Proposed R.O.A.R. rules change
01-15-2011, 02:56 AM
#481
I find this whole thing weird.....
We raced with brush motors for 25+ years.......the hobby grew every year.....bigger and bigger races each year, up to the point snowbirds was near 1000 class entries and the IIC had a waiting list to get in.....
All of this took place with the supposed massive learning curve of brushed motors and Nicad/NIMH batteries.....
Enter brushless.........rules rushed to the racing arena by one company, that basically eliminated any immediate competition......fanatics rejoiced, realists voiced concern......racing went on.
Now we are seeing declining race numbers all over, sure blame the recession.....I don't buy it. I am very active in another expensive hobby and we have seen nothing but the prices on stuff go up to crazy amounts, yet attendance is smashing records every weekend...
Brushless was rushed to the market with a terrible design, plain and simple. Too much effort was put into to make them similar in speed to brushed motors, while also making sure no other current brushless company would have a vilable product any time soon.......by the time other companies came out with stuff, they were basically making the same motor slightly tweaked under the stupid rules that were basically written by one company.
Then, we got a retarded setup of what was equal to a stock motor.....first it was 10.5, then 13.5, then 17.5, then 21.5.......which is it? Again, rushed in the name of money before anyone really knew....pushed through by the fanatics to save racing.
Companies like Tekin, LRP, etc have worked under these retarded rules to produce products for racers that don't thermal every race. Tekin has gone even a step further with free updates on their speedos....
I basically see all this cool new stuff coming out as fun! We get to tune and tinker a whole different way....
Now, you want to limit technology in an effort to "bring in new blood".....to make stuff fair. I find it all retarded......you can't tell me with a straight face that learning to use a laptop, let alone bringing one to the track or owning one is harder than the rituals went through with brushed motors and NIMH batteries. Brushless motors and speed controls are EASY......there is less to programming than a lot of people make it out to be. Plus you have easy resources to figure out settings......but yet we want to dumb down the hobby to bring in this new blood.
I find it also retarded we are attempting to change rules for nationals so more new people will go.........listen, our nationals are a joke. Any idiot can show up and race. I actually saw a guy come to carpet nats in 2006 and it was his FIRST rc race.......really? I then watched him ruin multiple peoples weekend for his lack of ability to drive around the track without hitting anything.....Nationals is NOT the place for newbies....
Maybe instead of spending time trying to limit technology and making peoples perfectly good equipment worthless.......why not fix whats broken, the whole race system. Make regionals matter, make nationals matter......make it an honor to win these races like they used to be......quit making 100 classes so every guy can win.....does winning sportsman box stock carpet daylight one-armed 1s 21.5 make you feel good? Figure out a way to get a national points system, ROAR track or not....eliminate sponsored drivers from the stock classes....
So by all means, keep blaming your recession for dwindling numbers......keep blaming stuff is too fast or too complicated. The truth is, stuff was done incorrectly in a hastily manner regardless of the warning signs, all the time while the whole national structure of racing was degrading and being ignored.......banning a speedo isn't going to fix those.
And yes, I know I am biased and a criminal, no need to remind me
Later EddieO
We raced with brush motors for 25+ years.......the hobby grew every year.....bigger and bigger races each year, up to the point snowbirds was near 1000 class entries and the IIC had a waiting list to get in.....
All of this took place with the supposed massive learning curve of brushed motors and Nicad/NIMH batteries.....
Enter brushless.........rules rushed to the racing arena by one company, that basically eliminated any immediate competition......fanatics rejoiced, realists voiced concern......racing went on.
Now we are seeing declining race numbers all over, sure blame the recession.....I don't buy it. I am very active in another expensive hobby and we have seen nothing but the prices on stuff go up to crazy amounts, yet attendance is smashing records every weekend...
Brushless was rushed to the market with a terrible design, plain and simple. Too much effort was put into to make them similar in speed to brushed motors, while also making sure no other current brushless company would have a vilable product any time soon.......by the time other companies came out with stuff, they were basically making the same motor slightly tweaked under the stupid rules that were basically written by one company.
Then, we got a retarded setup of what was equal to a stock motor.....first it was 10.5, then 13.5, then 17.5, then 21.5.......which is it? Again, rushed in the name of money before anyone really knew....pushed through by the fanatics to save racing.
