billneu

I'm sure you all have already seen my last posting on this.....



http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthre...=152939&page=4

But just in case!

Bill N.

Two from the bottom. Or two above the posting by our ROAR regional director on this subject.

End of story guys! Lets just set up one huge Oval track in PKC and race for laps and not time! It's just racing and if we only turn left then so be it!

wildman

iTrader: (1)

Randy, Mitch, Tyler or anyone else that I may have offended I APOLOGIZE for that. I was not on a witch hunt and I didn't want it to turn out this way. Randy if you thought rebalancing was legal I thought it wasn't. Simple. If I am in the wrong then like I said I APOLOGIZE.
I never said Randy or Mitch were not great drivers, I love the competition and look forward to racing with them as much as I can. I just get very upset when rules are not followed or unclear to all.
Randy $30.00 sounds cheap I am sure Bill would buy one!
See you all at Prairie Nights.
Brian

AdrianM

iTrader: (4)

Wildman - The Hemi Komodo's aren't anything special. You think they would be faster (I though so to) but in reality my strongest Komodo is a cross wrap version. If the Komodo Hemi is better the improvement is so misnicule that it is worth nothing on the track.

billneu

A famous race car mechanic once said! (No idea which one)


"What is the best way to lighten a race car by 100 pounds? Remove 1,600 ounces, one ounce at a time"


Bill N.

billneu

Why do we use wheel bearings instead of brass bushings?

Why do we lower the car to the min clearance?

Why do we oil the mtr bearings?

why do we use 4200s and not 3800s, when we still have 1200mah left in our batteries?

Why do we re-peak the batteries?

Why do we check to see if all of the tire sizes match?

Why do we use Paragon instead of the other non smelly stuff?

Why do we use traction compound at all?

Why do we cut the armature?

Why do we put in new brushes?

Why do we buy new motors?

Why don't we use the motors we had in the 90s?

Why did we buy the newest version of the car we drive?

Why do we change tire compounds?

Why do we even practice?

Why is Stormer selling all of this stuff to us?

Why Etc. (Add to this list if you please)

Why?

So we can go just a little bit faster than the guys that didn't do one or two of things I did, so I can win the race! Why did I hit the wall? Because one of the above things failed me? (See practice). (Maybe tire chunked from previous crash)

Individually these things don't matter much, but when you add them all up? We'll? Right now people are concerned about one or two of the why's?

Thats why this all matters!

Bill N.

AdrianM

iTrader: (4)

...and then guys miss simple details that make them half a second a lap slower than they could be.

...and they spend so much time working on their cars and bench racing that even though they have national level gear that are in the c-main at club races.

YoKoMo-MX4

At Brian's request, I will say what I said before and try to make it clearer.

The quote I posted saying, "ROAR wants the motor raced as it was received." may be clarified by saying, "ROAR wants the motor (armature) raced as it is received (packaged) from a ROAR defined motor importer, manufacturer or builder." See rule section 8.4.3 "MOTOR APPROVAL PROCEDURE" for some definition of importer/manufacturer/builder.

Think of it as, "Race the armature as you bought it at the hobby shop counter." EDIT: With the exception of cutting the comm ... this is allowed of course.

I am with the understanding that drill balancing of a ROAR Stock Motor is implied as a legal tuning option for an importer, manufacturer or builder.

Does the freedom to drill balance a ROAR Stock Motor armature apply to a racer as well? I believe it must simply because there is too much room for subjective interpretation of the current (2007) rules.

What is impossible to judge in an objective way is, "What constitutes 'drilling to lighten' versus 'drilling to balance' ?" and "Was an armature drilled after it was purchased?"

My answer to those questions is that there is no current rule in the 2007 ROAR Rulebook that clearly defines what is or is not allowed with respect to drill balancing a ROAR Stock Motor armature.

Because there is no objective rule (i.e. a rule that defines width, depth or number of drill balancing marks) it is impossible to tech a 'drill balanced' ROAR Stock Motor armature in any way other than by personal opinion (a subjective measurement) of the designated 'teching official'.

