What constitutes a ROAR legal stock arm?
03-22-2007, 01:01 PM
#31
Originally Posted by wildman
Keith,
This is what the regioal director posted?
I have been in contact with David Lee, the ROAR Technical Director. A condensed version of our conversation is that, "ROAR wants the motor raced as it was received."
I and everyone else would read this as the motor should be raced how it came OEM
brOOd, Putnam, EA are not OEM. Trinity is!
I will post this one final time:
ROAR RULE 8.5.6.6.1 says: No modifications to the physical construction of the motor can, endbel, or armature will be permitted(e.g. adding or removing material from the armature stack!
It simply say's no removing material PERIOD. If you re-balance your removing material!
The RULES DO NOT say you can lighten an arm in stock!
If you are not going to follow ROAR for the ND races, then just say so and thats fine, but why would you follow some of the rules and not the others? If it's hard to tech or some think it's impossible then we dont need to follow those rules?
How do ya tech for different magnets in a can? Super stong rare earth magnets and others are out there, but look like a stock magnet. Is this legal then because it's to hard to tech?
Also by these standards if I get a motor that has 0 deg. of timimg can I crank it to 2 deg. the legal limit?
I am affraid your opening a big can of something!
This very simple guy's run it how it came OEM!
These are your races guy's and you can run any rules you want, but please make them VERY VERY clear and soon!
Can you please post a black and white rules for the up coming races?
If things change I am sure some of us will need to order NEW motors if things are not or can't be teched.
I am not trying to piss anyone off, I just want to know what you will be going by for rules?
Thank you for your time!
MEATWHIP
This is what the regioal director posted?
I have been in contact with David Lee, the ROAR Technical Director. A condensed version of our conversation is that, "ROAR wants the motor raced as it was received."
I and everyone else would read this as the motor should be raced how it came OEM
brOOd, Putnam, EA are not OEM. Trinity is!
I will post this one final time:
ROAR RULE 8.5.6.6.1 says: No modifications to the physical construction of the motor can, endbel, or armature will be permitted(e.g. adding or removing material from the armature stack!
It simply say's no removing material PERIOD. If you re-balance your removing material!
The RULES DO NOT say you can lighten an arm in stock!
If you are not going to follow ROAR for the ND races, then just say so and thats fine, but why would you follow some of the rules and not the others? If it's hard to tech or some think it's impossible then we dont need to follow those rules?
How do ya tech for different magnets in a can? Super stong rare earth magnets and others are out there, but look like a stock magnet. Is this legal then because it's to hard to tech?
Also by these standards if I get a motor that has 0 deg. of timimg can I crank it to 2 deg. the legal limit?
I am affraid your opening a big can of something!
This very simple guy's run it how it came OEM!
These are your races guy's and you can run any rules you want, but please make them VERY VERY clear and soon!
Can you please post a black and white rules for the up coming races?
If things change I am sure some of us will need to order NEW motors if things are not or can't be teched.
I am not trying to piss anyone off, I just want to know what you will be going by for rules?
Thank you for your time!
MEATWHIP
If David Lee has stated that EA, Brood and all the other motor tuners are not legal stock motors he is making up rules on the fly
You cannot tech between a OEM balanced arm and a tuner balance arm...they look identical.
Trinity Pro Stock and 19T are rebalanced at Trinity in the US not by TokyoMec the OEM Manufacturer? Are they illegal?
03-22-2007, 01:03 PM
#32
Tech Adept
Originally Posted by wildman
I have been in contact with David Lee, the ROAR Technical Director. A condensed version of our conversation is that, "ROAR wants the motor raced as it was received."
I and everyone else would read this as the motor should be raced how it came OEM
brOOd, Putnam, EA are not OEM. Trinity is!
I will post this one final time:
ROAR RULE 8.5.6.6.1 says: No modifications to the physical construction of the motor can, endbel, or armature will be permitted(e.g. adding or removing material from the armature stack!
It simply say's no removing material PERIOD. If you re-balance your removing material!
The RULES DO NOT say you can lighten an arm in stock!
This very simple guy's run it how it came OEM!
MEATWHIP
Brian, CONSTRUCTION is defined in the ROAR RULES on the bottom of page 34 and onto page 35.