Companies like Tekin, LRP, etc have worked under these retarded rules to produce products for racers that don't thermal every race. Tekin has gone even a step further with free updates on their speedos....
I basically see all this cool new stuff coming out as fun! We get to tune and tinker a whole different way....
Now, you want to limit technology in an effort to "bring in new blood".....to make stuff fair. I find it all retarded......you can't tell me with a straight face that learning to use a laptop, let alone bringing one to the track or owning one is harder than the rituals went through with brushed motors and NIMH batteries. Brushless motors and speed controls are EASY......there is less to programming than a lot of people make it out to be. Plus you have easy resources to figure out settings......but yet we want to dumb down the hobby to bring in this new blood.
I find it also retarded we are attempting to change rules for nationals so more new people will go.........listen, our nationals are a joke. Any idiot can show up and race. I actually saw a guy come to carpet nats in 2006 and it was his FIRST rc race.......really? I then watched him ruin multiple peoples weekend for his lack of ability to drive around the track without hitting anything.....Nationals is NOT the place for newbies....
Maybe instead of spending time trying to limit technology and making peoples perfectly good equipment worthless.......why not fix whats broken, the whole race system. Make regionals matter, make nationals matter......make it an honor to win these races like they used to be......quit making 100 classes so every guy can win.....does winning sportsman box stock carpet daylight one-armed 1s 21.5 make you feel good? Figure out a way to get a national points system, ROAR track or not....eliminate sponsored drivers from the stock classes....
So by all means, keep blaming your recession for dwindling numbers......keep blaming stuff is too fast or too complicated. The truth is, stuff was done incorrectly in a hastily manner regardless of the warning signs, all the time while the whole national structure of racing was degrading and being ignored.......banning a speedo isn't going to fix those.
And yes, I know I am biased and a criminal, no need to remind me
Later EddieO
01-15-2011, 07:05 AM
#482
LMAO= I alluded to this pages ago... and sure-- EddieO gets all of the credit 
This is good conversation though. And this rewrite involving Nationals/Regionals= as i said, should the regions be re-decided?
Then I got to looking at the map. It probably fine as is, except that in my case, and im sure im not the only one who lives WAY closer to racing in a Neighboring region than in his own.
My proposal to this would be that you can attend ANY regional to get through to the nats, or worlds= for your respective class.
I only bring this up because in 2000 I won a 2wd Mod National in Canada and the Worlds spot was given to the next guy FROM Canada. That was pretty gay as the track that held this ROAR Nat, was my home track- even if it was across the boarder. And not that I was going to South Africa either. (ha)..
I do understand the point of the regional is to decide a champ for that region and (ideally) qualify to run at the big show-- but a drivers geographical location shouldnt disqualify him or her from competing. Or in my case, enjoying the benefits.
KB
This is good conversation though. And this rewrite involving Nationals/Regionals= as i said, should the regions be re-decided?
Then I got to looking at the map. It probably fine as is, except that in my case, and im sure im not the only one who lives WAY closer to racing in a Neighboring region than in his own.
My proposal to this would be that you can attend ANY regional to get through to the nats, or worlds= for your respective class.
I only bring this up because in 2000 I won a 2wd Mod National in Canada and the Worlds spot was given to the next guy FROM Canada. That was pretty gay as the track that held this ROAR Nat, was my home track- even if it was across the boarder. And not that I was going to South Africa either. (ha)..
I do understand the point of the regional is to decide a champ for that region and (ideally) qualify to run at the big show-- but a drivers geographical location shouldnt disqualify him or her from competing. Or in my case, enjoying the benefits.
KB
Last edited by Keith Billanti; 01-15-2011 at 09:33 AM.
01-15-2011, 07:15 AM
#483
moving right along-- we used to at one time get "Rev UP"- dont know if that is still around, but there should be regular quarterly regional reports which call out the regional champions with race writeups= good pictures..etc... a BETTER, less 1994 looking website==
regional writeups should be accompanied with Magazine Quality photographs... YEAH-- i expect the regional director or track to hire a photographer for a couple hours during a regional.. Think Ooople quality coverage. Why dont we have this?? WHY IS RC RACING LESS SUBSTANTIAL in our superpower country- where the streets are paved with gold??
really, ROAR could be much more exciting than it is with just a little tweaking and some panache
I would be bold enough to Volunteer my time and efforts. Between School, Two Daughters and work- my plate is heaping= but, I have always wanted to be more involved in RC.
