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Old 01-11-2011, 09:08 AM   #1
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Default Proposed R.O.A.R. rules change

FYI Copied from a post by Steve Pond:
Hello Gentlemen. Thank you for registering and giving us your feedback. Just to give you a little background on how the classes for this year's race came about...

The need to do something with the stock class was both evident by our own observations, and by the high volume of feedback that we receive from affiliated tracks and members. The feedback from the majority of the aforementioned was consistently that local tracks have lost a lot of racers, and many point to the escalating costs and speeds in the stock or spec classes as the primary reason for much of that loss.

The more open nature of the rules until this point made sense because brushless stock and spec racing were trying to seek their own level with motors, batteries, and most recently with the ESCs. The motors chosen at the various levels of competition seemed to be working out well for a period of time, but the advent of dynamic timing ESCs combined with high output batteries have escalated the performance WELL beyond what should be considered normal and acceptable for these classes. It takes a good driver, but the speeds in the stock and spec classes were rivaling that of the modified class in some cases. I like the horsepower and technology that the dynamic timing speedos bring to the market, but I also understand, like most experienced racers and track owners, that there are consequences to making the barriers to entry so high and costly. Keep in mind that this is the only entry point into ROAR racing that exists - the class that's supposed to have the more moderate speeds and costs to allow racers to develop their skills. Today's newcomer to the stock class, apart from the investment in the chassis and radio gear, also face the prospect of a series of expensive ESCs and countless days at the track manipulating the profile of the speedo (requiring a laptop computer) and then they can start worrying about the chassis set-up. It's a daunting proposition for an aspiring racer.

In spite of one's own personal preferences, I at least hope that experienced racers will conceded that the developments in the stock class has made the amount of time and investment needed to be competitive MUCH greater over the last few years. Yes, brushed motor racing has its own costs and learning curves, but the promise of brushless and lipo technology to reduce the cost and complexity has been mostly compromised by the latest developments. We've all seen the countless number of ESCs that racers have burned through because the promise of better performance, or at least the need to stay competitive. This is evident at some tracks more than others, and it's great that some clubs and classes haven't seen the negative effects as much as others, but the potential for its impact means that it's possible for it to get to a harmful level.

The changes that ROAR is proposing are not without considerable thought and consultation with a lot of racers, track owners and manufacturers not to mention the tireless efforts of the staff that has massive amounts of racing experience and wisdom when it comes to understanding the implications of its decisions. Nobody is expecting silent compliance because change and the uncertainty that it brings can be more uncomfortable than "the devil you know." All we're asking is to give it a chance. Nothing is chiseled into stone so we can make adjustments if needed.

There are a lot of other items in discussion for a more complete 2012 spec that will address the concerns that some of you have voiced, such as motors with fixed timing and a couple other provisions to ensure fair competition without cranking in excessive timing. The full spec should be announced by the end of the month.

Thanks for your support, even if it's reluctant. Once you give it a chance, I'm hopeful that even though it's different, you'll be spend less time and money on your racing effort and enjoying much tighter, more competitive racing with higher numbers of participants.
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:10 AM   #2
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additional comments by Steve Pond:
Our decision doesn't really have much to do with Tekin, other than they're one of many manufacturers that have made speedos with the dynamic timing features. It's not that the dynamic timing is of "no value" (you're putting words in our mouth), they're too complex and require too much expense and investment of time to sort them out for the typical stock class racer. This is the reason that it will be fazed out by 2012. The 2011 season will still allow the use of these speedos, but they HAVE to be running the Zero Timing mode. If you have a Tekin RS speedo, it needs to have the 212 software. The 208 software is not legal.

We are, however, working on a specification for the 2012 season that will not allow programmable speedos in the stock class. Of course they can still be used in the modified class. We delayed the move to give the racers, shops and manufacturers plenty of time to decide what to do with existing inventory. Yes, for some racers that insist on staying in stock class, this will be a cost for them. It's the best solution we could arrive at that brings stock class racing back to an somewhat approachable level, and gives everyone a sufficient amount of time to respond to the change.

This by no means ALL of the posts,the rest can be found on the R.O.A.R. forum.
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:19 AM   #3
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I'm not a ROAR member. I was, at one point continuously throughout the 90s and early 2000s, but not currently.

Now that the genie it out of the bottle........they're gonna go backwards and actually try to FORCE people to buy non-timing equipment by outlawing it in 'stock' or 'spec' or 'sportsman' or whatever they're going to call it now? I think that this direction is going to send more people away from ROAR than to it. Heck, 'spec' software was supposed to be the answer to dynamic timing capable/firmware flashable esc's once they allowed the question of dynamic timing to even be explored.

Since most tracks are 'for profit' businesses, I can see local tracks running for quite some time to come a rules set that allows 'spec' software in 'stock' classes with dynamic timing esc's, especially if it brings in the money that keeps the doors open and the lights on. That or MOD will simply suddenly get an introductory class that looks a lot like 'stock' today.

