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Old 10-26-2010, 02:32 AM   #16
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Well, I'm still going to get the Duo3. I know that it isnt the motor that makes it fast, but how fast you can make the turn cleanly. Coming from 1/10 nitro I, and many others, think that I would do very well in 17.5. I hope they are right as well as myself, just have to get the setup right for my style of driving
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Old 10-26-2010, 05:02 AM   #17
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Today, I removed a 13.5 Duo 2 from my 1/12th car and substituted it for a 13.5 Novak Ballistic. Got an immediate 1.5 seconds reduction in lap times.
replaced an old motor with a new motor?

its funny when people buy new motors and think they are faster. ANY fresh motor is always going to be quicker than an old well used motor
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Old 10-26-2010, 07:54 AM   #18
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replaced an old motor with a new motor?

its funny when people buy new motors and think they are faster. ANY fresh motor is always going to be quicker than an old well used motor
Not always true. My worn out speedpassion will still out run a brand new pluses. BTW I'M STILL WAITING ON MY REPLACEMENT
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Old 10-26-2010, 11:31 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by captain stacker View Post
replaced an old motor with a new motor?

its funny when people buy new motors and think they are faster. ANY fresh motor is always going to be quicker than an old well used motor



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Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
Not always true. My worn out speedpassion will still out run a brand new pluses.


Correct. Just because two motors are wound the same doesn't make them anywhere close to performing the same. Heck, a worn Boss tuned SP beats a fresh SP, for that matter. It's all about how deteroriated it is or is not, and the better motors start at a better performance mark than the entry level products, so even if they fall off a little, they're still more capable performers than fresh, but lower standard, motors.

As another example, a Novak 17.5 SS is a 130ish watt motor with out of the box timing, while an LRP X12 17.5 is a 180ish watt motor with the same out of the box timing.

The X12 has a -10 to +10 degree additional MECHANICAL timing adjustment, which opens up the performance gap between the two even more.

Both can be had, new or used, for about the same price when shopping on eBay auctions (notice I did NOT say the "Buy it now" options). I don't care what the MSRP difference is, or the difference in price at your LHS. Shop the market, unless for some reason you just have to have it NOW. MSRP they're different classes of motor, but in the real world......well, it's your money, use it however you like.

Dollar for dollar spent, there's no doubt that the X12 is the better/faster motor that will allow you to change timing physically, endure electronic timing/boost, and provide room for overall growth as your skills progress.

Oh, the more capable motors will hold their value better when you go to trade in/up or sell it off.

Even a beat X12 will best a fresh Novak SS. I've seen it and lived it swapping one for one in the same car (and YES, gearing and all was adjusted to accomodate the different requirements of each motor, and work done to optimize the set up for each!).

Nothing wrong with entry level products, just expect entry level performance. Whatever you opt for, the more features it has, the more potential it has. The rest is up to you!
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Last edited by Buckaroo; 10-26-2010 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 10-26-2010, 12:56 PM   #20
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You can also design your own custom motor:

Build-A-Ballistic™

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Originally Posted by DJ_Shakespear View Post
OK, the question I have is which 17.5T motor is better out of the following:

1-Novak SS Pro
2-Team Epic Duo 2
3-Team Epic Duo 3
4-Novak 3617 Ballistic Spec

It will be powered by a Hobby Wing Xtreme Stock Brushless ESC, so what would be a better choice? Thanks guys (and girls if you lurk round here )
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Old 10-26-2010, 01:07 PM   #21
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You can also design your own custom motor:

Build-A-Ballistic™
Can we pick the stator color?
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Old 10-26-2010, 01:54 PM   #22
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Not sure that motor components "deteriorate", but chronic overheating can damage or even burn up your stator, magnet and even the timing assembly...
What is your definition of "overheating" a motor and on what location of the motor do you check the temperature?
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Old 10-26-2010, 02:22 PM   #23
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Can we pick the stator color?
The plastic color insert designating the spec wind is attached to the wound stator; click drop down stator wind to change colors:

Ballistic Spec 540 Wound Stators
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Old 10-26-2010, 02:26 PM   #24
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What is your definition of "overheating" a motor and on what location of the motor do you check the temperature?
Running a BL motor at temps exceeding the mfgs' guidance can melt the coating on the stator wires and cause the wires to short out; in addition, high timing blasts can intermittently overheat the motor. This type of overheating can not be checked with a temp meter and can damage the stator and demag the rotor.
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Old 10-26-2010, 02:45 PM   #25
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Correct. Just because two motors are wound the same doesn't make them anywhere close to performing the same. Heck, a worn Boss tuned SP beats a fresh SP, for that matter. It's all about how deteroriated it is or is not, and the better motors start at a better performance mark than the entry level products, so even if they fall off a little, they're still more capable performers than fresh, but lower standard, motors.

As another example, a Novak 17.5 SS is a 130ish watt motor with out of the box timing, while an LRP X12 17.5 is a 180ish watt motor with the same out of the box timing.

The X12 has a -10 to +10 degree additional MECHANICAL timing adjustment, which opens up the performance gap between the two even more.

Both can be had, new or used, for about the same price when shopping on eBay auctions (notice I did NOT say the "Buy it now" options). I don't care what the MSRP difference is, or the difference in price at your LHS. Shop the market, unless for some reason you just have to have it NOW. MSRP they're different classes of motor, but in the real world......well, it's your money, use it however you like.

Dollar for dollar spent, there's no doubt that the X12 is the better/faster motor that will allow you to change timing physically, endure electronic timing/boost, and provide room for overall growth as your skills progress.

Oh, the more capable motors will hold their value better when you go to trade in/up or sell it off.

