old GTB. People were saying this is just for fun close racing. Heck, those that have seen me drive, know that I can't run a clean lap anyway. What it sounds like is that this class around here has become another TC class with different bodies and tires.
If you are going to establish a class with certain rules, then follow those rules. I could not tell you if everyone is running a Novak 21.5 or what but that's what the rules state.
I have my car together now with a GTB, Novak 21.5 and lipo. Yes, I'll be one of those to get lapped but that's because I can't drive.
Remember that everyone here is a racer. There is not a dedicated race director/builder for the club. It is everyones part to help. There will come a day that those who do it each week will say screw it let someone else put it up. Then who will step forward at that time?
Like my statement above about a dedicated race director that doesn't race, there isn't one. That's probably the reason there is no teching taking place. I don't mean to step on anyone's toes with what I'm about to say but here goes. When the club decided to make VTA a class for this year, it was using the VTA rules strictly with the one exception of black can with a specific gearing that Frank and John worked on. This was due to the fact of those that had the black cans from the previous year could still run them. I intended on putting a car together for this year and use some of Lee's old equipment. My intentions were to take his old 17.5 motor, convert some of his old 6 cell packs to 4 cell and use his old GTB. People were saying this is just for fun close racing. Heck, those that have seen me drive, know that I can't run a clean lap anyway. What it sounds like is that this class around here has become another TC class with different bodies and tires.
If you are going to establish a class with certain rules, then follow those rules. I could not tell you if everyone is running a Novak 21.5 or what but that's what the rules state.
I have my car together now with a GTB, Novak 21.5 and lipo. Yes, I'll be one of those to get lapped but that's because I can't drive.
09-20-2009, 08:14 PM
#169
One thing I forgot to mention was that I heard from a member that there were a couple of people at BTH were running a 17.5/lipo combination in VTA. That is not in the rules and the way I personally feel is that a $30 trophy is not worth me wasting my ego to think that I have to cheat to win, and by doing so I have accomplished something. The only thing that type of attitude accomplishes is dishonesty. That absolutely SUCKS. There are enough guys that are trying real hard to become faster and still stay within their class rules. Personally that is why I choose sedan racing, because I am trying to find the fastest setup without fighting tires and aerodynamics that make setup different than what I am used to. We don't have the man power for track setup much less the man power to try and catch blatant cheating attempts.
Phil made some good points because we still have the handful of people that are still making the effort to setup. As a club we can only take advantage of this for so long, then you begin to run into the problems Phil mentioned about having to have X number of people before setup starts which means later starts which means later days until you end up with the attitude that whats the use, I'm not going to get any help so why should I make the effort??
Phil made some good points because we still have the handful of people that are still making the effort to setup. As a club we can only take advantage of this for so long, then you begin to run into the problems Phil mentioned about having to have X number of people before setup starts which means later starts which means later days until you end up with the attitude that whats the use, I'm not going to get any help so why should I make the effort??
09-20-2009, 08:35 PM
#170
i think you guys should just wait an see what Rob and the USVTA decide on..a higher fdr or turn the boost off...your club shouldnt worry about tech due to the fact that everybody running this class needs to re-read the National rules so its clear to why this class was made.....the only time tech should be really looked at is trophy or oney races..thats when you have outta towners as well....you vta racers should trust each other to run heads up and honest...there is no place for ceating in slow classes..this class is all about fun ...nothing else..if you get a little rivalry...great..but dont spoil the racing for the majority...
also I looked at most of the cars at BTH...and didnt see any "REAL" cheating...if there was some 17.5 going on they wasnt in the top 5 at least. but this goes back to trust and honesty among the vta racers...guys this is the re-birth of on-road racing across the country...if we dont do right by this class we will lose it...
also I looked at most of the cars at BTH...and didnt see any "REAL" cheating...if there was some 17.5 going on they wasnt in the top 5 at least. but this goes back to trust and honesty among the vta racers...guys this is the re-birth of on-road racing across the country...if we dont do right by this class we will lose it...
09-21-2009, 08:09 AM
#171
Once again, funny thing is , Why do we here in memphis always want to change this and change that, the National rules are the RULES.
You dont go the the IIC or the Snowbirds or the Roar Nats and they have different rules.
This is why so many stop racing and then other talk about cost. changes and more changes.
JUST RACE!!!!
You dont go the the IIC or the Snowbirds or the Roar Nats and they have different rules.
This is why so many stop racing and then other talk about cost. changes and more changes.
JUST RACE!!!!
