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Proposed R.O.A.R. rules change

Proposed R.O.A.R. rules change

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Old 01-11-2011, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by vafactor View Post
the simplest solution is often the best solution to a problem. It would seem to me that having two classes for each type of car should be enough. I propose that the slower class should be done with an eye towards keeping costs under control, keeping things simple for the racer, and running manageable speeds for those who are new to the game, limited in their skills & experience, or limited in the amount of time that they have available to devote to their RC racing program. The current blinky speedos (also allowing the simple cheap ones) would seem a decent way to limit performance (and cost) for those who prefer to run a budget conscious limited speed class. For those who want to go faster, who are looking for more intense competition, or who want to explore the limits of available technology, why can't all of those guys just run mod? (either with the hottest motor they can handle, the fanciest speedo they can bring to the table, or a combination of both). Seems like it's the superstock class in the middle where things have tended to get complicated. It's that arena where the desire for extra power is always going to be an endless quest that has proven to be almost impossible to manage in the age of brushless motors and programmable speedos. So why not just go with the two classes that are easy to manage. Blinky stock (where basic cheap speedos can also be run) for the slower limited class, and the fast class where guys can run whatever they can handle. These top and bottom classes seem very easy to make rules for and to manage. It's that middle class (aka boosted stock or super stock) where it's virtually impossible to keep the playing field level. That also seems to be the arena that generates most of the controversy. So why not toss out the problematic middle ground and run either slow cars with strict limits that are easy to police or fast cars without limits where there's no need for police at all? Seems simple enough, don't you think?
Again....why not legalize existing equipment that can be configured to suit such a class?

Last edited by Xpress; 01-11-2011 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by vafactor View Post
the simplest solution is often the best solution to a problem. It would seem to me that having two classes for each type of car should be enough. I propose that the slower class should be done with an eye towards keeping costs under control, keeping things simple for the racer, and running manageable speeds for those who are new to the game, limited in their skills & experience, or limited in the amount of time that they have available to devote to their RC racing program. The current blinky speedos (also allowing the simple cheap ones) would seem a decent way to limit performance (and cost) for those who prefer to run a budget conscious limited speed class. For those who want to go faster, who are looking for more intense competition, or who want to explore the limits of available technology, why can't all of those guys just run mod? (either with the hottest motor they can handle, the fanciest speedo they can bring to the table, or a combination of both). Seems like it's the superstock class in the middle where things have tended to get complicated. It's that arena where the desire for extra power is always going to be an endless quest that has proven to be almost impossible to manage in the age of brushless motors and programmable speedos. So why not just go with the two classes that are easy to manage. Blinky stock (where basic cheap speedos can also be run) for the slower limited class, and the fast class where guys can run whatever they can handle. These top and bottom classes seem very easy to make rules for and to manage. It's that middle class (aka boosted stock or super stock) where it's virtually impossible to keep the playing field level. That also seems to be the arena that generates most of the controversy. So why not toss out the problematic middle ground and run either slow cars with strict limits that are easy to police or fast cars without limits where there's no need for police at all? Seems simple enough, don't you think?
No one wants to take a week off of work and spend 1000 or more dollars to race one class. I would never attend any race ever that offers only one touring class I can enter. I feel as if I'm a fairly skilled driver and to me mod is just stupid on our small indoor tracks with walls. Its not any fun for me. Outdoors where I can actually pull the trigger I enjoy it but on a 90 foot track its just no fun.

That is just my opinion.
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:40 PM
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really? NO ONE. cause......
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:00 PM
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ROAR is not going to bring new people into this hobby/sport. This has to take place at the local level. The rules are for all to follow as a guide, if you will for the local show.Tracks will run what brings home the bacon. The rules for 21.5 and 17.5 non boosted, I think are being done so Sally Onelapback and Johny Threetire can go to a big race and have a better chance at a bowling trophy.


One good question, if I was to win a National Race in 21.5 non boosted, would that qualify me for the Worlds.
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:06 PM
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Bring back the 13.5 boosted SuperStock class for the more skilled drivers, 17.5 non-boosted for noobs, and Mod/open for the gifted.
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
part two, the banning of ESC's sounds crazy but let me ask you this, who has the better stock/spec/no timing esc/program. did you pick one? have you actually compared them? if you can tell me that brand x has a better spec program then brand Y then there is a problem. I can tell you I have tried the Speedpassion stock spec esc, and compared it to the Speedpassion Pro 2.0 with stock spec software and the Pro 2 is faster, I can also tell you when i compared Novaks spec program to Speedpassion in a 1s chassis there was a difference. Which tells me, if I want to go to a nationals and actually compete, I need to try a tekin and a lrp to find out for myself which is best which is only going to cost more money. whos saving money now, and playing the esc of the week program, what happens when tekin releases 214 stock profile, and speedpassion releases 023111 stock profile. (sp guys did you catch that). what better way to get away from all that non sense then to spec a esc. however, It may be on Roar to have these spec escs as hand outs for the stock class, to be returned after the race. that means roar would absorb the cost of the esc instead of the racers. I know hobbywing/speedpassion can produce and MAKE MONEY on a dirt cheap stock spec esc, not sure why the other boys can't too. maybe place a bid with roar to be the esc of the year, or hand out 2 or 3 year contracts so it makes sense to bid for the chance to be the offical esc of the Roar Nationals, there are so many ways to do this, and for it to work all this crazy talk here is mind boggling.

