256LikesTamiya TRF419
10-13-2019 | 10:24 AM
#4471
They could have retain the design of 418 arms but i guess for durability reason, the hollowed plastic was filled. that aluminum insert is a nice touch though. some of my old arms are kinda stripped and this could save us a lot of arms.
Also, that's one beefy chub. It would be better if it is a direct replacement for older chubs though. Btw, why Tamiya changed 416's chub design? Seems like DCJ has no problem and I didn't break them at all.
Also, that's one beefy chub. It would be better if it is a direct replacement for older chubs though. Btw, why Tamiya changed 416's chub design? Seems like DCJ has no problem and I didn't break them at all.
10-13-2019 | 09:28 PM
#4472
Tech Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 54
So I was able to get my hands on some TRF420 spare parts and the TRF419 Suspension Upgrade Set that came out already...
51644 TRF420 Bumper Parts
I was hoping that the new bumper set would be compatible with the TRF419 to replace the soft plastic parts that are prone to bending and stripping, but as you can see Tamiya decided to change the bolt pattern slightly to make it exclusive to the TRF420
.
The material is much more stiffer than the previous 51253 bumper set, similar or same as what is used on the recent M07/M08 etc. chassis.
Each of the rear body posts are now fixed by two screws, which provides better fixing compared to having the plastic stud that allows the post to shift around.
Flipping the posts around would shift the body position by +/- 2mm fore/aft.
51642 TRF420 Front Spool
The outdrives are 7-digit special order parts that is not available so I can't fit it on my TRF419XR yet.
Theres a lip on the pulley side that retains the flange after it snaps on. It seems to hold on the flange quite well, although some superglue may provide a peace of mind.
Not sure of the weight savings without the aluminum outdrives.
51643 TRF420 Gear Diff Case Set
In terms of the TRF420 diff assembly, the only parts updated is the case and pulley. All internals and outdrives, including the gasket are from the TRF419.
There are no longer notches on the case, the lid can be attached in any direction. The walls seem thinner so the oil capacity might be higher, but I don't have a dry TRF419 case to compare. They also feel lighter than the old casing.
The material is the same as the new spool which seems to have higher fiber content than the old casings.
The bushing housing is now hollow, possibly for weight reduction.
54886 TRF419 Suspension Upgrade Set
It's nice that Tamiya came out with this upgrade set for the TRF419 as they've been releasing many updates in the past year. As it seems many parts will be compatible with the TRF419XR, I have no plans to get the TRF420 yet.
All hardware and parts included in the package.
Rear hubs are now marked "C". I think the main difference here is the 3mm outboard hinge pins. I didn't notice much difference in bearing attachment which is advertised to be more precise than previous. The ball stud height is the same as the 419 hubs.
Steering knuckles. As expected the carbon fiber steering arm plates are not included, and is a 7-digit part 19803221.
The area around the bottom kingpin screw is now trimmed to avoid contact with the driveshafts.
For the carbon plastic arms I was expecting more of a snug fit on the knuckle, without the screw it wiggles around slightly.
C-Hubs, one of the most anticipated upgrades from this set.
They are much more beefier. All along the lower L section of the C-hub where the old parts usually crack are now 2mm thicker (TRF418 ~4mm thick, TRF420 ~6mm thick). Thickness of material around the top kingpin is unchanged.
The TRF418 / TRF420 steering knuckles have the same distance between the kingpin flats, so the old parts should be compatible with the new C-hubs.
That annoying spacer between the flanged pipe and the knuckle top is now eliminated, and the top/bottom flanged pipes are now the same 3.1 x 4.5mm.
This view of the bottom kingpin hole shows the significant increase in material thickness.
Suspension Arms.
The damper mount bushing / inserts included are "A-C" which provides the inner and outermost positions. To get the same mounting position as the TRF419 arms one would need the optional "B" inserts for the center position.
One gripe I have with the TRF suspension arms are the moulded ball heads for the anti-roll bars, which Tamiya has decided to maintain not only on the front, but to introduce them on the rear arms as well.
On the old 418/419 front arms that has the small moulded 4mm balls, the ball ends / adjusters were always too tight and required a lot of trimming / reaming to get them smooth. Personally I much prefer the separately attached ball studs which although may have slight play but are at least smooth and doesn't require such preparation work.