09-21-2009, 09:48 AM
#172
Probably just best to wait until the USVTA guys do something, then. I have a feeling that given the idea and nature of the class, it's kind of silly to go through, calculate all these power combinations, work out final drive ratios, and then leave out there an option that throws all those calculations in the garbage. But it's likely we won't see anything about it until the 2010 rules come out.
09-21-2009, 09:54 AM
#173
Once again, funny thing is , Why do we here in memphis always want to change this and change that, the National rules are the RULES.
You dont go the the IIC or the Snowbirds or the Roar Nats and they have different rules.
This is why so many stop racing and then other talk about cost. changes and more changes.
JUST RACE!!!!
You dont go the the IIC or the Snowbirds or the Roar Nats and they have different rules.
This is why so many stop racing and then other talk about cost. changes and more changes.
JUST RACE!!!!
and a racer translates this is to use that equipment and make it go as fast as possible. whats wrong with that? this is the nature of racers some just excell more than others that is what makes the difference between 1st and last
09-21-2009, 10:05 AM
#174
Split the class and run them at the same time so we dont have just a few cars on the track at once. You could set up the lap counter the same as always just one class gets a number 1 added to the end of each name and the other class gets a 2 added to the end of their name. so when you look at the heat sheet you just look and see how many number 1's or 2's were in front of you. This way we all get to run together but there are two 1,2,3, spots being raced for
example
clif2
Thomas1
Justin1
Jessee2
ralph2
jolley1
ben2
Q1
JJ2
I do agree with just sticking to the National rule set, and at the same time I do see close door to door racing. It is just that the door to door racing is not between the whole class it is split between 2-3 groups on the track. So USVTA and MSRAVTA on the track at once and USVTA has to drive around the slower rides this way the MSRA class can worry about making laps and not worry about trying to move out of the way of a faster car.
As far as the "sportsman/MSRAVTA" rules go I think a top speed is the way to go. it seems to work well on the other side of the river so why won't it work well in memphis. Specing all the equipment just seems to make it harder for someone new to get in. What if you have a TT01 and BC motor and the vote goes to lets say the cyclone S and a havok system. Now you cant use your stuff to race at all or if you have a TC3 and a havok and the vote goes to the tt01 and bc motor now your stuff is useless in the sportsman class. The sportsman class should allow the most racers to run the class without having to buy new stuff and just because you have certain stuff and say well we should just make it where you got to run the stuff I have and then it will be fair someone else may not have the same stuff and have the exact same view as you....So who is going to buy the new equipment? SPEED LIMIT is my vote if the class splits in some form or another
example
clif2
Thomas1
Justin1
Jessee2
ralph2
jolley1
ben2
Q1
JJ2
I do agree with just sticking to the National rule set, and at the same time I do see close door to door racing. It is just that the door to door racing is not between the whole class it is split between 2-3 groups on the track. So USVTA and MSRAVTA on the track at once and USVTA has to drive around the slower rides this way the MSRA class can worry about making laps and not worry about trying to move out of the way of a faster car.
As far as the "sportsman/MSRAVTA" rules go I think a top speed is the way to go. it seems to work well on the other side of the river so why won't it work well in memphis. Specing all the equipment just seems to make it harder for someone new to get in. What if you have a TT01 and BC motor and the vote goes to lets say the cyclone S and a havok system. Now you cant use your stuff to race at all or if you have a TC3 and a havok and the vote goes to the tt01 and bc motor now your stuff is useless in the sportsman class. The sportsman class should allow the most racers to run the class without having to buy new stuff and just because you have certain stuff and say well we should just make it where you got to run the stuff I have and then it will be fair someone else may not have the same stuff and have the exact same view as you....So who is going to buy the new equipment? SPEED LIMIT is my vote if the class splits in some form or another
09-21-2009, 12:09 PM
#175
I told myself that I wasn't going to say anything about this but I am making an exception. A speed limit rule, are you kidding me? I have heard of splitting hairs but this is getting a little out of hand. So, you want to penalize some racers for having their stuff together and able to drive a clean race on a good racing line (for those that are within the rules of whatever class). Lest you forget that my IGT is not the fastest on the track when I race with you guys. However, I find the best line and minimize my mistakes as much as possible (when the car doesn't just quit on me
). But, I took an excessive amount of time setting the car up, testing it, and refining my setup to my driving style.
As far as the current USVTA rules, they work to keep the cars close to each other when you follow the motor/battery/FDR rules. We tried it on our carpet track and it was definitely a "who made the least mistakes, drove the best line, and setup their car the best" with all the other factors being equal. To me, it looks like the guys that take the time to do the things needed to become better/faster drivers are being punished for the ones that don't want to take the time to get better/faster. Personally, I did not get better/faster by whining about the faster guys constantly lapping me. I asked questions and found out what they were doing to get to where they were and then went out and practiced, read, studied, and tested things to see what would and would not work for me. People stretching the rules is something that will always occur in racing at any level, period. However, if you don't want to take the time to tech everyone just to keep them honest, then you can't complain when a racer pushes the envelope. If you don't have time to tech, you make the time if you want racing in a spec class to be fair.
