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Old 01-12-2011, 11:24 AM   #226
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Who really cares about mod anyhow... We have that class so people can attend a race that is held every two years ?

two classes....

Non timing and timing... same motor.....
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:36 AM   #227
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We ran a 17.5 Blinky no timing class at are dirt oval race this year (460 plus entries) and had no problems teching this class and no problems with cheating what so ever. It was very easy to police. Both the Tekin and Castle speedos where used and checking for the ROAR blinky no timing was a breeze for me and the other tech. Don't get much easier. Very simple.

At the end of the day no matter what rules you make and no matter how much you try to control classes the end result is the fast guys with boost will be the fast guys without because they drive and setup their stuff better than others and that will first and foremost win races. The best drivers and setups will always prevail.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:36 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by malkiy View Post
It's a lot more difficult to hack a ESC when the hardware link (hotwire, novalink or program box) isn't being sold. A hacker would need to hack the firmware and find the specs for the hardware link which the manufacturer only knows.
The word difficult is relative. R/C racing was great in the past. People had a lot of talent in either driving skills, chassis setup, brush motor building, etc. If they were weak in one area, they could make it up in another. Strong in all areas = National Champion.

All hobbies bring out the hobbiest on the fringe of genius.

There is a racer who figured out how to make a Tamiya M-04 (rear wheel mini) go really, really fast years ahead of everyone. There are also a handful of racers who are able to make a Tamiya Silver Can motor (closed spec motor) double it's performance. These are all hobbyiest.

Within our 3 local tracks we have a racer with a PHD in mechanical engineering. We also had a PHD Physicist student visiting from China who contracted on the development of the HobbyWing ESC (OEM for SpeedPassion). We have a guy who reprogrammed his JR radio for the fun of it. We also have the typical local XBOX gamers and Cisco network engineers. All these guys live on technical challenges. These guys couldn't figure out how to change brushes or add comm drops. It was difficult for them. But feel right at home with an EEPROM and a laptop.

Breaking in to a ESc screwed together to play with timing and manipulate some LED lights on command is Hacker 101.

BTW, some of the best software engineers that I work with come from India. The Indian government came up a electronic voting machine where all the code is on a single chip encased in untamperable epoxy. This system runs on batteries in a 3rd world environment and is cheap and flawless. It was offered to the US but rejected. Go figure.

Auto racing is a mechical sport. ...whoever physically crosses a line first within a physical distance or physical time. All three undeniably measurable and tamperproof. Therefore, all the specs should be mechanical for a spec class where the cars have more capabilities compared to their speeds.

MOD racing does not have these issues, go as fast as you can personally handle. - all mechanically and limited by physics.
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:12 PM   #229
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im all for the change, all i would say is instead of giving people time to adjust just outright phase out any boosted ESC for ROAR events right now. Personally I thought the whole "boosted" esc idea was stupid and took away from "stock" class racing.
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:31 PM   #230
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you misunderstand my statement. i did not say that each club can choose their own rules for each class. what i said is that each club can choose the classes that they use to compete locally, but to have rules defined for each class. the idea may be to have a spec 17.5, 17.5 boost, spec 13.5, 13.5 boost, and mod. then the clubs choose among these classes, but each class has well defined rules. this allows clubs to run what is popular in the area.
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Yes. And then for the nationals it would be up to roar and the host to come up with the correct classes for the nationals.

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This is a great idea...it would end this debate.
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:36 PM   #231
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When all is said and done we will all find a place to play with our toys with the equipment WE want in it. I don't blame any one company or any one person for the changes.For me I think a total ban is wrong and it sends the wrong message.That's my opinion and i am entitled to it.
I thank Tekin for being the salient in the ESC business and I hope they continue to be the customer oriented business they are.How many other companies can you just pick up the phone and ask to speak to the president and he takes the time to talk to you. I know there are others out there like that but not many.
R.O.A.R. is doing what they think is best and I can't fault them for it. What ever happens this hobby will survive,racers will find a class to race in and all will be right with the world.
I started this thread to spark communication and to get ideas. I want to thank ALL of you for keeping civil and NOT letting tempers guide your posts. We can work together to to find common ground and this thread is proof.
I only wish that the president of R.O.A.R. had come on here and made himself available to answer some of the questions directly(not that he has to explain anything that the company does), oh well no harm no fowl.

Again thank you all for be civil, smart, creative and inspiring!

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Old 01-12-2011, 12:49 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by TimPotter View Post
Who really cares about mod anyhow... We have that class so people can attend a race that is held every two years ?

two classes....

Non timing and timing... same motor.....
Main reason no one races on-road anymore if you ask me ...
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:52 PM   #233
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This is a great idea...it would end this debate.
i don't think it is that good of an idea. i mean to end an Internet debate in less then 20 pages. lol
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:02 PM   #234
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I would like to see the boosted stuff phased out of everything but mod. I think, in most cases it helps the fast guys go faster and the slow guys struggle more. We race tc at our local track and the rules are pretty simple and easy to police. 17.5, any timing on the motor you want, but no on the boost speed control. This makes it easy to join the class and go to other places to race this class, and more importantly be competitive there. It is too much to add in all the settings for the average club racer to figure out at their home track let alone go to another track and race competitively. For example in, 12th scale, I would love to see us try 13.5 with no boost. The average person could pick up a $50 speedo and join the class and not have to worry about the "turbo ramp" settings etc. I know I would be more willing to travel to other tracks and run classes that are more based on chassis setup and driving skill than having that extra wad of stuff to figure out. This is just my $.005
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:03 PM   #235
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First off I am not a ROAR member and don't particularly want to be as I'm not involved in ROAR sanctioned racing. However; I do enjoy racing and race regularly in our local club, but I REALLY enjoy the technical side of the hobby and devote a good portion of my spare time to tinkering.