and for you guys saying that if you have to turn off boost your not going.... you weren't going anyway and we all know that. IMO

Peace

Roars Last and final Masters class winner ever.
i totally agree that banning existing Tekin RS/RSpro is stupid. however, concluding that one ESC 'spec' program is better than another is missing the point. if you recall in that mid-late 90's the ESC mfg's used to advertise their minimum resistance, as this was best they could at wide open throttle.

i agree that spec'ing 0 timing is a field leveling device, but some ESC hardware (more or better FETs) will always have some advantage or disadvantage. that is not cheating but it is an advantage.

by the way, you really need to hand it to speedpassion, they turn a technology deficiency into a marketing advantage, and now they even get the competition outlawed. WTF!
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TVMRocket69 View Post
Bring back the 13.5 boosted SuperStock class for the more skilled drivers, 17.5 non-boosted for noobs, and Mod/open for the gifted.
Really well put. Seriously. Don't really care if it is 13.5 or 17.5 boosted, just a middle "transitional" class that I think is very important.
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by BigTrucks View Post
ROAR is not going to bring new people into this hobby/sport. This has to take place at the local level. The rules are for all to follow as a guide, if you will for the local show.Tracks will run what brings home the bacon. The rules for 21.5 and 17.5 non boosted, I think are being done so Sally Onelapback and Johny Threetire can go to a big race and have a better chance at a bowling trophy.


One good question, if I was to win a National Race in 21.5 non boosted, would that qualify me for the Worlds.

would winning 17.5 or 13.5 boosted qualify you for worlds?
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post
Kevin,

I may take some flak from this but to be honest I put part of the blame on ROAR as well. The software should have been tested before it was ever posted as being legal. If Tekin was told it was legal I am sure they assumed it was tested and passed no further action required. Would you ask any questions if something you submitted was legalized and told its all good? If it would have been tested up front then this whole conversation would have never happened and some people wouldnt have doubts about it.

My opinion as a RACER.

EA
You are right...it should have been right from the start...ROAR should have tested it and Tekin should have made it correct....they both share the blame. Like I said they have both lead us to this road we are on. ROAR is now looking to make it all right. Maybe with some crying along the way but I think we will all end up at the track having fun.

Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
really doesn't seem to be that big a deal to me. of all the posts here only a couple of you guys go to roar events anyway, (I'm not talking about your local club race) Roar is trying to appeal to the sportsman and amature as a way to rebuild and increase turnout at regionals and nationals at least thats what i think is going on here, (cause you don't show up anyway) for carpet nats they have introduced a 21.5 DEMO class, DEMO class, DEMO class, did you get that part, its a DEMO class. IMO during the race and after the race they will be asking for the racers that run that class for thier opinions. I signed up for that class so i can give mine if asked for. 17.5 boosted sedan is stupid fast and in no way should be considered "stock" anymore. 17.5 non boosted is probably a good "stock" class, 21.5 unboosted is more then likey going to be a amature/sportsman, welcome to your first nationals class and may just increase turnout, which WE have been asking for forever.

part two, the banning of ESC's sounds crazy but let me ask you this, who has the better stock/spec/no timing esc/program. did you pick one? have you actually compared them? if you can tell me that brand x has a better spec program then brand Y then there is a problem. I can tell you I have tried the Speedpassion stock spec esc, and compared it to the Speedpassion Pro 2.0 with stock spec software and the Pro 2 is faster, I can also tell you when i compared Novaks spec program to Speedpassion in a 1s chassis there was a difference. Which tells me, if I want to go to a nationals and actually compete, I need to try a tekin and a lrp to find out for myself which is best which is only going to cost more money. whos saving money now, and playing the esc of the week program, what happens when tekin releases 214 stock profile, and speedpassion releases 023111 stock profile. (sp guys did you catch that). what better way to get away from all that non sense then to spec a esc. however, It may be on Roar to have these spec escs as hand outs for the stock class, to be returned after the race. that means roar would absorb the cost of the esc instead of the racers. I know hobbywing/speedpassion can produce and MAKE MONEY on a dirt cheap stock spec esc, not sure why the other boys can't too. maybe place a bid with roar to be the esc of the year, or hand out 2 or 3 year contracts so it makes sense to bid for the chance to be the offical esc of the Roar Nationals, there are so many ways to do this, and for it to work all this crazy talk here is mind boggling.

