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Xray T4 LCG conversion and more...

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Xray T4 LCG conversion and more...

Old 10-01-2017, 06:12 AM
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Default Xray T4 LCG conversion and more...

Inspired from the new T4'18 and its short shock absorbers I thought about a conversion for my T4'17 (originally T4'15) to keep it on pace with other LCG cars like the A800. The upcoming indoor season should favour a lower CG with its high grip surfaces.
As we have already seen, Xray reduced the length of some parts of the absorber, but not of the shock shaft, which causes issues if the absorber is fully compressed. Also the chance that the "old" longer shock will have a comeback for the upcoming 2018 outdoor season by the pro drivers is quite high.
So why not save a little money, use the absorber we have and install them lower... How about 6mm lower (to be better than the T4'18 )







I have already tested this conversion outdoor and indoor. And it works very nice. Even though the lower shock mounts are 6mm lower they don't make contact with curbs or make any other issues.





For the front I recommend buying two servo posts, drill holes in the suspension arms and istall them like that:



I really tried to make this a low budget conversion, but of course it will need some material, tools and a little skill...

What I built:
- one front shock tower
- one rear shock tower
- two rear lower shock mounts

Material:
- 2.2mm-3mm thick carbon fiber (depending on what I had/you have laying around) preferably an old chassis plate

Tools:
- a rotary speed tool with different inserts and self centering drills

What to do:
1. Draw the geometry of the graphite parts on the carbon/old chassis plate. Make sure all measurements are as accurate as possible!
2. Put on protective clothes, respiratory protection, safety goggles and gloves. I also use an old hairdryer.
3. Prepare your working space outside. Place the hairdryer in a way that it is between you and the rotary tool and /or arrange everything that the wind blows the dust away from you.
4. Now take a self centering 3mm drill and start to dill all holes first. Make sure you drill slow and with little pressure. You have to be very precise at this stage!
5. Put on the sanding tip and break the edges of the drill holes.
6. Install the diamond disc on the rotary tool and cut out the shape.
7. Sand away excessive material and correct the shape.
8. Clean the part, fit it on the car, if needed optimize the geometry.

Unfortunately there is one downside to this conversion:
The suspension arms have to loose quite a lot material where the spring plate is located to prevent rubbing and to to install them properly. This will not effect the handling or durability in a negative way.

That's it for the moment. Later pictures with part dimensions will follow.
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Old 10-01-2017, 07:57 AM
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Nice effort wtcc, and it will perform good...
The Awesomatix cg is very low, but my tc4 with low shocktowers and tc7.1 short shocks performed decent enough not to need another set of shorter shocks... I think there is a point where the benefits of lower cg are negligible...Most racers still have to glue the front tires on the Awesomatix the same as the xray t4 17 or tc4(short shocks) to stop traction rolling, and the corner speeds are pretty close....
The only thing I had to do on my tc4 on crc carpet is to put the thickest gold swaybar on with a 60gram ultra lightweight body....
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:18 AM
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Here now a view of the mentioned parts in their second version:

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Old 10-01-2017, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by wtcc View Post
Inspired from the new T4'18 and its short shock absorbers I thought about a conversion for my T4'17 (originally T4'15) to keep it on pace with other LCG cars like the A800. The upcoming indoor season should favour a lower CG with its high grip surfaces.
As we have already seen, Xray reduced the length of some parts of the absorber, but not of the shock shaft, which causes issues if the absorber is fully compressed. Also the chance that the "old" longer shock will have a comeback for the upcoming 2018 outdoor season by the pro drivers is quite high.
So why not save a little money, use the absorber we have and install them lower... How about 6mm lower (to be better than the T4'18 )







I have already tested this conversion outdoor and indoor. And it works very nice. Even though the lower shock mounts are 6mm lower they don't make contact with curbs or make any other issues.





For the front I recommend buying two servo posts, drill holes in the suspension arms and istall them like that:



I really tried to make this a low budget conversion, but of course it will need some material, tools and a little skill...