Just me opinion on this matter.
). But, I took an excessive amount of time setting the car up, testing it, and refining my setup to my driving style. As far as the current USVTA rules, they work to keep the cars close to each other when you follow the motor/battery/FDR rules. We tried it on our carpet track and it was definitely a "who made the least mistakes, drove the best line, and setup their car the best" with all the other factors being equal. To me, it looks like the guys that take the time to do the things needed to become better/faster drivers are being punished for the ones that don't want to take the time to get better/faster. Personally, I did not get better/faster by whining about the faster guys constantly lapping me. I asked questions and found out what they were doing to get to where they were and then went out and practiced, read, studied, and tested things to see what would and would not work for me. People stretching the rules is something that will always occur in racing at any level, period. However, if you don't want to take the time to tech everyone just to keep them honest, then you can't complain when a racer pushes the envelope. If you don't have time to tech, you make the time if you want racing in a spec class to be fair.
Just me opinion on this matter.
09-21-2009, 01:03 PM
#177
I told myself that I wasn't going to say anything about this but I am making an exception. A speed limit rule, are you kidding me? I have heard of splitting hairs but this is getting a little out of hand. So, you want to penalize some racers for having their stuff together and able to drive a clean race on a good racing line (for those that are within the rules of whatever class). Lest you forget that my IGT is not the fastest on the track when I race with you guys. However, I find the best line and minimize my mistakes as much as possible (when the car doesn't just quit on me). But, I took an excessive amount of time setting the car up, testing it, and refining my setup to my driving style.
). But, I took an excessive amount of time setting the car up, testing it, and refining my setup to my driving style.Basically, what I don't get, is why people are getting so bent out of shape about it. If you have a dynamic esc, it has a setting to be standard. I mean, is it really SO BAD to set it on standard for VTA? And if you're going to cry about "Oh, I spend 29 hours a week tweaking my car." That's fine. Crush me on the infield. It'll show there. I guess what irks me about this whole debate is from what I understand it's supposed to be something of an open ended spec class. Open ended in that they've worked out various options to keep things on an even keel, so that people don't have to go and buy a silly amount of equipment if they have stuff laying around. So instead of racing on a relatively even platform, they go and find a way to get around the loopholes.
I dunno. I guess really, we know roughly what these cars are supposed to be capable of. Someone apparently has a dyno available. Really, all the club has to say is "No dynamic settings." And if someone gets blown away on the straight by a car that shouldn't be utterly blowing them away, throw it on the dyno. It it sits there and hums at a speed that we isn't right, DQ the person.
I guess it raises my hackles as much as people with zapped cans in the Slash class does. I mean, seriously... Are you THAT desperate to win a class built on leftover stampede and rustler parts?
Oh well, I'll continue to sit and wait and see what happens.
09-21-2009, 01:41 PM
#178
Speed Limit Rule =/= Lap Time rule.
Basically, what I don't get, is why people are getting so bent out of shape about it. If you have a dynamic esc, it has a setting to be standard. I mean, is it really SO BAD to set it on standard for VTA? And if you're going to cry about "Oh, I spend 29 hours a week tweaking my car." That's fine. Crush me on the infield. It'll show there. I guess what irks me about this whole debate is from what I understand it's supposed to be something of an open ended spec class. Open ended in that they've worked out various options to keep things on an even keel, so that people don't have to go and buy a silly amount of equipment if they have stuff laying around. So instead of racing on a relatively even platform, they go and find a way to get around the loopholes.
I dunno. I guess really, we know roughly what these cars are supposed to be capable of. Someone apparently has a dyno available. Really, all the club has to say is "No dynamic settings." And if someone gets blown away on the straight by a car that shouldn't be utterly blowing them away, throw it on the dyno. It it sits there and hums at a speed that we isn't right, DQ the person.
I guess it raises my hackles as much as people with zapped cans in the Slash class does. I mean, seriously... Are you THAT desperate to win a class built on leftover stampede and rustler parts?
Oh well, I'll continue to sit and wait and see what happens.