Trinity is just the importer of the motor, they are not the OEM. Do we have to order our motors directly from EPIC to run them???
Mitch
03-22-2007, 01:08 PM
#33
Originally Posted by flyernemesis
Brian, CONSTRUCTION is defined in the ROAR RULES on the bottom of page 34 and onto page 35.
Trinity is just the importer of the motor, they are not the OEM. Do we have to order our motors directly from EPIC to run them???
Mitch
Trinity is just the importer of the motor, they are not the OEM. Do we have to order our motors directly from EPIC to run them???
Mitch
Orion is a customer of Top and Sagami not an OEM manufacturer.
CheckPoint is a customer of Yokomo and Sagami not an OEM manufacturer.
Trinity is a customer of ToKyoMec not an OEM manufacturer.
I guess EVERYTHING is illegal.
03-22-2007, 02:21 PM
#34
OK guy's this IS pointless, run and balance what you wan't. 
I'll pass the tourch of trying to it fair for all to someone else.
I'm sorry if I upset any of you on this board, but I was reading the rules as stated. I was talking OEM from Trinity for there non-pro motor, not a pro-tuned motor!
What I say has no value to any of you, so please move on. All I know is if I was the one in question about any form of bending the rules I would have been hung out to dry, no questions asked!
JUST A Buck AND QUARTER LATER!
BB
I'll pass the tourch of trying to it fair for all to someone else.
I'm sorry if I upset any of you on this board, but I was reading the rules as stated. I was talking OEM from Trinity for there non-pro motor, not a pro-tuned motor!
What I say has no value to any of you, so please move on. All I know is if I was the one in question about any form of bending the rules I would have been hung out to dry, no questions asked!
JUST A Buck AND QUARTER LATER!
BB
03-22-2007, 02:53 PM
#36
The stupid thing is the benifit from balancing the arms is so tiny that it is damn near not worth bothering with.
Most of the people that complain about this stuff always feel they are getting beat because the other guys are cheating. In reality they get beat because they just arent that good at driving or setting up thier cars.
Most of the people that complain about this stuff always feel they are getting beat because the other guys are cheating. In reality they get beat because they just arent that good at driving or setting up thier cars.
03-22-2007, 06:02 PM
#37
Adrian,
This has nothing to do with anyone getting beat by anyone. I for one have won or finished second many times and I have only lost in sedan a handful of times in this region over past two years. I have been to many national size races for on and offroad for the past 15 years. When we were at Scotty's for the Novak race he pulled and teched cars when they just looked to fast compaired to others, nothing to do with driving or setup. Trinity had to send a 100 KD Hemi 19t motors to the race by Friday or the guy's who had ran them were going to get DQ'd. Why? because this was not FAIR to other drivers that could not get them. I have seen enough races and setup enough cars to see when something is not right! I help anyone at every race I attend and will tell them everthing I am doing to my cars, motors and batt's,etc.
This is about people pushing whats legal and what's not just to go faster than the other guy in stock.
As you have posted before the top drivers in stock ARE cranking to take it to the legal limit. Is this FAIR or legal?
We need to slow the cars for stock or make a pro stock class for the fast guy's! Guy's that are 6-8 laps down from the fast guy's will lose interest over time for some or they will be more determined and stick to. We need to eliminate the loss of those few because they are what keeps this sport growing NOT catering to the FAST guys!
I cannot believe all this started over Bill asking to run brushless 13.5 at a race coming up!!!!!!!
If everyone feels that rebalancing is legal than I'll live with that, but we couldn't do it 10 years ago why is it legal now?
This CRAP has realy made think twice about building an $180,000 building for racing onroad in this region at my house! One thing that won't change is me building one the biggest and baddest offroad tracks in the US.
Each track needs to have rules IN place and FOLLOW them or the same thing WILL happen over time!
It's funny to me how brushless has SAVED oval racing, but everyone around here is so against it.
I'm trying to catch Bob for post lenth!