What I really don't want to see happen is for technical advancement to cease and products become unavailable because they are outlawed in ROAR racing.

I really appreciate the effort that Tekin, Novak and similar companies have invested in this technology, and quite frankly I want to see more. I think there is still a lot more potential to be tapped in brushless motors, ESC's, etc., and support the effort to tap into it and it appears that there are quite a few people with similar ideas.

I don't know how much of this hobby worldwide is dictated by ROAR, but if the rest of the world doesn't get on board and instead demands further advancement in the technology then the Tekin's, Novak's and other companies will either provide the products or get surpassed by Chinese or other designers and manufacturers in other countries that are willing to fill the void.

Believe me, I fully understand the reasoning behind ROAR's proposed change, but I believe it is a big mistake and I hope that the clubs and especially the manufacturers will not support it. Unfortunately this will have the effect of further diminishing ROAR's status in the sport, which is unfortunate.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:06 PM   #236
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I would like to see the boosted stuff phased out of everything but mod. I think, in most cases it helps the fast guys go faster and the slow guys struggle more. We race tc at our local track and the rules are pretty simple and easy to police. 17.5, any timing on the motor you want, but no on the boost speed control. This makes it easy to join the class and go to other places to race this class, and more importantly be competitive there. It is too much to add in all the settings for the average club racer to figure out at their home track let alone go to another track and race competitively. For example in, 12th scale, I would love to see us try 13.5 with no boost. The average person could pick up a $50 speedo and join the class and not have to worry about the "turbo ramp" settings etc. I know I would be more willing to travel to other tracks and run classes that are more based on chassis setup and driving skill than having that extra wad of stuff to figure out. This is just my $.005
devil's advocate. why not limit the motor as well. is it not an issue to have one motor with no timing change and the another to have a full 360 degree timing ring? i mean brushless motors are almost as much as speedos at this point. a custom build N motor is $109 and a tekin rs is $130. even a general public available N motor is $90

i think if you are going to say spec, then it need to be "SPEC"
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:07 PM   #237
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Going to blinky is great, but banning current speedos that can run blinky mode seems draconian. Seems like there would be an easy way to detect timing advance through the sensor wire on a tech bench?

I'm running 17.5 boosted sedan right now and really enjoy it, although I understand that the cost of entry isn't cheap, and neither is learning the boosting game. If the class suddenly went blinky, I'd go back to playing with my off-road cars and wait for mod sedan to become available at my local track as it isn't right now.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:13 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by mracer View Post
I would like to see the boosted stuff phased out of everything but mod. I think, in most cases it helps the fast guys go faster and the slow guys struggle more. We race tc at our local track and the rules are pretty simple and easy to police. 17.5, any timing on the motor you want, but no on the boost speed control. This makes it easy to join the class and go to other places to race this class, and more importantly be competitive there. It is too much to add in all the settings for the average club racer to figure out at their home track let alone go to another track and race competitively. For example in, 12th scale, I would love to see us try 13.5 with no boost. The average person could pick up a $50 speedo and join the class and not have to worry about the "turbo ramp" settings etc. I know I would be more willing to travel to other tracks and run classes that are more based on chassis setup and driving skill than having that extra wad of stuff to figure out. This is just my $.005
I agree with you 100%. I would be more than happy to take my Kinetic to the non boost setting. I do well with it on but I too feel that the advancing esc's have really hurt the hobby, made things tougher for the guy that is new or only has one night of the week to run a car at the track. I only bought a boosted esc so that I could remain competitive. Our club let the non boosted guys run 13.5's against the boosted 17.5's in 1/12 and they still were coming up nearly a second slower a lap.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:17 PM   #239
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I would be more than happy to take my Kinetic to the non boost setting.
Your Kinetic would be OUTLAWED under the current proposal, regardless of 'blinky' or 'non-boost' or 'spec' mode or not. That is, unless you raced in MOD, in which case you'dd already be using boost anyway.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:23 PM   #240
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devil's advocate. why not limit the motor as well. is it not an issue to have one motor with no timing change and the another to have a full 360 degree timing ring? i mean brushless motors are almost as much as speedos at this point. a custom build N motor is $109 and a tekin rs is $130. even a general public available N motor is $90

i think if you are going to say spec, then it need to be "SPEC"
I agree in part, but I think all the bells and whistles is making on-road too costly and expensive to enter. There are all sorts of things that could be spec'd out battery C rating, etc. I just think the speedos are the big barrier for most right now. I think it is too much of a load for the new racer to buy and try to figure out from the start. The off-road in our area seems to have more "thrive" in our area because of the buy stupid and run it stupid rules. I just put a brand new B4.1 together with $100 worth of electronics in it. And in a few weeks of racing I will be competitive with that. On-road stuff approaches $300 in electronics and I am not even competitive with that.
In sum, I just want to see on-road grow and prosper here and everywhere, and I think we have to look at reducing sticker price and complication to help it do that.
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