Basically, what I don't get, is why people are getting so bent out of shape about it. If you have a dynamic esc, it has a setting to be standard. I mean, is it really SO BAD to set it on standard for VTA? And if you're going to cry about "Oh, I spend 29 hours a week tweaking my car." That's fine. Crush me on the infield. It'll show there. I guess what irks me about this whole debate is from what I understand it's supposed to be something of an open ended spec class. Open ended in that they've worked out various options to keep things on an even keel, so that people don't have to go and buy a silly amount of equipment if they have stuff laying around. So instead of racing on a relatively even platform, they go and find a way to get around the loopholes.
I dunno. I guess really, we know roughly what these cars are supposed to be capable of. Someone apparently has a dyno available. Really, all the club has to say is "No dynamic settings." And if someone gets blown away on the straight by a car that shouldn't be utterly blowing them away, throw it on the dyno. It it sits there and hums at a speed that we isn't right, DQ the person.
I guess it raises my hackles as much as people with zapped cans in the Slash class does. I mean, seriously... Are you THAT desperate to win a class built on leftover stampede and rustler parts?
Oh well, I'll continue to sit and wait and see what happens.
09-21-2009, 01:49 PM
#179
Tech Regular
iTrader: (2)
People, I am done with the talk of VTA.
When you understand that it's not the top speed down the straight that is beating you, then maybe we can talk about what we really need to do to keep the class running.
Our tracks we build have 1 straight that a dynamic timing speedo will be useful. ONE. I can get about 2 tenths a lap just from that.
Infield speed because my car is set up correctly and lines I drive are correct is why people are getting smoked.
I'll even give you a better example. My car is much faster on a straight than Q's VTA is. Know what? He will beat me by at least a lap. Know why? He sets up better than me, his car handles better than mine, and he drives faster lines around the infield than me. That is where I lose to Q.
17.5 4cell / black can 6cell / 27turn 4cell will not keep up with 21.5 Lipo even if the dynamic timing doesn't exist. All things (driver skill / set up) being equal.
I have read the rules from the USVTA website. Nothing I have done to my car has violated the rules. I have the SAME equipment in my car since we started it this year. New motor cause the first one went up in smoke... but other than that... same stuff. Mathematically I can prove that dynamic speedos are not beating everyone by what they think they are. I fail to see the issue at hand everyone is seeing.
What I see is the choices available to use are somewhat equal, but not equal. What I see is technology being blamed for other issues.
Tell my why we used to run Sportsman IGT and Expert IGT?
Tell me why when we have the entries we run Sportsman 1/10th nitro and Expert 1/10th nitro.
In both of those classes... the equipment is the same. Same size motor... same size fuel cell... same size car... same body type... Why do we have a seperation of class?
Because you have people just learning set up / driving lines and all that. You put some of the Sportsman drivers with the Expert nitro... they get blitzed. I did. I remember it. It wasn't fun... So I drove Sportsman. Take Ronnie Ewing as an example. Drove Sportsman all last year. Moved up this year to Expert, learned alot about setup and driving lines. Now he is very very competitive in the Expert nitro. Did he get a Warp Factor 7 engine? No.
If people are getting hammered by 4 laps, why are we not separating the class? Is it more fun to come on the boards and debate? Let's penalize the ones that HAVEN'T BROKEN OR BENT ANY RULES.
Read that again. Haven't broken or bent any rules. People are complaining that there is no door to door racing. There is. The ones that are 4 laps down are door to door with the others that are 4 laps down. The ones 4 laps ahead are door to door with the others that are 4 laps ahead.
That is nothing more than a division of skill / setup. Race them together for more fun on the track like the 24hours of LeMans or whatever that race is where there are multiple classes on the track at the same time. Set up guidelines where you have a division so people can compete with others on their level.
A racer will never get any faster unless he / she races with someone that is faster than they are.
Set a goal. Work toward it. If your car is ill handling... Why? What is it doing? How do you go about solving it? If I lose to John Jolley by 2 laps this week... my goal next week is to get my car handling better, drive some better lines, and if I do lose... make it closer. Then I can see my progress.
What happens if we dyno cars to 24mph, turn off dynamic timing, and people still lose by 4 laps?
What then?
I'm done with this part of the discussion.
When you understand that it's not the top speed down the straight that is beating you, then maybe we can talk about what we really need to do to keep the class running.
Our tracks we build have 1 straight that a dynamic timing speedo will be useful. ONE. I can get about 2 tenths a lap just from that.
Infield speed because my car is set up correctly and lines I drive are correct is why people are getting smoked.
I'll even give you a better example. My car is much faster on a straight than Q's VTA is. Know what? He will beat me by at least a lap. Know why? He sets up better than me, his car handles better than mine, and he drives faster lines around the infield than me. That is where I lose to Q.