The moulded balls on the TRF420 although now updated to 5mm size, has the same fitment issues. Worse so, on the front arms there is now a bridge that makes it impossible to sand the ball smaller, and is very difficult for attaching and removing the ball ends. it is understandable that the bridge is required for extra bracing due to the now different position of the moulded balls, and space would be tight for a screw-on ball stud, but a solution using grub screw and hex balls should have been possible. Or better, MAKE THE FITMENT RIGHT!
On the rear arms they have now introduced the same moulded balls, which in addition to having the same issues above, it is no longer possible to adjust the position/angle of the anti-roll bar links with spacers after altering the wheelbase.
Although this is not a part that is frequently worked on, how did anyone at Tamiya not notice these fitment issues? I just don't get it
.
The photo below shows how tight the ball ends are, without prep work they would bind up the suspension movement big time.
The completed suspension arm assemblies.
The rear hubs no longer have the two 0.5mm spacers attaching on the arms, but required a bit of sanding for smooth action.
Some sanding on the knuckles was also needed for smooth steering action on the C-hubs.
Attachment between C-hub / front arms required no sanding but the outer hinge pin holes on the arms seem to be a bit too large causing slight play.
On the front I used the older style aluminum roll bar attachments as I prefer them over the new plastic pieces for easier adjustment and tightening of the link angle.
The new front arms has same geometry as previous so I kept the 419XR kit wheelbase spacers.
The new rear arms have +3mm offset towards the rear, so on the RF suspension mounts I used 0.5mm spacers instead of the TRF419XR kit 3mm to start. The plastic roll bar holders are needed here with the new arms at this wheelbase. Using the old style holders would leave the links at a steep angle, which as mentioned above cannot be compensated by spacers on the lower ball stud.
The spring perches on the rear dampers no longer come in contact with the lower arms and has a lot of clearance.
51644 TRF420 Bumper Parts
I was hoping that the new bumper set would be compatible with the TRF419 to replace the soft plastic parts that are prone to bending and stripping, but as you can see Tamiya decided to change the bolt pattern slightly to make it exclusive to the TRF420
.The material is much more stiffer than the previous 51253 bumper set, similar or same as what is used on the recent M07/M08 etc. chassis.
Each of the rear body posts are now fixed by two screws, which provides better fixing compared to having the plastic stud that allows the post to shift around.
Flipping the posts around would shift the body position by +/- 2mm fore/aft.
51642 TRF420 Front Spool
The outdrives are 7-digit special order parts that is not available so I can't fit it on my TRF419XR yet.
Theres a lip on the pulley side that retains the flange after it snaps on. It seems to hold on the flange quite well, although some superglue may provide a peace of mind.
Not sure of the weight savings without the aluminum outdrives.
51643 TRF420 Gear Diff Case Set
In terms of the TRF420 diff assembly, the only parts updated is the case and pulley. All internals and outdrives, including the gasket are from the TRF419.
There are no longer notches on the case, the lid can be attached in any direction. The walls seem thinner so the oil capacity might be higher, but I don't have a dry TRF419 case to compare. They also feel lighter than the old casing.
The material is the same as the new spool which seems to have higher fiber content than the old casings.
The bushing housing is now hollow, possibly for weight reduction.
54886 TRF419 Suspension Upgrade Set
It's nice that Tamiya came out with this upgrade set for the TRF419 as they've been releasing many updates in the past year. As it seems many parts will be compatible with the TRF419XR, I have no plans to get the TRF420 yet.
All hardware and parts included in the package.
Rear hubs are now marked "C". I think the main difference here is the 3mm outboard hinge pins. I didn't notice much difference in bearing attachment which is advertised to be more precise than previous. The ball stud height is the same as the 419 hubs.
Steering knuckles. As expected the carbon fiber steering arm plates are not included, and is a 7-digit part 19803221.
The area around the bottom kingpin screw is now trimmed to avoid contact with the driveshafts.
For the carbon plastic arms I was expecting more of a snug fit on the knuckle, without the screw it wiggles around slightly.
C-Hubs, one of the most anticipated upgrades from this set.
They are much more beefier. All along the lower L section of the C-hub where the old parts usually crack are now 2mm thicker (TRF418 ~4mm thick, TRF420 ~6mm thick). Thickness of material around the top kingpin is unchanged.
The TRF418 / TRF420 steering knuckles have the same distance between the kingpin flats, so the old parts should be compatible with the new C-hubs.
That annoying spacer between the flanged pipe and the knuckle top is now eliminated, and the top/bottom flanged pipes are now the same 3.1 x 4.5mm.