KB
regional writeups should be accompanied with Magazine Quality photographs... YEAH-- i expect the regional director or track to hire a photographer for a couple hours during a regional.. Think Ooople quality coverage. Why dont we have this?? WHY IS RC RACING LESS SUBSTANTIAL in our superpower country- where the streets are paved with gold??
really, ROAR could be much more exciting than it is with just a little tweaking and some panache
I would be bold enough to Volunteer my time and efforts. Between School, Two Daughters and work- my plate is heaping= but, I have always wanted to be more involved in RC.
KB
01-15-2011, 07:59 AM
#484
I like the idea of qualifing for the regionals and nats....
say we (Thunder RC) had a regional race...the top guys fron across the region would have 1 st pick if they was going to attend...then after that everyone else could fill the remaining spots...
set a limit like at the Gate and other races...say 100 entries...30 are the top guys the rest are joe blow...
then when the process repeats itself for the nats...
I would love to got to the regionals, never been nor do i know where they are
but I think it can be done
say we (Thunder RC) had a regional race...the top guys fron across the region would have 1 st pick if they was going to attend...then after that everyone else could fill the remaining spots...
set a limit like at the Gate and other races...say 100 entries...30 are the top guys the rest are joe blow...
then when the process repeats itself for the nats...
I would love to got to the regionals, never been nor do i know where they are
but I think it can be done
01-15-2011, 08:23 AM
#485
I would keep the Nats a qualify ONLY with a procedure in place that would allow ROAR Regionals to be the MAIN source of entry, then for fillers- the top THREE non ROAR races in the country (IIC/Birds/Cleveland for carpet) being the other qualifiers- TAKING SECOND CONSIDERATION.
Then- when all that is done and spots are filled- If NOT to capacity- Non Qualified Locals to the track holding the nats would then be allowed to fill in, and be subject to their OWN qualifiers- separated from the qualified racers until the resort-- this would be their last chance qualifier.
And much like the MX Nats- maybe even hold them at a specific set of tracks- just so that there is no wondering-- "where the hell the nats are this year".
Make the TRACKS qualify for the nats--- I.E.. you cant host the Nats unless you hosted a Regional in the last ___ years with a turnout of more than ____.
ROAR could mean something.
Then- when all that is done and spots are filled- If NOT to capacity- Non Qualified Locals to the track holding the nats would then be allowed to fill in, and be subject to their OWN qualifiers- separated from the qualified racers until the resort-- this would be their last chance qualifier.
And much like the MX Nats- maybe even hold them at a specific set of tracks- just so that there is no wondering-- "where the hell the nats are this year".
Make the TRACKS qualify for the nats--- I.E.. you cant host the Nats unless you hosted a Regional in the last ___ years with a turnout of more than ____.
ROAR could mean something.
01-15-2011, 08:28 AM
#486
I would keep the Nats a qualify ONLY with a procedure in place that would allow ROAR Regionals to be the MAIN source of entry, then for fillers- the top THREE non ROAR races in the country (IIC/Birds/Cleveland for carpet) being the other qualifiers- TAKING SECOND CONSIDERATION.
Then- when all that is done and spots are filled- If NOT to capacity- Non Qualified Locals to the track holding the nats would then be allowed to fill in, and be subject to their OWN qualifiers- separated from the qualified racers until the resort-- this would be their last chance qualifier.
And much like the MX Nats- maybe even hold them at a specific set of tracks- just so that there is no wondering-- "where the hell the nats are this year".
Make the TRACKS qualify for the nats--- I.E.. you cant host the Nats unless you hosted a Regional in the last ___ years with a turnout of more than ____.
ROAR could mean something.
Then- when all that is done and spots are filled- If NOT to capacity- Non Qualified Locals to the track holding the nats would then be allowed to fill in, and be subject to their OWN qualifiers- separated from the qualified racers until the resort-- this would be their last chance qualifier.