The whole statement about dynamic timing esc's being too complex for the typical stock class racer sells EVERYONE short. In fact, the whole tone smacks of 'it's too complex for us to police or you to understand or to drive effectively, so we're going to simply outlaw it unless you're one of those gods that runs in full blown mod classes". 19T brushed motors as a faster step up from 27T stock were resisted for a while, too, based on similar flawed logic.

Heck, it's been batted around for years.....STRICTLY SPEC as an introductory class.

ROAR is gonna do what ROAR wants to do. Doesn't mean everyone else has to or will fall in line. Happened before, will happen again.

At the end of the day, people will vote with their wallets through purchases and attendance at LOCAL tracks more than anything else.
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Last edited by Buckaroo; 01-11-2011 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:21 AM   #4
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Wow, you mean roar officials have the balls to to Actually put in writing that they are trying to improve racing. The nerve of those guys.
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:25 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
Now that the genie it out of the bottle........they're gonna go backwards and actually try to FORCE people to buy non-timing equipment? I think that this direction is going to send more people away from ROAR than to it. Heck, 'spec' software was supposed to be the answer to dynamic timing capable/firmware flashable esc's once they allowed the question of dynamic timing to even be explored.

Since most tracks are 'for profit' businesses, I can see local tracks running for quite some time to come a rules set that allows 'spec' software in 'stock' classes with dynamic timing esc's, especially if it brings in the money that keeps the doors open and the lights on. That or MOD will simply suddenly get an introductory class that looks a lot like 'stock' today.

The whole statement about dynamic timing esc's being too complex for the typical stock class racer sells EVERYONE short. In fact, the whole tone smacks of 'it's too complex for us to police or you to understand, so we're going to simply outlaw it unless you're one of those gods that runs in full blown mod classes".

And no, I'm not a ROAR member. I was, at one point, but not currently.
I guess its all in how you interpret what you read. I didn't read that anyone was going.to be FORCED TO BUY anything.
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:33 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
Wow, you mean roar officials have the balls to to Actually put in writing that they are trying to improve racing. The nerve of those guys.
Trying to and actually doing it are two different things. Not everyone worships at the alter of ROAR. VTA and RCGT seem to have done fine without ROAR intervention.



Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
I guess its all in how you interpret what you read. I didn't read that anyone was going.to be FORCED TO BUY anything.
You will have to buy new hardware IF you want to participate in a ROAR event in STOCK class once they outlaw in 2012 firmware updateable ESCs.
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:42 AM   #7
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Our Local Club [OVRCCC] adopted the ROAR 'Spec' class rules for 17.t TC this year and it has been a success

The racing is closer and more exciting than it has been for several years, I believe they are on the right path,

We allow the Castsle's and Tekins with the appropiate software and no performance difference is noticed,

It comes down to setup & driving,

If the more experienced racer feels the need to go faster then go to one of the 'Boosted' classes,

Keep up the good work ROAR.

Thankx, Bill



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Old 01-11-2011, 10:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedybill View Post
Our Local Club [OVRCCC] adopted the ROAR 'Spec' class rules for 17.t TC this year and it has been a success

The racing is closer and more exciting than it has been for several years, I believe they are on the right path,

We allow the Castsle's and Tekins with the appropiate software and no performance difference is noticed,

It comes down to setup & driving,

If the more experienced racer feels the need to go faster then go to one of the 'Boosted' classes,

Keep up the good work ROAR.

Thankx, Bill



.
That statement alone contraindicates outlawing flashable ESCs.

Incidently, our track has done the same thing....with similar results to yours. We run a 17.5 non-boosted and a 17.5 boosted. Our carpet track is too small for MOD for any but the best drivers. Our outdoor track, though, is HUGE and perfecly suited to 'boosted' classes. If dynamic timing will only be allowed in MOD, then 17.5 MOD will become a local class.
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedybill View Post

If the more experienced racer feels the need to go faster then go to one of the 'Boosted' classes,

Keep up the good work ROAR.

Thankx, Bill



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There are NO boosted classes. FWIW

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Old 01-11-2011, 10:48 AM   #10
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we run NO boosted classes
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:58 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hairy View Post
The changes that ROAR is proposing...
Is this up for Roar members to vote on?
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:03 AM   #12
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seems like going in circles to me?

i remember when there was only endbell timing, then dynamic timing first came out, then boosted, now "no timing" profile.

I like my tekin...
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:14 AM   #13
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There are NO boosted classes. FWIW

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I haven't read everything but couldn't you run a boost setup in modified?
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Old 01-11-2011, 11:33 AM   #14
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I haven't read everything but couldn't you run a boost setup in modified?
As of right now their proposal is mod is just that open speedo, profile, motor etc. Spec classes would be spec speedos non programable (no Tekins, lrp, Novak, etc) even if they are in spec mode or an older non timing speedos.

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Old 01-11-2011, 11:36 AM   #15
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Great discussion... still got the opportunity to use all our curent stuff and boost on up in Mod.... 10.5 up through 6.5 Boosted is still quite a ride at our place.....
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