Brian
This has nothing to do with anyone getting beat by anyone. I for one have won or finished second many times and I have only lost in sedan a handful of times in this region over past two years. I have been to many national size races for on and offroad for the past 15 years. When we were at Scotty's for the Novak race he pulled and teched cars when they just looked to fast compaired to others, nothing to do with driving or setup. Trinity had to send a 100 KD Hemi 19t motors to the race by Friday or the guy's who had ran them were going to get DQ'd. Why? because this was not FAIR to other drivers that could not get them. I have seen enough races and setup enough cars to see when something is not right! I help anyone at every race I attend and will tell them everthing I am doing to my cars, motors and batt's,etc.
This is about people pushing whats legal and what's not just to go faster than the other guy in stock.
As you have posted before the top drivers in stock ARE cranking to take it to the legal limit. Is this FAIR or legal?
We need to slow the cars for stock or make a pro stock class for the fast guy's! Guy's that are 6-8 laps down from the fast guy's will lose interest over time for some or they will be more determined and stick to. We need to eliminate the loss of those few because they are what keeps this sport growing NOT catering to the FAST guys!
I cannot believe all this started over Bill asking to run brushless 13.5 at a race coming up!!!!!!!
If everyone feels that rebalancing is legal than I'll live with that, but we couldn't do it 10 years ago why is it legal now?
This CRAP has realy made think twice about building an $180,000 building for racing onroad in this region at my house! One thing that won't change is me building one the biggest and baddest offroad tracks in the US.
Each track needs to have rules IN place and FOLLOW them or the same thing WILL happen over time!
It's funny to me how brushless has SAVED oval racing, but everyone around here is so against it.
I'm trying to catch Bob for post lenth!
Brian
03-22-2007, 06:43 PM
#38
Tech Initiate
Seriously, how hard is it to figure out you order a bone stock motor you change brushes and or springs and run it .No major mods to it.So no you would not have to order it directly from the oem.2+2=4 Not to hard to figure out.
03-22-2007, 06:46 PM
#39
BRAPP!!!!!!!!!!!
03-22-2007, 07:36 PM
#40
Originally Posted by wildman
I cannot believe all this started over Bill asking to run brushless 13.5 at a race coming up!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by wildman
This CRAP has realy made think twice about building an $180,000 building for racing onroad in this region at my house!
Originally Posted by wildman
One thing that won't change is me building one the biggest and baddest offroad tracks in the US. Each track needs to have rules IN place and FOLLOW them or the same thing WILL happen over time! It's funny to me how brushless has SAVED oval racing, but everyone around here is so against it.
I'm trying to catch Bob for post lenth!
Brian
I'm trying to catch Bob for post lenth!
Brian
I've had to cut some posts into 4 little ones they got so long and still were to long to be submitted.I love oval racing. I participate in it, have a major title in dirtoval, and spend a lot of time building oval cars. What kills oval is how finite it is. Once you have the hang of the track, you know right away whether you can hang with the boys or not, if you have the equipment or not. If you're Always, and I mean ALWAYS, exactly 18 seconds back, or you watch a guy set a new record by 2 seconds and you gained only one. You have to make some hard decisions. Track record was 44 last year, now it's 45, and you can only muster a 41. And you do it week after week... Where's the fun in that? Track doesn't change, and neither does the view. I enjoy it though. But we have limited it to maybe 4-6 times a year.
Strain an oval car through the wall one time at around 50+ That'll dampen your spirits in a hurry. Personally, I kind of like that, actual accident damage of MAJOR proportions. makes the racing more "real" in some small way. Ever trash a car so hard in an accident that you ruined the servo, the speedo, cracked the chassis broke most of the plastic parts on the car, including the wheels, and ruined the body in about .25 seconds? I have... All you can do is hold it up like road kill with wires and crap hanging out of it and stuff falling off, and say, "WOW, look at this!!!!"
Their is interest in oval racing again because it's easier to go way to fast and make time. that's a good thing. People haven't tried it, it creates interest, guys turn out. As they once again realize, that for some unknown reason, their dead equal motor is 2-3 laps off the pace, that will settle down again.
I'm for it. we sell a lot of brushless stuff. We use a lot of brushless stuff. But I'm well aware of what I am getting into, others are not. We are all guinea pigs in the brushless world.