The current (2007) rules dealing with ROAR Stock Motor armatures are not what I would consider good rules. There is far too much room for subjective interpretation and enforcement. I believe that 'personal opinion' has little place in a rulebook of any kind. Being concise, clear and easy to read should be the goals of any given rulebook.

So the long and short of it is, "Drill balanced ROAR Stock Motor armatures are legal, but virtually impossible to tech in a fair and equitable way."

Going back to the "Gentlemen’s rule" regarding this: If an armature is 'swiss cheezed' then I think most anyone would agree that it is 'drilled to lighten' ... however if the drill marks on an armature are indistinguishable from a 'new in package' drill balanced armature, then there is no way to tell whether it was balanced after it was purchased.

I am trying to be a ROAR representative only in this matter. I do not feel it is my place to make a 'rules to be used' declaration regarding the upcoming PKC race since I am not organizing it. One of the event organizers will need to answer that specific question.

Thanks for reading.

Regards,
Jason Mosser
Region 7 Director

magnum

iTrader: (2)

race ya to the bar at the casio

billneu

Sounds like stock racing just got real expensive!

Bob? How much did you say a dynamic balancer costs? $11,000 or something? New? or used?

Refer to my why posting! One more ounce of Horse Power to buy!



Bill


Can you say Brushless? Which one cost more now!

I just wanted to run brushless! That's how this all started out! And look were this has all taken us! Back to were it all began. Boom...

YoKoMo-MX4

<sarcasm>
Real constructive Bill. Thanks...
</sarcasm>

billneu

When in Rome, do as the Romans!

I'm not making the rules here nor am I interpreting them any different than what has been said above.

I didn't open up the can of worms either! I just got my hook out so I can use a few for my next fishing trip!

Bill

What else can't be teched???? Any suggestions?

Scottrik

iTrader: (261)

Then, after you spend $10,980 more on a balancer than Randy did (my understanding is he's using a TopFlite magnetic balancer w/Niftech tips for the shafts) it'll REALLY piss you off when he and Mitch STILL hand you your ass on the track by the same 4-5 laps. It's just sad to me that people have so little perspective when it comes to these things.

I guess if I were Randy and it had a couple people THIS wound up about an absolutely infintessimal (if even measureable) difference I'd be inclined to run non-rebalanced motors for club races. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're already doing this. I certainly appreciate that they're preparing themselves for racing at a level few of us have seen, much less competed at. I also have not SO deluded myself that I believe ANYTHING they've done with their motors gets them any further from me. In fact I'd wager I could run 19-T in stock and STILL lose to Mitch. And I made the 'A' at Degelmann both years, qualifying right with you times Bill.

As I also said...I ran in the same qualifiers as Randy this past Dec. and in several trips together down that LOOONG straight (every time he lapped me ) he never pulled me on the straight. I was running a brand new out of the package Epic X "Pro". Never took it out of the car all weekend even to clean it. Probably smeared oil around the bushings twice.

Then again...he's won the psych war...even if he DIDN'T re-balance arms for PKC you guys would be all shook that he had.

HEY...killer idea...all those in favor of letting Bill run a spec 19-T in stock at PKC please raise their hands. I could care less if it causes him to beat me by a couple laps--I just want to see where the bs stops and the racin' starts. I'm also curious to see what the new rationale for STILL getting beat becomes.

Fact. They spend less time at the track piddling around with motors and more time adjusting set-ups...because they know THAT'S where the time is. Plus they drive WAY better than either you or I.

Scottrik

Cain

iTrader: (294)

Jason,

How are things by you! Still running the Predator 4 wheeler? I am going to be in bismarck this weekend, thinking of stopping by the shop and checking out the track if its in runnable shape with my SB V2 Pro.

I got a question on one part of what you posted and just wanted some clarification:

What I don't understand is that based on what ROAR said to you, it appears they don't want a racer to do any drill rebalancing, only importer, manufacturer, or builder as you said initially.