What I built:
- one front shock tower
- one rear shock tower
- two rear lower shock mounts

Material:
- 2.2mm-3mm thick carbon fiber (depending on what I had/you have laying around) preferably an old chassis plate

Tools:
- a rotary speed tool with different inserts and self centering drills

What to do:
1. Draw the geometry of the graphite parts on the carbon/old chassis plate. Make sure all measurements are as accurate as possible!
2. Put on protective clothes, respiratory protection, safety goggles and gloves. I also use an old hairdryer.
3. Prepare your working space outside. Place the hairdryer in a way that it is between you and the rotary tool and /or arrange everything that the wind blows the dust away from you.
4. Now take a self centering 3mm drill and start to dill all holes first. Make sure you drill slow and with little pressure. You have to be very precise at this stage!
5. Put on the sanding tip and break the edges of the drill holes.
6. Install the diamond disc on the rotary tool and cut out the shape.
7. Sand away excessive material and correct the shape.
8. Clean the part, fit it on the car, if needed optimize the geometry.

Unfortunately there is one downside to this conversion:
The suspension arms have to loose quite a lot material where the spring plate is located to prevent rubbing and to to install them properly. This will not effect the handling or durability in a negative way.

That's it for the moment. Later pictures with part dimensions will follow.
There probably is a good reason why nobody does this on 1/10th electeic cars, but why not mount the shock further out on the wishbone. This of course changes the damping but surely this can still be worked out with different springs, oil and piston?
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:25 PM
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Great work again.

If I can add my opinion in order to have better shock progressiveness do it like 1/8th on-road cars do.

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Old 10-02-2017, 02:33 AM
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This is on a 1/10th Serpent nitro car

Red RC ? RC Car News Serpent Natrix 748 200mm nitro on-road kit
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Old 10-02-2017, 03:30 AM
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Nice hook that can stick into the carpet or the edge of a curb.....

And is the difference noticeable?
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Old 10-02-2017, 07:58 AM
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I am not sure if a change of the damper angle would make sense on a proven car like the T4. My conversion just loweres the shocks. Otherwise the geometry stays the same.

The lower mounts will not hook in the carpet, because they are mounted on the arms. So if the arm moves up, the mount will move up, too. I have tested it two full days and one race on an oldschool outdoor track with high curbs, low curbs, bumpy curbs; these "hooks" never even touched the ground once or got stuck. I had the same experience indoor, too. And there I often ran over the curbs and the wooden strips that seperated the lanes, because visited the track for the first time ever.

Indoor it is clearly recognizeable that the car stays flatter and is stressing the front outside tire less. So this mod is save to drive on regular tracks and will not violate the ground clearance rule of 5mm which is mandatory on most tracks


Now for those who want to give it a try, the dimensions of the parts (units are in mm):





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Old 10-02-2017, 04:51 PM
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Otherwise the geometry stays the same.
Not so fast my good friend. You changed the angle of the shock relative to it's lower mounting point once it is in motion. Picture this please, with the shock lowered it will rotate with the arm more than converting that motion to shock travel. That's why the nitro sedans and Proto have the shocks mounted that way, to still retain the shock travel to wheel travel part right.

*edit* Here we see what happens when you skip a step in the thinking process, the entire shock was moved down so there isn't a progression change.

Last edited by 30Tooth; 10-12-2017 at 05:08 AM.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by wtcc View Post
I am not sure if a change of the damper angle would make sense on a proven car like the T4. My conversion just loweres the shocks. Otherwise the geometry stays the same.

The lower mounts will not hook in the carpet, because they are mounted on the arms. So if the arm moves up, the mount will move up, too. I have tested it two full days and one race on an oldschool outdoor track with high curbs, low curbs, bumpy curbs; these "hooks" never even touched the ground once or got stuck. I had the same experience indoor, too. And there I often ran over the curbs and the wooden strips that seperated the lanes, because visited the track for the first time ever.

[...]

The arm doesn't move up or down for that matter. Not in relation to the ground, anyway, at least as long as the wheels are on the ground. It is the car that moves up and down on the springs. If anything, the inboard end of the arm does move up and down as the car rolls.


My opinion is that sooner or later something will hook into the lowest hanging part of the car, whichever that is. Why tempt fate?

I would look into shorter shocks if there are any.
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Old 10-03-2017, 07:08 AM
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lol everyone telling him he's wrong but he's putting along and enjoying what he built. Props to WTCC for tinkering and actually enjoying the track instead of being a keyboard racer.
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Old 10-03-2017, 08:44 AM
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Props to WTCC!! This is cool!! Don't see enough home workshop mods around here Good on you for trying bud!
How are the lap times? Doesn't massively matter if they're not as good but awesome if they are better!

