Proposed R.O.A.R. rules change
05-25-2011, 01:04 PM
#616
Ilike it
05-25-2011, 01:09 PM
#617
Sunday one of the guys who had stopped racing with us came back out for the first time in a while to race a blinky class. He had been racing offroad. He told me that all the speedo issues turned him off, but since there was a blinky class, he was really happy and he had a good time.
He's an average racer who just wants to get out there and race. Maybe he's never going to win anything big, but he keeps the track's doors open.
He's an average racer who just wants to get out there and race. Maybe he's never going to win anything big, but he keeps the track's doors open.
05-25-2011, 01:29 PM
#618
Not sure I totally agree with you. At the Oval race a few weeks before the one you're referring to, Josh sold every new oval chassis he brought with him at $500 a pop. If the hobby is fun, people will spend the money. Look no further than someone buying a new T3 '11 to run VTA. The bottom line is if the cost outweighs the fun factor, people will quit. Doesn't matter what sport or hobby it is.
05-25-2011, 05:39 PM
#619
Not sure I totally agree with you. At the Oval race a few weeks before the one you're referring to, Josh sold every new oval chassis he brought with him at $500 a pop. If the hobby is fun, people will spend the money. Look no further than someone buying a new T3 '11 to run VTA. The bottom line is if the cost outweighs the fun factor, people will quit. Doesn't matter what sport or hobby it is.
05-25-2011, 07:20 PM
#620
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
Oval guys do spend on technology because oval racing is 75-90% the car and how it is setup. Wayne was only .2 off the fastest car and that may as well have been a mile. Road course racing still requires a good car and setup but the driver now is over 50% of the performance. That shows up well when I hand my car to Wayne and he runs .4 faster than my best and says he can't drive the car.
An average Saturday night at Classic used to be 70 racers for the oval and special race over 150. I would have been right in the thick of it. Walt blamed the new brushless motors for the fall.
Look at the sedan classes now. Since the price of those cars has climbed the car count has dwindled. The NORCAR group used to get 15 to 20 of the stock T/C racers just a few years ago. That was when we ran in the gym in Bratenhal, that track was pretty bad but we had fun.
I don't think anything can be done about the chassis costs in sedan as you have to pay for that technology. But the other factors such as speedos, motors, tires and batteries can be controlled and I feel they should be. That is my opinion and it is based on having been around awhile.
An average Saturday night at Classic used to be 70 racers for the oval and special race over 150. I would have been right in the thick of it. Walt blamed the new brushless motors for the fall.
Look at the sedan classes now. Since the price of those cars has climbed the car count has dwindled. The NORCAR group used to get 15 to 20 of the stock T/C racers just a few years ago. That was when we ran in the gym in Bratenhal, that track was pretty bad but we had fun.
I don't think anything can be done about the chassis costs in sedan as you have to pay for that technology. But the other factors such as speedos, motors, tires and batteries can be controlled and I feel they should be. That is my opinion and it is based on having been around awhile.
05-25-2011, 07:35 PM
#621
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
Joe:
I do agree with you that if the cost outweighs the fun factor then they will quit.
I have seen to many racers try to keep up with the Jones's and end up quitting because they ran out of money. Our local dirt racing scene is a revolving door in the lower classes and on any weekend there will be a couple race cars for sale because they bought the latest. A few deals like that then you don't see them anymore. I talk to them and ask them why they do that and not a one of them can give me a good answer other than they saw it in a magazine and it was great there. Many racers will just spend because they think it will automatically bring success. We at the Gate are a much smarter group. We are experienced, educated for the most part and we place a value on our fun. It is to bad that it isn't the norm. That is why I feel that the organizations need to control the hobby and why I am speaking up on this thread.
I do agree with you that if the cost outweighs the fun factor then they will quit.
I have seen to many racers try to keep up with the Jones's and end up quitting because they ran out of money. Our local dirt racing scene is a revolving door in the lower classes and on any weekend there will be a couple race cars for sale because they bought the latest. A few deals like that then you don't see them anymore. I talk to them and ask them why they do that and not a one of them can give me a good answer other than they saw it in a magazine and it was great there. Many racers will just spend because they think it will automatically bring success. We at the Gate are a much smarter group. We are experienced, educated for the most part and we place a value on our fun. It is to bad that it isn't the norm. That is why I feel that the organizations need to control the hobby and why I am speaking up on this thread.
05-25-2011, 07:53 PM
#622
And ROAR's proposed changes are going to cause virtually everyone except some USVTA racers to go out and spend even more to buy a less capable ESC. What percentage of electric on-road racers own an ESC that isn't timing advance/boost capable? Even though they just about all have "blinky" mode, next year we can't use them at ROAR events.
Their "logic" boggles the mind. I'm looking forward to the flood of new racers that are waiting on the sidelines for these new ROAR rules...
Their "logic" boggles the mind. I'm looking forward to the flood of new racers that are waiting on the sidelines for these new ROAR rules...
05-25-2011, 08:24 PM
#623
First off, awesome to see some of the "new blood" at the Gate involved in this, Ron is not "new blood" will call him reborn...