Even a beat X12 will best a fresh Novak SS. I've seen it and lived it swapping one for one in the same car (and YES, gearing and all was adjusted to accomodate the different requirements of each motor, and work done to optimize the set up for each!).

Nothing wrong with entry level products, just expect entry level performance. Whatever you opt for, the more features it has, the more potential it has. The rest is up to you!

Most of the local racers at our track have moved away from the X12 as it gets hot, can blow up easy and generally is not any faster than any other motor. SP is starting to take over.

I can imagine teh X12 may would be good for 0 timing racing though.

Mike
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Old 10-26-2010, 03:27 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
Running a BL motor at temps exceeding the mfgs' guidance can melt the coating on the stator wires and cause the wires to short out; in addition, high timing blasts can intermittently overheat the motor. This type of overheating can not be checked with a temp meter and can damage the stator and demag the rotor.
This just doesn't make any sense. You (Novak) can specify a temperature (manufacturers guidance) that should not be exceeded, but you cannot not give your users/customers a tool or other information that will allow users/customers to meet that guidance/requirement. You are only providing information that results in users trying to guess if their motor is overheating.

So, your advice is, "Don't run it too hot", whatever that is. Just curious, what is your number for temperature which is not to be exceeded and is it different for each motor type/wind you produce?
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Old 10-26-2010, 04:05 PM   #27
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This just doesn't make any sense. You (Novak) can specify a temperature (manufacturers guidance) that should not be exceeded, but you cannot not give your users/customers a tool or other information that will allow users/customers to meet that guidance/requirement. You are only providing information that results in users trying to guess if their motor is overheating.

So, your advice is, "Don't run it too hot", whatever that is. Just curious, what is your number for temperature which is not to be exceeded and is it different for each motor type/wind you produce?
All of our BL motor instructions contain temp guidance and always have---generally not to exceed 175 degrees. Here is a notice linked from the front page of our web site dated October 2008:

Quote:
NOTICE TO NOVAK BRUSHLESS MOTOR USERS

Novak motors have been designed to handle the rigors of any form of electric racing, from touring cars to off-road trucks and buggies.
Through multiple forms of testing, customer reports and inspection of damaged motors, we have determined that the maximum external safe operating temperature for Novak brushless motors is 175 F (80 C). Motors that run at higher temperatures have sustained internal damage.
This internal damage can render the motor inoperable if you continue to run it and will ultimately result in burned or melted coil(s) inside the motor. This type of damage to the motor is not covered under Novak’s product warranty.
From our testing and experience, keeping the external motor operating temperature under 160 F (72 C) will provide the best performance when the car is handling well. At this temperature, the motors’ racing life will last a long time and should require only occasional replacement of the bearings and rotors.

Precaution about Advanced Timing:
Use of Novak brushless motors with ESCs that have advance motor timing can result in excessive current draw, which will increase the motor temperature above the safe operating temperature. As most of these ESCs do not have a thermal overload protection for motors, continued operation will result in internal damage to the brushless motor.

This type of damage is not covered under the product’s warranty.

Precaution about Over-Gearing:
Motor temperature is the ONLY way to properly set the vehicle gearing. Over gearing the motor will result in excessive operating temperatures, which may result in internal damage. This type of damage is not covered under the product’s warranty.

All Novak Motors are hand-wound, assembled and tested at the Novak’s facility in Irvine, Calif. Each motor (yes, 100%) is meticulously inspected and tested for internal shorts, as well as run extensively before final packaging.

Please follow these important operating temperature guidelines.

Thank you.
Novak Electronics, Inc.
Our new Kinetics have a feature that allows you to check motor temp after a run---on-board temperature diagnostics.
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Old 10-26-2010, 08:42 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by PDX-Spike View Post
This just doesn't make any sense. You (Novak) can specify a temperature (manufacturers guidance) that should not be exceeded, but you cannot not give your users/customers a tool or other information that will allow users/customers to meet that guidance/requirement. You are only providing information that results in users trying to guess if their motor is overheating.

So, your advice is, "Don't run it too hot", whatever that is. Just curious, what is your number for temperature which is not to be exceeded and is it different for each motor type/wind you produce?
actually novak does give you a tool, after a run I simply plug my esc in to my netbook, and I get temps for the motor and esc.

each motor has a different temp range that is "ok" novak says 175, I have gotten there motors over 200 and killed the rotor, the x12 its just getting started at 200 and doesn't mine it at all, its not faster, just prefers a diff temp range, I remember back when SP released the first 10.5 motor they said the hotter the better, well up to a point, ( the first 10.5 was a turd). when properly tuned 2s sedan with or without boost i like to be around 150. my 1s cars don't even get warm to the touch.

wow, talk about off track and subject..
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Old 10-27-2010, 01:43 AM   #29
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As another example, a Novak 17.5 SS is a 130ish watt motor with out of the box timing, while an LRP X12 17.5 is a 180ish watt motor with the same out of the box timing.

!
Hi, where are you getting these 130 and 180 watt ratings from?

I'm can find both at 2200kv according to manufacturers specs.
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Old 10-27-2010, 03:46 AM   #30
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Hi, where are you getting these 130 and 180 watt ratings from?

I'm can find both at 2200kv according to manufacturers specs.
Finally...someone who questions the numbers manufacturers post.

There is no standard industry method or rating the watt output of a motor. Companies can claim whatever they want.

I do applaud NOVAK for at least giving us the variables of how they get their watt specs.

I do not claim any watt specs on my motors. If I claim lets say 150 watts, and another brand claims 270 watts, instead of questioning the data, most people think that the supposed 270 watt motor is faster!!!

Silly people.

My 550 watt 17.5 motor and 120c battery make my car the fastest!!!

LOL.

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