And much like the MX Nats- maybe even hold them at a specific set of tracks- just so that there is no wondering-- "where the hell the nats are this year".
Make the TRACKS qualify for the nats--- I.E.. you cant host the Nats unless you hosted a Regional in the last ___ years with a turnout of more than ____.
ROAR could mean something.
01-15-2011, 08:41 AM
#487
Its very refreshing to have people agree with me. Locally, the offroad crowd has their own drum beating LMAO..
Cool guys, but they have their own way of doing things which is really frustrating because its like watching a train wreck at times.
Funny though, eventually- it seems, most of my ideas come to light after years and years of doing it the other way... just imagine how far ahead "you" could have been if you would have listened to me back in ______. I may be a total _____ but dudes, Iv been around for decades-- and im only 31 LMAO. I have seen most, if not all of it. Or at the very least, I have seen what works.
An edit-- the Nats could be held by an "organization" as well. For example, the Gate in Cleveland- their current facility is not large enough to hold a nat, yet they went out and did a hotel race a couple years ago..
01-15-2011, 08:46 AM
#488
Making the regionals a requirement for Nats is a good idea. I think many of the ideas would work that were talked about in this thread. Then on top of that there needs to be a clear defined set of classes and have those classes last more then 1 year. I think many racers are frustrated from trying to chase what the next class will be and the rules of the equipment you can use. Make a class and equipment structure that is solid like for min of 2 years. Things like that have been done before like back in the Brushed motor days the 3300's were the battery for two years...allowed you to know what batteries to buy and run.
01-15-2011, 08:48 AM
#489
Keith one of the best Nats I have gone to was held by an organization. It was the 2004 On Road Nats in Portland. They held that race on a parking lot next to the hotel. Great event. Was also the place where I got to see first hand how wild the Brood guys were....lol
01-15-2011, 08:55 AM
#490
I like that too, Jeff.
Pick a damn motor, battery capacity and ESC output parameters for SPEC stock- call it a day. (NO Manufacturer SUPPORT CLASS- partial hobby shop support okay)
Pick a motor for PRO stock- call it a day. (NO 100% SUPPORT CLASS) and as it is PRO stock- this is a controlled motor and Openly available software class. Just like chassis- needing to be available- the software should be as well. Boost- turbo- nitrous what ever you want to call it..
and then Mod.
EVERY class gets a SPEC tire which honestly, for US nats, should go to a US manufacturer.. this would pump a little capitol into the US companies as well.
Pick a damn motor, battery capacity and ESC output parameters for SPEC stock- call it a day. (NO Manufacturer SUPPORT CLASS- partial hobby shop support okay)
Pick a motor for PRO stock- call it a day. (NO 100% SUPPORT CLASS) and as it is PRO stock- this is a controlled motor and Openly available software class. Just like chassis- needing to be available- the software should be as well. Boost- turbo- nitrous what ever you want to call it..
and then Mod.
EVERY class gets a SPEC tire which honestly, for US nats, should go to a US manufacturer.. this would pump a little capitol into the US companies as well.
01-15-2011, 09:08 AM
#492
Well, I am gonna be honest and bring out my other hobby as example.....one Peter, Garrett, Wes, Jenkins, etc teased me about relentlessly.....Magic the Gathering.
I've played since 1994.....love the game.
Go look at its system.......see how they do it. You qualify for nats through regionals and their rating system, along with last chance qualifiers they hold the day before.
When I left for my vacation, some of my cards, which are a staple 10 cards used in a lot of decks were worth $15-$35......those same cards now are worth $30-$95....its not uncommon for a deck in the Legacy format to cost over $1000.....so you would think, rising card prices during a recession would be odd and decrease attendance, since people can't supposedly afford stuff......NOPE. Records for tournament attendance not only got broken in 2009 and 2010, they got SMASHED. 2000+ people at the last two Grand Prixs from all over the WORLD.....
Now yes, magic has money at the end of some of these tournaments, but their regionals and nationals do not really, just the pride of winning and going to worlds.......
Other hobbies and sports have enjoyed similar success using a regional qualifier system....