Anyway, I am to think that ROAR is just looking out for the future of the Hobby/sport. Anyone who knows what is going on understands that brushless motors and speedos with all the programable features is 1000% above the old system. For that the industry is heading in the right direction. What a "spec" speedo with no programable features will bring is a way to ease try novice's into the sport. One less thing to wory about, test, and buy. With the programable stuff, we are well past the "speedo of the month" anyone that understands the software within the speedo they run is just as fast as anyother brand, (castle vs tekin and so on.) The speedo adjustments are the future, the advantages are endless, ROAR is looking for a way to seperate those who want/need/understand all the features, and those who do not. Great idea, sure some people will be effected by this, but it will be their choice to comply, or move up in class. I forsee, and hope that the "spec" speedo will be for the tru novice stock classes, and everything else will remain the same. The nice part is with the programable units you the racer can move around class to class at your own will, just like in brushed motor days. 17.5 non boosted is 19turn or mod speeds in brushed days, 13.5 non boosted is mod, and the mod motors stuff is out of control. Less people run mod today because there is a handfull of people that can use it. The bigest issue is due to the fact we run on small layouts, where we need to regulate the speeds to help drivers tune their skills at the wheel. Basicly regardless of the argument, it is the right move. ROAR needs to control more of this section of the rule book, and hold to it. Nobody is winning races because their wing is above the lid of the body. Those sections are well done, now we are at a point where the tecnology is pointing us in one direction, and the majorty of the people doing this are facing the other way. To me this is part of the seperation from stock to mod, they have started this with the 17.5 non boosted and 13.5 non boosted classes. (stock and 19turn of days of old) 13.5 will be the mix class of mod drivers and stock drivers, and with the addition of a "Spec Stock" class for tru novices, I think we will have what people are looking for.
Regardless of what happens people will find a reason to complan. We are at a time in the history of our sport that is in transion, and due to the direction it is heading we might be running into more transition more often. We had years of the same rules, no real motor changes, speedo changes, and batteries. Every year we delt with the new hot sticks, or the new motor for the year. Now it's just the speedo. It's one part of the puzzle, infact nothing has changed at all. ROAR is just looking to make it better.
People who want to race, will, tell me the rules and lets go. People who don't will go find something else to do. The downturn in people racing on road is not just the "speedo" wars. It's everything, foam to rubber, brushless, speedos, lipos, all the diffrent sedan bodies, and the tires. Off road has widened it's base with the customer 1000% more than onroad. It's sexier, it appeals to more people. The companies have setup kits that are ready to run, race ready, and the tracks have followed suit.
With out control, watch SC truck become Onroad sedan racing...it is the direction it is heading. People running those will want to change things, make new parts and upgrade, new classes and so on. It's the path we have been down, if anything it shows that we never learn.
Anyway, I am to think that ROAR is just looking out for the future of the Hobby/sport. Anyone who knows what is going on understands that brushless motors and speedos with all the programable features is 1000% above the old system. For that the industry is heading in the right direction. What a "spec" speedo with no programable features will bring is a way to ease try novice's into the sport. One less thing to wory about, test, and buy. With the programable stuff, we are well past the "speedo of the month" anyone that understands the software within the speedo they run is just as fast as anyother brand, (castle vs tekin and so on.) The speedo adjustments are the future, the advantages are endless, ROAR is looking for a way to seperate those who want/need/understand all the features, and those who do not. Great idea, sure some people will be effected by this, but it will be their choice to comply, or move up in class. I forsee, and hope that the "spec" speedo will be for the tru novice stock classes, and everything else will remain the same. The nice part is with the programable units you the racer can move around class to class at your own will, just like in brushed motor days. 17.5 non boosted is 19turn or mod speeds in brushed days, 13.5 non boosted is mod, and the mod motors stuff is out of control. Less people run mod today because there is a handfull of people that can use it. The bigest issue is due to the fact we run on small layouts, where we need to regulate the speeds to help drivers tune their skills at the wheel. Basicly regardless of the argument, it is the right move. ROAR needs to control more of this section of the rule book, and hold to it. Nobody is winning races because their wing is above the lid of the body. Those sections are well done, now we are at a point where the tecnology is pointing us in one direction, and the majorty of the people doing this are facing the other way. To me this is part of the seperation from stock to mod, they have started this with the 17.5 non boosted and 13.5 non boosted classes. (stock and 19turn of days of old) 13.5 will be the mix class of mod drivers and stock drivers, and with the addition of a "Spec Stock" class for tru novices, I think we will have what people are looking for.
Regardless of what happens people will find a reason to complan. We are at a time in the history of our sport that is in transion, and due to the direction it is heading we might be running into more transition more often. We had years of the same rules, no real motor changes, speedo changes, and batteries. Every year we delt with the new hot sticks, or the new motor for the year. Now it's just the speedo. It's one part of the puzzle, infact nothing has changed at all. ROAR is just looking to make it better.
People who want to race, will, tell me the rules and lets go. People who don't will go find something else to do. The downturn in people racing on road is not just the "speedo" wars. It's everything, foam to rubber, brushless, speedos, lipos, all the diffrent sedan bodies, and the tires. Off road has widened it's base with the customer 1000% more than onroad. It's sexier, it appeals to more people. The companies have setup kits that are ready to run, race ready, and the tracks have followed suit.