17.5 4cell / black can 6cell / 27turn 4cell will not keep up with 21.5 Lipo even if the dynamic timing doesn't exist. All things (driver skill / set up) being equal.
I have read the rules from the USVTA website. Nothing I have done to my car has violated the rules. I have the SAME equipment in my car since we started it this year. New motor cause the first one went up in smoke... but other than that... same stuff. Mathematically I can prove that dynamic speedos are not beating everyone by what they think they are. I fail to see the issue at hand everyone is seeing.
What I see is the choices available to use are somewhat equal, but not equal. What I see is technology being blamed for other issues.
Tell my why we used to run Sportsman IGT and Expert IGT?
Tell me why when we have the entries we run Sportsman 1/10th nitro and Expert 1/10th nitro.
In both of those classes... the equipment is the same. Same size motor... same size fuel cell... same size car... same body type... Why do we have a seperation of class?
Because you have people just learning set up / driving lines and all that. You put some of the Sportsman drivers with the Expert nitro... they get blitzed. I did. I remember it. It wasn't fun... So I drove Sportsman. Take Ronnie Ewing as an example. Drove Sportsman all last year. Moved up this year to Expert, learned alot about setup and driving lines. Now he is very very competitive in the Expert nitro. Did he get a Warp Factor 7 engine? No.
If people are getting hammered by 4 laps, why are we not separating the class? Is it more fun to come on the boards and debate? Let's penalize the ones that HAVEN'T BROKEN OR BENT ANY RULES.
Read that again. Haven't broken or bent any rules. People are complaining that there is no door to door racing. There is. The ones that are 4 laps down are door to door with the others that are 4 laps down. The ones 4 laps ahead are door to door with the others that are 4 laps ahead.
That is nothing more than a division of skill / setup. Race them together for more fun on the track like the 24hours of LeMans or whatever that race is where there are multiple classes on the track at the same time. Set up guidelines where you have a division so people can compete with others on their level.
A racer will never get any faster unless he / she races with someone that is faster than they are.
Set a goal. Work toward it. If your car is ill handling... Why? What is it doing? How do you go about solving it? If I lose to John Jolley by 2 laps this week... my goal next week is to get my car handling better, drive some better lines, and if I do lose... make it closer. Then I can see my progress.
What happens if we dyno cars to 24mph, turn off dynamic timing, and people still lose by 4 laps?
What then?
I'm done with this part of the discussion.
09-21-2009, 03:05 PM
#180
2010 VTA Suggestions
Guys, whatta ya say we don't beat ourselves up too much over this. Or the next guy either. Obviously, we all love to race and are understandably passionate about. ALL you guys have a lot more experience than I. ( Q , don't walk away, you bring a lot to the table.) However I may say it, what I, personally, would like to see all you guys hammer out is:
A way to keep the driver's stand full. I love racing with so many guys/gals that we need to worry about the tire pressure on the trailer.
A way to allow "Elmo" to race and have a good time. "Elmo" is my club member buddy that I really like to race with. I've got more money in my ESC/motor than he does in his entire car. He's struggling to pay club dues, much less paying for carbon fiber. Maybe, it's not this class. And yeah, I know it's not a perfect world, but you can aim for it sometimes.
A way to keep the rocket science in the lab and the hoops in the gym. At the end of the day, everybody there is out there to have fun. Nobody is making a pay check. Not many of us want to have to study rocket science and jump through hoops just to race. For me, at least, "Keep it Simple Stoopid." works.
Sid, as a club member, your plea for help with track layout and pick-up is taken to heart. That will certainly need to be addressed.
Somebody was talkin' about an enduro VTA. That sounds like fun guys. Is there a way it could be done this year?????
Hope to cya on the stand. Ron.
Thanks Thomas.
A way to keep the driver's stand full. I love racing with so many guys/gals that we need to worry about the tire pressure on the trailer.
A way to allow "Elmo" to race and have a good time. "Elmo" is my club member buddy that I really like to race with. I've got more money in my ESC/motor than he does in his entire car. He's struggling to pay club dues, much less paying for carbon fiber. Maybe, it's not this class. And yeah, I know it's not a perfect world, but you can aim for it sometimes.
A way to keep the rocket science in the lab and the hoops in the gym. At the end of the day, everybody there is out there to have fun. Nobody is making a pay check. Not many of us want to have to study rocket science and jump through hoops just to race. For me, at least, "Keep it Simple Stoopid." works.
Sid, as a club member, your plea for help with track layout and pick-up is taken to heart. That will certainly need to be addressed.
Somebody was talkin' about an enduro VTA. That sounds like fun guys. Is there a way it could be done this year?????
Hope to cya on the stand. Ron.
Thanks Thomas.