Steve, good to see you post......I would think maybe we could use a two year regional qualifier or something, that way if life interferes, in 2011, your 2010 participation could get you in, but 2012....you gotta show up. Also could be something regional directors could be a part of, providing waivers to get into nats in the event a legit nationals caliber racer misses his regional...........of course, a points system could cure this too.....having a invites to top ranked drivers from each region or we could allow certain two day events in each regions to be supplemental qualifiers.....
Basically, we need nationals to MATTER.....we want people fighting for those spots, not just showing up because they can.......
Another idea we had, was using regional finishing spots to determine initial heat orders for Nationals......so all the regions first/second place guys go in heat 1 and 2...then scale down.
I still think ROAR should pony up money for the regional winners for travel to nationals.......even if its $200 or whatever.....might now be able to do every class at first, but start and work our way up to it......
Like Robk said.......make it scarce, make it desirable.....
Later EddieO
I've played since 1994.....love the game.
Go look at its system.......see how they do it. You qualify for nats through regionals and their rating system, along with last chance qualifiers they hold the day before.
When I left for my vacation, some of my cards, which are a staple 10 cards used in a lot of decks were worth $15-$35......those same cards now are worth $30-$95....its not uncommon for a deck in the Legacy format to cost over $1000.....so you would think, rising card prices during a recession would be odd and decrease attendance, since people can't supposedly afford stuff......NOPE. Records for tournament attendance not only got broken in 2009 and 2010, they got SMASHED. 2000+ people at the last two Grand Prixs from all over the WORLD.....
Now yes, magic has money at the end of some of these tournaments, but their regionals and nationals do not really, just the pride of winning and going to worlds.......
Other hobbies and sports have enjoyed similar success using a regional qualifier system....
Steve, good to see you post......I would think maybe we could use a two year regional qualifier or something, that way if life interferes, in 2011, your 2010 participation could get you in, but 2012....you gotta show up. Also could be something regional directors could be a part of, providing waivers to get into nats in the event a legit nationals caliber racer misses his regional...........of course, a points system could cure this too.....having a invites to top ranked drivers from each region or we could allow certain two day events in each regions to be supplemental qualifiers.....
Basically, we need nationals to MATTER.....we want people fighting for those spots, not just showing up because they can.......
Another idea we had, was using regional finishing spots to determine initial heat orders for Nationals......so all the regions first/second place guys go in heat 1 and 2...then scale down.
I still think ROAR should pony up money for the regional winners for travel to nationals.......even if its $200 or whatever.....might now be able to do every class at first, but start and work our way up to it......
Like Robk said.......make it scarce, make it desirable.....
Later EddieO
01-15-2011, 09:18 AM
#493
(I have to be first) Haha= you play magic.. dork. (jk) My cousin was into that-- tried to get me into it.. I just couldnt do it.. lol... funny, how we all seem to have the same stuff going on... not just RC in common..
I like that too!
ROAR puts up X for regional winners.. there's only what-- 15-20 regions??
better yet, they put up the lodging.. or the plane ticket.. or the food.. why does ROAR not do this already? where the hell are these entry fee's going? Dont say insurance.. I am so against insurance...
IIC involves a banquet lunch or dinner-- doesnt it? Nats should have a caterer and a party night...
we could really BLOW this out.
and- the way I see it-- we just entered a new Decade-- lets make this the Decade of ROAR's return.
(talk is cheap)
I like that too!
ROAR puts up X for regional winners.. there's only what-- 15-20 regions??
better yet, they put up the lodging.. or the plane ticket.. or the food.. why does ROAR not do this already? where the hell are these entry fee's going? Dont say insurance.. I am so against insurance...
IIC involves a banquet lunch or dinner-- doesnt it? Nats should have a caterer and a party night...
we could really BLOW this out.
and- the way I see it-- we just entered a new Decade-- lets make this the Decade of ROAR's return.
(talk is cheap)
01-15-2011, 10:32 AM
#494
IF the issue is simply that the profiles can be altered on the fly from "spec blinky" to another profile and back again. This too can be altered with a quick software update. We could simply NOT allow the user to switch from "blinky spec" to another profile WHILE in blinky mode. And THAT update woud once again be FREE!
Makes sense to me...
+1 Randy