With out control, watch SC truck become Onroad sedan racing...it is the direction it is heading. People running those will want to change things, make new parts and upgrade, new classes and so on. It's the path we have been down, if anything it shows that we never learn.
05-25-2011, 08:43 PM
#624
Our local dirt racing scene is a revolving door in the lower classes and on any weekend there will be a couple race cars for sale because they bought the latest. I talk to them and ask them why they do that and not a one of them can give me a good answer other than they saw it in a magazine and it was great there. Many racers will just spend because they think it will automatically bring success.. .
Being able to purchase things in nice condition at a deep discount is what keeps me in the game. I'm sure plenty others as well. Sounds like those that spend big $$$ and bail out just aren't having fun unless they are winning. To me "winning" is going out and having a blast. Finishing well is just a bonus
05-25-2011, 09:08 PM
#625
What a "spec" speedo with no programable features will bring is a way to ease try novice's into the sport. One less thing to wory about, test, and buy. I forsee, and hope that the "spec" speedo will be for the tru novice stock classes, and everything else will remain the same.
Maybe the big independent races will use some common sense. I hope that the Midwest Grand Slam will allow blinky ESCs, just like they did for VTA class last year. I didn't see any controversy in that class.
This shows that common sense is anything but common.
05-26-2011, 04:38 AM
#626
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
I agree that being forced to buy new speed controls is a problem but because of the issues with tech I believe they have to do it. I know I would have to replace two of them and the market for the old ones will be close to nil. I wonder how the manufacturers will respond. It would seem that they could write code to lock out certain programmability. But why would they be interested in that as they could sell new speed controls instead.
We will adapt though because we are racers. Right now there aren't many of us to do so.
We will adapt though because we are racers. Right now there aren't many of us to do so.
05-26-2011, 04:46 AM
#627
This. I'm all for this for beginners, but why force virtually everyone else to take a giant step backwards by banning all programmable ESCs that have blinky mode? Why dumb down all classes and force everyone to buy yet another ESC to go backwards? There won't be a market for used blinky mode ESCs since they will all be made illegal overnight. I'd better redirect a decade's worth of ROAR memberships to buy all new ESCs.
Maybe the big independent races will use some common sense. I hope that the Midwest Grand Slam will allow blinky ESCs, just like they did for VTA class last year. I didn't see any controversy in that class.
This shows that common sense is anything but common.
Maybe the big independent races will use some common sense. I hope that the Midwest Grand Slam will allow blinky ESCs, just like they did for VTA class last year. I didn't see any controversy in that class.
This shows that common sense is anything but common.
05-26-2011, 05:07 AM
#628
There are a few points that seem to give little or no answer in r/c IMO.
Do ROAR:
1) change the class regulations with regards to ESC and expect racers to buy new equipment if they dont already own it (Blinky ESC or a different solution)...
or
2) Race with what classes already exist and people complain.
It seems to me that ROAR are damned if they do, damned if they don't...
What gives?
At the moment, if there IS a slower class being considered for ROAR events (21.5 or 25.5 to deter experienced racers?), the main thing is to decide what ESC type is allowed for it.
But then if it is decided it must be NO timing, how is no timing enforced?
Can it even be enforced and will the racers feel comfortable with how it will be enforced?
Maybe ROAR are not considering a "slow" /er class such as this, Idk...
Do ROAR:
1) change the class regulations with regards to ESC and expect racers to buy new equipment if they dont already own it (Blinky ESC or a different solution)...
or
2) Race with what classes already exist and people complain.
It seems to me that ROAR are damned if they do, damned if they don't...
What gives?
At the moment, if there IS a slower class being considered for ROAR events (21.5 or 25.5 to deter experienced racers?), the main thing is to decide what ESC type is allowed for it.
But then if it is decided it must be NO timing, how is no timing enforced?
Can it even be enforced and will the racers feel comfortable with how it will be enforced?
Maybe ROAR are not considering a "slow" /er class such as this, Idk...
05-26-2011, 05:12 AM
#629
In the interests of keeping the new blood coming to a ROAR event and feeling that they have acheived something when they do well (IF this is the direction ROAR want to achieve), then you need to keep the speed down and reduce tyre wear with lower speeds/torque if possible (a bonus).
No one likes buying lots of tyres, or lots of anything tbh. Escpecially the novices...
Idk if 25.5 or 21.5 would even be appealing to a novice, as my viewpoint is from someone who has raced for approx 17 years... lol.
No one likes buying lots of tyres, or lots of anything tbh. Escpecially the novices...
Idk if 25.5 or 21.5 would even be appealing to a novice, as my viewpoint is from someone who has raced for approx 17 years... lol.
05-26-2011, 11:47 AM
#630
We get to run blinky speedo's for at least one more year at the Champs. And I'm still leaning towards last year's Roadcourse classes. I thought that Spec TC, 17.5 Open ESC TC, and Mod were totally appropriate. 12th scale was PERFECT and enjoyably blinky free.........