03-22-2007, 08:05 PM
#41
Tech Regular
Bob,
You know what makes oval racing real fun and more realistic! Each race should be by laps and not timed. This way there is no track records to discourage you and each week is a new race! Just like the oval racing that happens just about every Friday,Sat and Sunday night somewhere in the USA! Real Oval racing.
The most fun Oval racing we ever had was way back when we ran this way. Let say there way 6 guys in a Q the top two would advance up. (Then again I'm not really sure how they do this at the real races, but the bottom line was you had to complete your race and finish high. And some weeks the fast guys would break or something and end up scrambling to get to the A. It was a hoot!
And one time we had a three week 500 lap each week for a total of 1500 laps. First to 1500 wins.!! The greatest racing there was! And that was with Bolink round trackers against the old original RC10s..... and the Bolinkers won! And we ran your Mabuchi mtrs.... and we melted a couple too!
Fun!
Bill
OK. now someone post something negative out there since I posted this! Go ahead!
You know what makes oval racing real fun and more realistic! Each race should be by laps and not timed. This way there is no track records to discourage you and each week is a new race! Just like the oval racing that happens just about every Friday,Sat and Sunday night somewhere in the USA! Real Oval racing.
The most fun Oval racing we ever had was way back when we ran this way. Let say there way 6 guys in a Q the top two would advance up. (Then again I'm not really sure how they do this at the real races, but the bottom line was you had to complete your race and finish high. And some weeks the fast guys would break or something and end up scrambling to get to the A. It was a hoot!
And one time we had a three week 500 lap each week for a total of 1500 laps. First to 1500 wins.!! The greatest racing there was! And that was with Bolink round trackers against the old original RC10s..... and the Bolinkers won! And we ran your Mabuchi mtrs.... and we melted a couple too!
Fun!
Bill
OK. now someone post something negative out there since I posted this! Go ahead!
03-22-2007, 08:27 PM
#42
Tech Initiate
How about the world of wheels Bill those where a blast. motors smoking,cells puking acid. I beat Brian in 1/12 oval one year whooped him by a car link.. 
I better call him and remind him 
I better call him and remind him
03-22-2007, 08:28 PM
#43
overly fast stock motors
OK Brian, this will be my last attempt at putting this bs to rest. If you will just get over it and stop this witch hunt I will make you a deal that you could not possibly refuse, at the PKC race. If you think you can come up with a way to mark my armature so that you can identify it later after the mains than I will allow you to mark it before the qualifyers begin and you may also inspect it for whatever you want. You seem to know alot about (CRANKING ) so check it out, if it doesn't look like it is at 0 Degrees than I will get a different one that is, check it for lightening, heck I will even bring a gause meter so we can check the magnets and compare them to one of your cans and yes you can even inspect the can. Then after the mains you or a neutral party can take the car to my pit and I will remove the motor and then you may inspect it again and if you wish you may buy it for $30.00. Now this is only at your discretion if you feell the motor is too fast, but trust me it will be plenty fast!! Now one final detail, If you are proven completely wrong, that is if you can find nothing in the least wrong with the motor other than it is to fast then I will expect a VERY HUGE APPOLOGY for Me and everyone else on RC-TECH and if you wish may pay for my entry fee for stock for the inconvenience instead of the beers you promised. If anything else you wish to inspect just let me know.
Randy
Randy
03-22-2007, 09:55 PM
#45
Tech Initiate
Apoligise for what bringing something up that may or may not be going on? How does anybody know unless somebody askes the question? I know this whole thread got blown way out of proportion from where it should have been. were the motors or motors in question checked at the time all this first came up? This is not about whos right whos wrong. People on both sides said shit they probably should not have. So what are they guilty of aking questions? Bottom line is most every body in this area has been racing together for quit a few years + know each other pretty well. I would hate to see people having bad feelings toward others over all of this. But if there is some secret that nobody else knows why not say hey man this is what i did this is how to make these things really scream. Its not 20 years ago where hey I have a 1 up on this guy no way in hell I m showin him that. I am in no way shape or form in randys,mitchs,bohlmans or anybody in the a-c mains. But i do know that this is to small of hobby expecially in our area to have all this crap come between people. Lets just squash it and move on. Again this is only my opinion im an Not taking sides and I am not trying to offend anyone. Just my thoughts.....