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Old 02-04-2010, 08:19 PM   #31
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A track that's about 1.5 hours from me has a spec/stock class that's working out pretty good. They race the Losi mini late model cars.

The only changes allowed to the cars are shocks, diff and radio. And for the ones that want to run a brushless setup have to use a specific motor/esc to stay legal. Everything else has to be box stock (including the tires) with a max battery of 1600nimh, no lipos.
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Old 02-04-2010, 09:33 PM   #32
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Default Stock Class ESC Basic Revealed!

you are all fear of timing too much

let's get transparent now.

There is no non timing, and never will be.
even Sensorless have timing, without it, it will have cogging effect.

Timing is delicious.

What do you all think about
running brushless motor rather brushed motor ?
we are leaving Brushed for stock class right ?

Old Stock rules is old, the new Stock rules is now

The solution is All Brushless ESC should allow Updatability Software/firmware.

By allowing Brushless ESC Updatability Timing issue is no more.
By allowing Software Update, any factory/developers
compete to build the best
software/firmware for their ESC.
Timing Adjustment is a must on software.

This way, all updates can be spread around the world.
You just Simply Download them.

The only thing to think about Stock rules is

********************
- Brushless Motor Turn/kV
- and Power Batteries.
which will cost more so we have to limit this.
********************

------------>
Software Updates, and Software Timing,
can be considered cheap,
almost no cost for this.
and the best technology
For new Brushless Stock.
------------>

This is the secrets
=================
Benefit on Updatability software/firmware Sensored Brushless ESC
Allow us to run :
- Brushed Motor
- Brushless Motor Sensored
- Brushless Motor Sensoreless
- Incoming Slotless Brushless Motor Sensored
- Incoming Slotless Brushless Motor Sensoreless
=================

So
Brushless ESC non Updatability is the Expensive one.
And
Timing adjustment software is our new Stock class freedom.
.
.
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:22 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Advil View Post
Spec racing isn't cheap. Stock racing isn't cheap. Modified racing isn't cheap... Seems like if we want more average Joe's to race it needs to be cheap and easy to handle for novices...

The number of bodies in the class is what rules...just ask the Manufacturers. Their money is in the numbers.
If the spec racing was done as I described above, it would be as cheap as ROAR wanted it to be. The entire point of my proposal is to create something cheap and easy to handle for novices. The dude who mentioned a Slash type series/class, but for on-road had it right.
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Old 02-05-2010, 08:36 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
I'm waiting for "better drivers" and perhaps "talent in a can".

For someone just coming into the hobby, will they buy it? Unlikely, unless it is mandated. What is the most asked question by newbies? "What is the fastest car/motor/etc?"

Again, unless it is mandated, how many people running 17.5 now are willing to downgrade their Tekin/LRP, etc. ESCs to a combo like this? Not many, I'd bet.
Finally someone said what I feel. We all want to go fast and we look for all advantages.

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Old 02-05-2010, 09:03 AM   #35
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I think the main problem has been using the term "cheap". Cheap is trying to do what we do with some internet foreign knockoff or Toys R Us/Radioshack vehicle. We should be using the term "affordable". Many want to have some of the products "affordable" so that some that are on the fringe could be swayed to join us racing r/c cars instead of flying kites, buying golf clubs, etc. Right now, alot of what we do is not "affordable" to the folks whose disposable incomes have shrank dramatically since the economic collapse of a year and a half ago. Traxxas has been spearheading having "affordable" offroad stuff but very little has been done on the onroad side of the equation. You can get a Slash, a decent charger, and a couple of NiMH packs to get going for under $300 (now only one pack because Traxxas give you one in the kit). Only HPI/HB even have onroad kits that you can package up in that price range (Cyclone S/E10/Sprint).

Now, as far as Spec racing, many of us more established guys is the main reason why it fails or is not very successful. Spec racing is for the new person or the racers that are on limited budgets and don't mind having to buy Brand X tire, Brand Y body, or Brand Z motor. You never hear them complain (they know what their costs will be). The main complaints I see come from the established guys that seem to want to run in the class when they don't really need to be there. Some complain about equipment used for the class even though they have no intent to run in it. If you don't like "spec" don't run in it and continue to run in whatever class you are participating at your venue. Spec class can be successful if all the chefs stay out of the pot.
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Old 02-05-2010, 09:34 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by JLock View Post
Now, as far as Spec racing, many of us more established guys is the main reason why it fails or is not very successful. Spec racing is for the new person or the racers that are on limited budgets and don't mind having to buy Brand X tire, Brand Y body, or Brand Z motor.
Yes, you are exactly right. If you remember (not sure how old you are) stock class racing was supposed to be for this purpose all along...as you stated, it did not work out that way. This is why I proposed that the whole spec class thing be focused as a newcomer class, and not just another stock.

The Problem® isn't that stock racing is too serious and expensive, it's that there's no good on-road beginner class that addresses those issues. Personally, I think that 10th scale pan cars would be great, but these have proven to not be popular, so I abandoned that crusade 15 years ago

Stock is what it is...the more serious guys will win, and much money will be spent. We're trying to focus on new people with this, and to that end, part of what I proposed includes excluding drivers who race in other classes, at the discretion of the race director (the goal is to keep the vets out, not to hinder moving up).
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Old 02-05-2010, 10:07 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
Yes, you are exactly right. If you remember (not sure how old you are) stock class racing was supposed to be for this purpose all along...as you stated, it did not work out that way. This is why I proposed that the whole spec class thing be focused as a newcomer class, and not just another stock.