and for you guys saying that if you have to turn off boost your not going.... you weren't going anyway and we all know that. IMO

Peace

Roars Last and final Masters class winner ever.
Awesome post!!!
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by vafactor View Post
the simplest solution is often the best solution to a problem. It would seem to me that having two classes for each type of car should be enough. I propose that the slower class should be done with an eye towards keeping costs under control, keeping things simple for the racer, and running manageable speeds for those who are new to the game, limited in their skills & experience, or limited in the amount of time that they have available to devote to their RC racing program. The current blinky speedos (also allowing the simple cheap ones) would seem a decent way to limit performance (and cost) for those who prefer to run a budget conscious limited speed class. For those who want to go faster, who are looking for more intense competition, or who want to explore the limits of available technology, why can't all of those guys just run mod? (either with the hottest motor they can handle, the fanciest speedo they can bring to the table, or a combination of both). Seems like it's the superstock class in the middle where things have tended to get complicated. It's that arena where the desire for extra power is always going to be an endless quest that has proven to be almost impossible to manage in the age of brushless motors and programmable speedos. So why not just go with the two classes that are easy to manage. Blinky stock (where basic cheap speedos can also be run) for the slower limited class, and the fast class where guys can run whatever they can handle. These top and bottom classes seem very easy to make rules for and to manage. It's that middle class (aka boosted stock or super stock) where it's virtually impossible to keep the playing field level. That also seems to be the arena that generates most of the controversy. So why not toss out the problematic middle ground and run either slow cars with strict limits that are easy to police or fast cars without limits where there's no need for police at all? Seems simple enough, don't you think?
oh yes, simple but you just wiped out the majority of the field. the majority of racers are in the not too fast and not too slow category. sure there are beginners, and there are some that can afford to run mod, but the majority can best find a competitive experience in that middle range.

it should be expected that the most controversy would center around the most competitive setup. a restricted spec class requires/promises an even playing field. when the racing is close, a small advantage becomes a significant advantage, so its only natural that controversy will arise. but is that a reason to eliminate the majority?
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Xpress View Post
Again....why not legalize existing equipment that can be configured to suit such a class?
That was already tried and by mistake or not was found to be "out of spec".
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by TVMRocket69 View Post
Bring back the 13.5 boosted SuperStock class for the more skilled drivers, 17.5 non-boosted for noobs, and Mod/open for the gifted.
BING! We have a winner.
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by avs View Post
i totally agree that banning existing Tekin RS/RSpro is stupid. however, concluding that one ESC 'spec' program is better than another is missing the point. if you recall in that mid-late 90's the ESC mfg's used to advertise their minimum resistance, as this was best they could at wide open throttle.

i agree that spec'ing 0 timing is a field leveling device, but some ESC hardware (more or better FETs) will always have some advantage or disadvantage. that is not cheating but it is an advantage.

by the way, you really need to hand it to speedpassion, they turn a technology deficiency into a marketing advantage, and now they even get the competition outlawed. WTF!
my conclusions reguarding the performance of different spec software is only being used as a guess why roar would consider coming up with a spec esc. question I have is why is everyone referring to Tekin as if they will be the only ones effected.

it seems you agree that in one way or another any esc can gain a "spec" advantage or another esc, you are in fact helping prove my point.

I certainly wish SP had that kind of power, but with absolutely no SP support personal at major events I kinda doubt it. Well other then Charlie, no factory support like tekin, novak, and lrp provides
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Racecrafter View Post
That was already tried and by mistake or not was found to be "out of spec".
Bingo....this is why whats happening is happening.


You live and learn....first you live...then you learn.
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Old 01-11-2011, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CristianTabush View Post
Really well put. Seriously. Don't really care if it is 13.5 or 17.5 boosted, just a middle "transitional" class that I think is very important.
Originally Posted by Racecrafter View Post
That was already tried and by mistake or not was found to be "out of spec".
that is foolishly irresponsible. you know darn well that fixed esc timing and 0 timing are exactly alike unless you have fixed endbell's and identical hardware.

NOTE that even 'spec hardware' is BS because the local cirtix class had problems with people cranking the timing on their speedpasssion cirtix 'sportsman' class fixed timing motors. marketing bs does not equate to equality or fairness.
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