But the next part you state you believe that this is allowed for a racer because its too subjective an interpretation. But did ROAR clarify this during your communication with them? Its seems as if they did, which got rid of it being subjective.

Just confused on that part.

Hopefully this can all get cleared up asap as people getting argumentative with each other regardless of what side you are on really helps no one. And after meeting most of you, you all are pretty cool guys.

wildman

iTrader: (1)

How many times do I need to repeat this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill never said he could beat Mitch or Randy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He was talking about drivers around his own skill level!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As far as setup goes in 1/12 the ONLY major changes being made from track to track motor to motor is TIRES. Look at the three winning setups for the carpet nat's! All won by a SpeedMerchant and all three were almost running the very same setup. ONLY differance tires. So don't tell me it's all about setup I know better. In sedan setup makes a bigger differance, way more things going on than in 1/12. Everyone is running very good cars and most are running winning setups on them, so it comes down to driver and HP that makes the biggest differance. You may take a tenth or two off with setup, but not seconds. Yes making changes helps, but not to the extreme of shaving seconds off your lap times.

Jason,
Thank you for taking the time to clear up the rules!

Scottrik,
Let me ask you this if you and Bill were racing mod and you won by lap or two and then you raced stock and Bill won by a lap or two. all things considered equal as far as crashing and traffic.
What would be the reason for this?
You are a better mod driver than Bill? Maybe?
Bill is a better stock driver? I don't think so!
Gearing may play into this in stock, but HP is the equalizer in any racing sport.

Stock racing today is not about who's the fastest down the straight. It's about who's has the acceleration off the corners and drive the car to carry speed around the corners. HP is stock is the Key or we wouldn't see the issues being brought up.

By the way Randy doesn't have a cheap prop balancer for balancing his arms. It's was purchased from Todd Putnam / Putnam motors.

I am not trying to start this up again, but just wanted to clear up the Bill bashing!
Brian

Scottrik

iTrader: (261)

Excellent.

I propose a match race/grudge race at PKC after dinner on Saturday. I will make a couple different proposals and then PUT MY MONEY WHERE MY MOUTH IS.


Proposal A.

I will buy a brand new 23T (or whatever that "outlaw" stock I see around is) and let Bill do whatever tuning/tweaking he wants on it and use that. I will buy two brand new 27T ROAR stock motors for Mitch and Randy to use--they will run them as they come from the package other than tweaking the springs, profiling brushes, etc but all parts in the motor will be the parts they came with. They will be allowed to true the comm to whatever dia they choose and run them on the dyno to help figure gearing selection.

You KNOW nobody's 27T motor is making CLOSE to the power of a 23T, but I'd be willing to alter any of the above "allowables" with very little argument.

Then the race. I will bet up to $500 against any sydicate you wish to name (basically, Bill can bet $500 against me or Brian and Bill can each bet $250, or they and two friends can bet $125 each). Eight minute race. If Bill beats both of them I pay the $500. If both Randy and Mitch beat Bill, Bill and/or his syndicate pay me the $500. If Bill finishes between the two we call it a draw.

I know I said 19T before, and I'd do that but the bet would be $100 instead.


Proposal B.

Bill runs his own car/motor, Mitch will run MY car and motor. Same 8 minutes. Mitch gets a 2-minute test drive of my car and 15 minutes to adjust it prior to the race.

I would bet $500 on that race with the caveat that a demonstrable mechanical failure on my car reduces that bet to $250.


Wacky Bonus Proposal.

Run the race/bet as in Proposal B, but Mitch runs his own car but with my tires on it. We will do a drawing to see what compound Mitch gets on which corner. We'll make one slip each for two different compounds front and two different compounds rear--he will not get a matching compound on either axle and how they're paired up side-to-side will be random. The tires will be trued to the depth Mitch specifies. Again, Mitch gets a 2-minute test drive on the random tire set and then 15 minutes to adjust his car.

Of course any of these proposals presume Mitch and Randy would care to do this.

You guys in or out? I say this "I'm getting beat by horsepower" is complete crap and I'm willing to pay to prove it.

Scottrik