This is sort of what Schumacher are sort of doing with their gullwing arms on the Mi6 and the drop-mounts on the Mi5. In the world of short shocks, Schuey continues to use "standard" length shocks by dropping the lower pivot ball mounting point on the suspension arm. Of all the cars I have, my Schuey is my favourite at the moment
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Old 10-03-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by b20btec View Post
lol everyone telling him he's wrong but he's putting along and enjoying what he built. Props to WTCC for tinkering and actually enjoying the track instead of being a keyboard racer.
Experimenting is good but my question is not answered yet. The lowered links close to the ground will be an issue....

But my opinion is that this is the result of the commercial bullsh*t talk from Xray as if thos few grams lower positioned shocks is making a difference.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:59 AM
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Thanks for all the critical and positive feedback guys!

Of course the pivot point is now different. But the amount of angle change is so little that it feels the same. I can feel every angle change on the shocktower very good. And feelingwise this stayed the same.

Now again for everyone who thinks with this conversion the car constantly rips holes in the carpet or hits the curbs or something else:
Today I was on the third different track. And guess what, again the lower mounts weren't hitting anything Also who thinks I am an idiot who doesn't know what he is doing, is wrong. I am not an outstanding driver, but won several races on regional level and train with some fast guys (today for example with Dominik Greiner). Some of them have the new T4'18 and I showed them my conversion, we made race simulations together... I don't need to embarrass myself in public with something that doesn't work.

@Roelof: Your question was answered three times already. The only issue of this conversion is that the car stays flatter and carries more corner speed. But hey, you don't believe me, that is ok, too It is not like you could build this for little money yourself...

Now to something positive: The training was awesome today. Together with Florian Botzenhart (german national vize champion in the stock class) I worked on the cars setup. His T4'18 reacted pretty similar to setup changes as my car. So we constantly improved. He watched how my car behaved while cornering and was stunned how little it leaned to the outside of a corner. In the end split blocks for the front rear arm mounts and two millimeter shims under the inner camber links made a huge difference (nearly two tenth per lap). The car cuts through the corners very well and creates a lot of traction even with Volante tires. What I like the most is that I can drive over the curbs without rolling the car. Most of the times the car doesn't get unsettled at all.

Later in the week I introduce some more little mods.
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by wtcc View Post
Thanks for all the critical and positive feedback guys!

Of course the pivot point is now different. But the amount of angle change is so little that it feels the same. I can feel every angle change on the shocktower very good. And feelingwise this stayed the same.

Now again for everyone who thinks with this conversion the car constantly rips holes in the carpet or hits the curbs or something else:
Today I was on the third different track. And guess what, again the lower mounts weren't hitting anything Also who thinks I am an idiot who doesn't know what he is doing, is wrong. I am not an outstanding driver, but won several races on regional level and train with some fast guys (today for example with Dominik Greiner). Some of them have the new T4'18 and I showed them my conversion, we made race simulations together... I don't need to embarrass myself in public with something that doesn't work.

@Roelof: Your question was answered three times already. The only issue of this conversion is that the car stays flatter and carries more corner speed. But hey, you don't believe me, that is ok, too It is not like you could build this for little money yourself...

Now to something positive: The training was awesome today. Together with Florian Botzenhart (german national vize champion in the stock class) I worked on the cars setup. His T4'18 reacted pretty similar to setup changes as my car. So we constantly improved. He watched how my car behaved while cornering and was stunned how little it leaned to the outside of a corner. In the end split blocks for the front rear arm mounts and two millimeter shims under the inner camber links made a huge difference (nearly two tenth per lap). The car cuts through the corners very well and creates a lot of traction even with Volante tires. What I like the most is that I can drive over the curbs without rolling the car. Most of the times the car doesn't get unsettled at all.

Later in the week I introduce some more little mods.
It's cool what you have done. The top Xray team drivers here in the UK actually ran the T3 shocks with the Reflex towers on some of our really bumpy outdoor tracks on the 17 car, this also helps with riding the kerbs.
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