This view of the bottom kingpin hole shows the significant increase in material thickness.
Suspension Arms.
The damper mount bushing / inserts included are "A-C" which provides the inner and outermost positions. To get the same mounting position as the TRF419 arms one would need the optional "B" inserts for the center position.
One gripe I have with the TRF suspension arms are the moulded ball heads for the anti-roll bars, which Tamiya has decided to maintain not only on the front, but to introduce them on the rear arms as well
.On the old 418/419 front arms that has the small moulded 4mm balls, the ball ends / adjusters were always too tight and required a lot of trimming / reaming to get them smooth. Personally I much prefer the separately attached ball studs which although may have slight play but are at least smooth and doesn't require such preparation work.
The moulded balls on the TRF420 although now updated to 5mm size, has the same fitment issues. Worse so, on the front arms there is now a bridge that makes it impossible to sand the ball smaller, and is very difficult for attaching and removing the ball ends. it is understandable that the bridge is required for extra bracing due to the now different position of the moulded balls, and space would be tight for a screw-on ball stud, but a solution using grub screw and hex balls should have been possible. Or better, MAKE THE FITMENT RIGHT!
On the rear arms they have now introduced the same moulded balls, which in addition to having the same issues above, it is no longer possible to adjust the position/angle of the anti-roll bar links with spacers after altering the wheelbase.
Although this is not a part that is frequently worked on, how did anyone at Tamiya not notice these fitment issues? I just don't get it
.The photo below shows how tight the ball ends are, without prep work they would bind up the suspension movement big time.
The completed suspension arm assemblies.
The rear hubs no longer have the two 0.5mm spacers attaching on the arms, but required a bit of sanding for smooth action.
Some sanding on the knuckles was also needed for smooth steering action on the C-hubs.
Attachment between C-hub / front arms required no sanding but the outer hinge pin holes on the arms seem to be a bit too large causing slight play.
On the front I used the older style aluminum roll bar attachments as I prefer them over the new plastic pieces for easier adjustment and tightening of the link angle.
The new front arms has same geometry as previous so I kept the 419XR kit wheelbase spacers.
The new rear arms have +3mm offset towards the rear, so on the RF suspension mounts I used 0.5mm spacers instead of the TRF419XR kit 3mm to start. The plastic roll bar holders are needed here with the new arms at this wheelbase. Using the old style holders would leave the links at a steep angle, which as mentioned above cannot be compensated by spacers on the lower ball stud.
The spring perches on the rear dampers no longer come in contact with the lower arms and has a lot of clearance.
10-13-2019 | 10:53 PM
#4474
I dont really know if I should like or hate the new suspension...
At the moment I would think to skip the TRF420 and wait for a refined X or XR.
Tamiya never get it right with the stabilizer links. New an old designs are both a design flaw, especially front. And throwing away my brandnew aluminium rear uprights is not acceptable. So I will not upgrade my 419XR.
BTW: where did you got the upgrade set?
At the moment I would think to skip the TRF420 and wait for a refined X or XR.
Tamiya never get it right with the stabilizer links. New an old designs are both a design flaw, especially front. And throwing away my brandnew aluminium rear uprights is not acceptable. So I will not upgrade my 419XR.
BTW: where did you got the upgrade set?
10-13-2019 | 11:51 PM
#4475
Tech Elite
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,650
From: Bristol, UK
Yes, very odd that Tamiya would get the dimension wrong on the ball and choose to put into production with a note advising shaving them down when thay can't be reached!
I've always squeezed the cups with pliers once assembled to loosen them off, works after a few squeezes normally.
As far as the suspension upgrade goes, looks like the rear suspension is tricky to make reverse compatible (and would not work at all on my FF-04), but it looks like careful selection of front suspension parts could give you the (theoretically) more duarable 420 c-hubs.
- Front arms
- damper mount insert
- outer hinge pin
- new top-hat spacers
- C hub
Although I've only broken 3 c-hubs in a fair amount of racing indoors - less than one a year. 416 hubs on a 418 and FF04.
I've always squeezed the cups with pliers once assembled to loosen them off, works after a few squeezes normally.
As far as the suspension upgrade goes, looks like the rear suspension is tricky to make reverse compatible (and would not work at all on my FF-04), but it looks like careful selection of front suspension parts could give you the (theoretically) more duarable 420 c-hubs.
- Front arms
- damper mount insert
- outer hinge pin
- new top-hat spacers
- C hub
Although I've only broken 3 c-hubs in a fair amount of racing indoors - less than one a year. 416 hubs on a 418 and FF04.