The Problem® isn't that stock racing is too serious and expensive, it's that there's no good on-road beginner class that addresses those issues. Personally, I think that 10th scale pan cars would be great, but these have proven to not be popular, so I abandoned that crusade 15 years ago

Stock is what it is...the more serious guys will win, and much money will be spent. We're trying to focus on new people with this, and to that end, part of what I proposed includes excluding drivers who race in other classes, at the discretion of the race director (the goal is to keep the vets out, not to hinder moving up).
To answer the age statement, I am in my early 40s and have been seriously racing for over a decade. I know what you mean as far as what "stock" has evolved into today. It is now lightyears away from what the original concept was suppose to be. And, you are right; we have lost focus on the new racers and trying to attract them to the sport of r/c racing. I suggested mentoring new racers (I have done it personally on occasions) as a way to help retain them once they cross into the racing realm from bashing (another topic for another thread?). "Stock" will never be stock again. It is looking like "spec" will be the new "stock" for this millenium.
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Old 02-05-2010, 10:25 AM   #38
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The Tamiya Championship Series is about the best, longest lasting spec racing I've seen.

It can be done. But it can only be done by a single manufacturer - ROAR can't be baised like that. So don't look to ROAR for the "spec class" answer.
TCS racing is pretty damned good and it's why I stuck with the brand for so long...BUT....when I started a club, I realised the one biggest factor in RC purchases was the chassis. And honestly there were to many good ones to limit things to just Tamiya. Also,in my area of Florida, support for Tamiya products was almost non-existant. I also realised that of all the equipment in RC, the chassis is the the best one NOT to spec. Example: A used XXX-S with a good driver vs. a lesser skilled driver with a TC5. Driver experience/skill wins every time given every thing else being at a similar level.

But I digress....the bottom line...your statement is close enough....there should be an organisation that looks out for "stock" level racing unlike ROAR which has too large a responsibility given the current technology and HUGE disparity in performance between all classes.....unlike in the far past when ROAR was created. Maybe it's time to divide the resources and let people put their allegiance and interest where they wish. As for manufacturer input...strictly by choice. A company like Corally may have no real interest in having an active say in "stock" class because the majority of their end users won't typically be racing at that level. An electronics company is the same.

So.....whats stopping us ??
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Old 02-05-2010, 10:27 AM   #39
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For those concerned about sensored motor timing adjustments in "spec/stock" classes; our spec motors can be epoxy sealed, so that timing adjustments and rotor/bearing replacements (and re-manufacturing/exchanges) are no longer possible.

Sealed motors would then be disposable. However, these spec motors paired with a spec controller should be very long lasting. We could offer certain winds in both our SS Pro and Ballistic motors with fixed timing if that's what it takes to provide spec systems, built according to national guidelines.
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Old 02-05-2010, 10:46 AM   #40
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About the only way you could get ROAR to work well with a spec motor is for "ROAR" brand motors from a company such as Novak. You want to run in the spec class, then you buy the motor from ROAR themselves. ROAR contracts the motor company to make them the only legal motor.

ROAR makes more money to advertise, promote the hobby and such, and in turn ROAR could also distribute to retailers that are ROAR tracks making the whole industry healthy.

Imagine all the complaints from racers about that?
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Old 02-05-2010, 11:41 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
For those concerned about sensored motor timing adjustments in "spec/stock" classes; our spec motors can be epoxy sealed, so that timing adjustments and rotor/bearing replacements (and re-manufacturing/exchanges) are no longer possible.

Sealed motors would then be disposable. However, these spec motors paired with a spec controller should be very long lasting. We could offer certain winds in both our SS Pro and Ballistic motors with fixed timing if that's what it takes to provide spec systems, built according to national guidelines.
Sounds great! Call up a car OEM and work on a package to propose!
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Old 02-05-2010, 11:44 AM   #42
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To answer the age statement, I am in my early 40s and have been seriously racing for over a decade. I know what you mean as far as what "stock" has evolved into today. It is now lightyears away from what the original concept was suppose to be. And, you are right; we have lost focus on the new racers and trying to attract them to the sport of r/c racing. I suggested mentoring new racers (I have done it personally on occasions) as a way to help retain them once they cross into the racing realm from bashing (another topic for another thread?). "Stock" will never be stock again. It is looking like "spec" will be the new "stock" for this millenium.
Cool...I'm 42 my self. I'm actually just now getting back into it, but I was way into it in the late 90's. I only got so involved in this conversation because when I read this thread (and a couple others) I was shocked (or maybe not surprised at all...can you be both?) that this exact same conversation is _still_ going on. It was going on in the 80's too, but there was no Internet to give it such a voice.

re: mentoring...that is awesome. I do the same thing. Well, I did, and I will again. I've built entire kits with people, helped with setups, loaned motors, let people drive my cars, and more. The way I look at it, the more people who get into the hobby, the better the racing is, the better shops do, the more tracks can thrive, etc. etc.

Viva the novices!
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