10-14-2019 | 01:59 AM
#4476
Squeezing the adjusters would work on the older material that is softer, although I still prefer reaming them out so they're not scratched by the teeth of the pliers.
But the new adjusters are made of a much stiffer fiber reinforced material and no amount of squeezing would deform them enough to make it smooth. Even by reaming I had to remove so much material on both sides of the adjusters that it barely snaps on to the ball. It comes off with a light twist of fingers. The good thing is that it normally doesn't take much impact so should stay on well.
But the new adjusters are made of a much stiffer fiber reinforced material and no amount of squeezing would deform them enough to make it smooth. Even by reaming I had to remove so much material on both sides of the adjusters that it barely snaps on to the ball. It comes off with a light twist of fingers. The good thing is that it normally doesn't take much impact so should stay on well.
10-23-2019 | 05:43 PM
#4477
Tech Adept
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 208
With some manufacturers going back to long arm suspension, has anyone tried playing around with the old 415 reversible suspension arms on the newer cars? They would definitely fit, and experimenting will be way easier with the new adjustable suspension blocks
11-03-2019 | 01:22 PM
#4478
Tech Regular
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 314
Thanks for sharing all those part numbers.
Will the 420 diff case be a straight swap? Will it fit a 419?
I need a new diff as my outdirves are knackered, so for the price I might aswel buy a full diff when the part is available.
Will the 420 diff case be a straight swap? Will it fit a 419?
I need a new diff as my outdirves are knackered, so for the price I might aswel buy a full diff when the part is available.
11-03-2019 | 09:47 PM
#4480
I also must say the new suspension parts are a big improvement in terms of durability, only broke one chub and knuckle from clipping the wooden curb on the end of the straightaway so far. Due to the thickening of material it now cracks near the top of the hub where the thickness is unchanged.
11-04-2019 | 04:46 AM
#4481
Tech Regular
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 314
Brill. Where are people getting them from? I can't find any stock.
Tbh I don't have any durability issies anyway since I started to use ta05 shiny black plastic c hubs.
I only ever change the knuckles due to the threads becoming not existant and the screws falling out the bottom mid race
Tbh I don't have any durability issies anyway since I started to use ta05 shiny black plastic c hubs.
I only ever change the knuckles due to the threads becoming not existant and the screws falling out the bottom mid race
11-12-2019 | 09:50 AM
#4482
Last night, I switched from the WS chassis to the XR aluminium chassis. I also installed the new motor mount from the XR chassis. I ran into a slight problem with the pulley, The diameter of the new shaft was too large for the pulley half (MA25). Pulley was 4.92 mm and new shaft is 4.97.
The old shaft cleared this with ease since it was smaller in diameter. I was hesitant to bore it out so I did some research and no one has reported an issue. So in the end, I opened it up to 5.5 mm to clear the shaft.
Anyone else have this issue?
11-13-2019 | 12:36 AM
#4483
Tech Adept
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 154
From: The Netherlands
Last night, I switched from the WS chassis to the XR aluminium chassis. I also installed the new motor mount from the XR chassis. I ran into a slight problem with the pulley, The diameter of the new shaft was too large for the pulley half (MA25). Pulley was 4.92 mm and new shaft is 4.97.
The old shaft cleared this with ease since it was smaller in diameter. I was hesitant to bore it out so I did some research and no one has reported an issue. So in the end, I opened it up to 5.5 mm to clear the shaft.
Anyone else have this issue?
Regards Robert
11-19-2019 | 01:48 PM
#4484
Tech Regular
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 314
The TRF420 / TRF 419 diff cases are interchangeable. I have been running the new diff in my 419XR and it is very smooth with virtually no leaks (slight seepage on one outdrive, only noticeable when the bearings are off) at around 30 runs so far. I am using the clear Axon orings.
I also must say the new suspension parts are a big improvement in terms of durability, only broke one chub and knuckle from clipping the wooden curb on the end of the straightaway so far. Due to the thickening of material it now cracks near the top of the hub where the thickness is unchanged.
I also must say the new suspension parts are a big improvement in terms of durability, only broke one chub and knuckle from clipping the wooden curb on the end of the straightaway so far. Due to the thickening of material it now cracks near the top of the hub where the thickness is unchanged.
The diff came with 4 shims, but the instructions only picture using 2 shims.
How many are actually required for fitting?
